Monday, September 5, 2011

Is There Room For False Prophecy or "Inaccuracy" Among Modern Day Prophets?

Deut. 18:18-2218-I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19-And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20-But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21-And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22-When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

Known all around the country as Prophet Brian Carn, Brian Carn has taken the evangelism circuit by storm. On almost any website you will find that this "prophet" as he believes himself to be called, is said to not only be a true man of God, but also deliver what are called "prophetic utterances" with complete accuracy.

Now, be clear, the purpose of this post is not to impugn the character of Prophet Carn. By all accounts he is a godly and saved man and THANK GOD
that is a refreshing change from too many within modern circles of evangelism. However, truth statements are subject to criticism and ANY statement claiming to be truth should be examined closely especially when one is claiming that the truth statement is coming from God himself.

In the following video, done in Memphis, TN, sometime after May 2nd. 2011, Prophet Carn delivers prophecies where he "foretells" the future. The first part of the video he is dealing with the church to whom he is sent and it's leadership making certain statements. However, I will draw your attention to the latter part of the statements where Prophet Carn delivers some 18 prophecies which I will outline below the video.

1- Plane falling out of the sky, but they are "planes" of tornadoes all thorough Chicago, Indiana, Virginia and Baltimore.  
On or about May 22nd 2011, Tornadoes actually hit Joplin, MO., Kansas, Oklahoma, Ark., Illinois, Indiana all the way up to Minneapolis, MN. There were about 70 various warnings during this period of time.  Wikepedia reports that there were 370 tornadoes in the US, in May alone, 314 of which were confirmed. HERE. Baltimore was actually hit before the prophecy in April 2011.
2- "I see a series of storms and tornadoes back to back."
3- "God will open a door that cannot be shut."
4- God said that there shall be a change in government
5- A man shall come out of "nowhere" in our government and we will wonder his origins. He will "twist the politics" of our country.
6- Even though people are currently rejoicing at the death of Osama bin Laden we yet don't know what shall come upon this country.
7- The US shall suffer "calamity after calamity" and "disease after disease"
8- Hospitals will "go on strike" refusing to work because there will be too many people that will need healthcare.
9- There will be a death that will send the country into shock. Calamity.
10- There will be a funeral in America of a major politician. he sees "flag half mast" and "pray for the President"
11- Out of these calamities God will raise up a people who are called by HIS name.
12- God will raise up a wife, raise up a bride who will do whatever he tells her to do.
13- God will raise up a people who will take a "prison number" from heaven and will be "God's prisoner" and those that obey HIM the "storms will jump over their house"
14- We will see these things, "not many days hence"
15- We will see a change in the weather. (remember he is speaking in early May, 2011) America will suffer "a quick winter" a "winter will hit before winter" (to date the summer of 2011 is one of the hottest on record and summer is past and the country has experienced no unusual cold or abbreviated summer season. This part of the prophecy can be judged to be inaccurate.)
16- Calamity after calamity, we have yet to see the destruction that will hit our city (speaking to Memphis)
17- Cars in floods floating down the street:  This occurred May 17th 2011 in Memphis, TN. 
18- An NBA Basketball player will die suddenly or get killed. ( I only suppose that this will happen before end of 2011)
Reconciliation Of The Prophetic Utterance

Now there is much debate as to what prophecy and the gift of prophecy is under the New Testament paradigm. Some say that it is limited to "forth-telling" the of God as opposed to "for-telling" the future or presenting secrets and revealing purposes only known to God. I believe that prophecy can go either way and there is not enough scriptural evidence to exclude either forth-telling or fore-telling.

Now, if the Lord is speaking we can expect that NONE of the prophecies are incorrect, or inaccurate; or can we? we can obviously see that some of the prophetic utterance spoken by Brian Carn is inaccurate and some of it has not come to pass within the current time frame. Then we have no clue as to what significance spiritually that the death of a Basketball player has but we acquiest...

Questions For Discussion

I changed the title to the post in an attempt to clarify what is being said. I would hold that anything "inaccurate" is also ultimately false. Does the modern prophet have leeway or wiggle room for inaccuracy, especially since none of what is "prophesied" is canonical? Does failure to prophecy 100% accurately, prove a character flaw or some other problem in the life of the prophet? Can a "prophet" miss and yet be anointed and directed of God?



  1. I was just thinking to myself that how many times can a Prophet miss his predictions before we no longer take him seriously? That was prior to reading this.

  2. Vaughn,

    That's the thought and consideration here...Can one who is speaking under the inspiration of the Lord miss the mark?

    I just don't believe so.

    When one has, should we take him seriously?

    I guess the question is, why is he/she missing? If they are suspect in this area of their calling, then they are suspect in all areas aren't they?

    I mean I am not trying to besmirch the character of the person as I don't think this is a character issue, but I wonder if people sometimes speak when GOd hasn't spoken. One thing is sure, his insight regarding summer and a quick winter is flat out wrong. If that is a part of the who episode where he speaks for God, how can we be confident of any other part?

    Now, I have been used by God to speak into the life of others, but I don't think I've ever missed the mark or spoken of some generality that was inaccurate such as this...I don't know...

  3. I'm sorry, but another thing that strikes me is the presentation of what a "bride" or "wife" is according the prophecy...She is someone who will do "anything" she's told???

    If that's God's view of a spouse, my wife didn't get that memo-LOL!!!

    And aren't we already dealing with issues as a result of politicians "twisting" the political system? You mean the system is not twisted now???

  4. While reading through 1 Samuel chapter 3 last week, verse 19 jumped off the page – I have never noticed it before, and I’ve read the Samuel books several times. The prophet Samuel or any prophets never had wiggle room, so why should it be extended to any New Testament prophet. God’s prophets are and were never hit or miss; either God is speaking or He is not-period. Let God be true and every man a liar. See the 3 versions of the same scripture below, and read that prophetic words given by Samuel were flawless throughout his entire ministry. New Testament prophets or prophetic wannabes, please take note~

    Samuel 3:19-21 (NKJ)
    19 So Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him and let none of his words fall to the ground. 20 And all Israel from Dan to Beersheba knew that Samuel had been established as a prophet of the LORD. 21 Then the LORD appeared again in Shiloh. For the LORD revealed Himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.

    1 Samuel 3:18-21 (The Message)
    19-21 Samuel grew up. GOD was with him, and Samuel's prophetic record was flawless. Everyone in Israel, from Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south, recognized that Samuel was the real thing—a true prophet of GOD. GOD continued to show up at Shiloh, revealed through his word to Samuel at Shiloh.

    1 Samuel 3:18-21 (Amplified Bible)
    18And Samuel told him everything, hiding nothing. And Eli said, It is the Lord; let Him do what seems good to Him 19Samuel grew; the Lord was with him and let none of his words fall to the ground.(A) 20And all Israel from Dan to Beersheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of the Lord. 21And the Lord continued to appear in Shiloh, for the Lord revealed Himself to Samuel in Shiloh through the word of the Lord.

  5. Letters From Lady D,

    Now, I agree, but what should our position be towards these? I mean we can clearly point to the fact that part of this "prophecy" was false while other parts came to pass rather quickly...Still other parts haven't been revealed in time yet.

    How are we to handle the prophet? Should he be rebuked, encouraged or marginalized?

    I just can't see God being wrong IF he is speaking.

  6. Pastor this is where church leadership has to have discernment, courage and the boldness to confront those that are leading people astray. When have we ever known God to be half wrong and half right?
    Our example is the written Word of God and He gives clear instructions on how to deal with false prophets, and the half right prophets fall in the same category. I do understand that some people are really sincere and think that they are giving a prophetic word; but sounding good, giving partial information and throwing in a “hondaheyheyhey” does not a prophet make. Church leadership has to bring correction in truth and love, and if the person will not repent and turn; then the church has the responsibility not to associate with the false prophet. Thereby saving many souls and setting a true example of godly leadership~

  7. Well, "scratch a lie, find a thief",...

    One thing is certain. A person must work some things out BEFORE one hits the circuit and evangelizes all around the world and nation.

    Young minister, elder, friend looking to move out in ministry and be used of the Lord...DIG DEEP first! Get these issues worked out BEFORE you get out there.

    Look, if you know you have a nature that is difficult to contain sexually, you may first want to pursue having a wife and making her a part of your ministry team so you can travel together. Instead of the alternative of being a whore on the road...

    At age 19 I was evangelizing before congregations of over 1,000 or more. I was single. In 1985 I decided to get married. I needed to get married from a personal and spiritual standpoint. I had to learn how to get a job and support a family...After all these years (28 of them) through mistakes, sins, and setbacks (which are all different things) I am much better because of it...

    If ministers want to hear God for the people and the nation, they must FIRST hear God for themselves. Instead of peeping and muttering, open your eyes and look plainly at scripture. It has the power to deliver, save and set free.

  8. Letters From Lady D,

    You're 100% correct...there is no room for incorrect info coming from God "supposedly" under the guidance of his Spirit.

    The problem is that the new church says, "that's OK, everybody makes mistakes"

    They seem to be at a loss when it comes to the move of God. It could be because they believe that the bible is full of mistakes also. I mean these weak critics have delivered a steady diet of that mess and it has trickled down to weak pastors and leaders who have spoon fed the same garbage to the people.

    Look at Rob Bell. Who would have ever thought we'd argue over the realness of hell or heaven for that matter? I mean I know of a FACT that Creflo Dollar prophesied FALSELY to a woman with child saying that she would have a son. This was under the "inspiration of the Holy Ghost" She had a DAUGHTER!

    Did he admit a false utterance or not hearing from God? PLEASE!!!

    I mean, as much stuff that is on video, I believe we can go back through most of the "prophets" and others and examine their word, just like this and find either mistakes, inconsistencies or lies, and most of these are so eager to be on video it's pathetic...Look at what Carn said at the end, I hope this is on tape or video etc...I mean I've never seen people that want their false saying documented so bad as this generation of preacher does.

    Many of these folk are speaking out of their own spirit and are not hearing from God, this is why the church is in the horrible condition that it is in today.

  9. Maybe the good "prophet" should have read Matthew 24 before attempting to sensationalize the service that Sunday morning. Nothing he "prophesied" concerning the weather and disease is new. Jesus said these things will happen in the last days shortly before His 2nd Coming. These events won't just occur in the US, the effects will be GLOBAL.

    The "prophecy" about a man coming out of nowhwere to take over our gov't is nothing new. He's describing the Antichrist, a person already described and prophesied in detail in the books of Daniel, Peter and Revelation. The inaccurate description of the AC by "Prophet" Carn is that the AC won't just take over the US gov't. He will rule GLOBALLY, ushering in the New World Order/One World Gov't and his Code 666.

    As far as the NBA player being killed, what does this have to do with the Church? Why should we care, really? And as for a funeral held for a major politician, won't be the first time this country has done this. The last one was Ted Kennedy in August 2009. And of course we should pray for Pres. Obama. No need to remind us and no need to hint that his life is in danger. It's been in danger the minute he announced his candidacy for President being the first black man to do so.

    I question the need for modern day prophets. Everything we need to know as the people of God can be found in the 66 books of the Bible. Everything we need to know concerning Biblical prophecy on world events is already there. Daniel, the Gospels, Peter and Revelation contain specific prophecies that will and are affecting the world today. Unless a "prophet" says something new that currently isn't in the Bible and that Word comes directly from the mouth of God (with careful review and confirmation from members of the Body who are gifted in these matters) I am inclined not to pay them any heed. Most of these "prophets" aren't telling me anything I don't already know. Where were all the "prophets" when 9/11 happened? How come nobody foresaw this tragic event?

    1. All I can say is Amen. In my time of prayer, especially lately, I have cried out (literally) saying God I know there has to be a residue of brothers and sisters out there somewhere not falling for these lies; those who reverence you enough to strive daily to walk upright before you and not passing off these gimmicks of beguile.

      At times, I feel like the church is being "snuffed out."

    2. They try but they fail miserably every time. Do you see the level of exposure that these false prophets are receiving? Some die, others sins are poured out openly before everyone and they run into the roach holes from whence they came...Thank God for that!!!!

  10. I was wondering where this post was going when I first read it, I had seen this clip before and this man vexes my spirit.
    His prophecies are so hodgepodge, UNLESS he is talking money, then he has the amount, knows your account numbers and how much you have... so he says I have yet to see that video.
    No there is no wiggle room. These prophecies are not cohesively going somewhere, and really anybody could've made these statements if they read their Bible - these are the last days. The rest sounds like paraphrases of something he heard on CNN from the weather, political, and health news segments thrown in for good measure. He touched on every basic concern the average person could have to incite fear, and not fear of God, but our human scared of thunder, scared to fly, scared the republicans will get in office, scared I don't have flood insurance on my house. Carn definitely understands that the classic prophets did not bring rainbows and lollipops prophecies, but he leads out talking about money, and closes out with his love token/seed, everything in between is fluff.

  11. Generic prophecies can be taken any way necessary to serve the need at the immediate time. I'm afraid that's what we're seeing all too often and yes they tend to center around and be highly accurate when it comes to money.

    Then there's the "out" that they have...They normally do a Jonah...They say, "well I know I said this, BUT you did this or God did that and therefore it changed"

    So at that rate they can prophesy destruction, then when destruction doesn't come, they can go back and say, "You must have repented or done something to appease God"...There is no attachment to the prophetic utterance.

    Now, I believe in prophecy, both forth telling and foretelling primarily for a few reasons among others...

    1- God has used me to do it. However it is his gift and he has instructed me with some specifity as to how to use it when I do and the point of emphasis is dramatically different than most of what I see among modern so called "prophets".

    2- We've experienced it among witnesses. About 14 years ago, we were seeking children and my wife was told she could not have one. What became one of our best friends came from another city and we met for the first time. He would later deliver a word to my wife that God would open her womb and that we would have children. Well 14 years and 2 children later we can say that after a short time, it certainly came to pass by the hand of the Lord against the medical diagnosis that we had received.

    3- There is no scriptural warrant that God does not use prophecy as a means of speaking to or edifying the body of believers today. We are told to despise not prophesyings (1 Thess. 5:20) so we must know that although it isn't an essential for our life so far as salvation is concerned, it is a gift that God does and can exercise to our benefit.

    We've got to push past the charlatans however into the purpose of GOd, because he can use and tool in his arsenal to drive the devil away. Now, ALL things should be judged by and according to the word of God as we are endeavoring to do here and I believe that is the key to any spiritual gifting.

  12. I received this message from a person that knows about Carn's ministry better than I do:

    "Pastor, didn't want to put Carn on blast, but he's popular because he raises large offerings. Nothing more, nothing less. His reputation is less than stellar. My problem with ALL the COGIC pastors that have him at their churches, sometimes for a month, have no discernment. However, the love of money has and always be the root of evil. In my opinion, he like most "profits" are charlatans, seeking out the next " meeting," to gut the saints pockabooks and give them vague prophecies. There's one that comes to my former church every year and I truly believe she operates out of a spirit of divination. Wouldn't be surprised if the same holds true for Carn, et al."

    Unrighteousness will cause a mix of true and false words and scriptural interpretations. This is sad.

  13. Honestly Pastor Burnett, I doubt Carn has the benefit of a spirit of divination. Its pure speculation and emotionalism - like Steve Martin in Leap of Faith. Because unfortunately too many church folk are already right for the plucking with their lack of knowledge of the Word and of God.
    On YouTube people think he "forth told" on Eddie Long. I just think Long maybe patted his behind one too many times on the church B-Ball courts or propositioned him some kinda way, the awkward situation played back in his subconscious, but now he has a vision or dream to share with the people.

  14. @ my sister, LaPreghiera, in a sense you can indeed call it a spirit of divination. Pastor Harvey pointed out that he has prophesied on occasion himself, as well has had prophecy spoken over his life and family. In these cases, God was moving in a specific way for a specific reason and to specific people and that's when you don't despise the gift of prophecy as the Word says.

    Consider this. Charlatans like Carn and those who title themselves as Prophet So and So and Prophetess So and So, often do so outside of the power of the Holy Spirit. We know this from testing the spirits as the Word instructs. What they "prophesy" is (a) nothing new because the either the Bible already predicts it and it's already happening or has happened, and is (b) false because if it's something new, most times what they say doesn't come to pass. That's the test of a true prophet. If it's God speaking through him or her, what they say will happen 100% of the time AND the prophecy will happen BEFORE the event occurs, not during or after. Any prophet or prophetess who operates otherwise comes under a spirit of divination, meaning they are operating outside the will and purpose of God. God equates this with the sin of rebellion.
    1 Samuel 15:23 (NIV)
    For REBELLION is like the sin of DIVINATION (witchcraft), and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
    I think it's a little bit more than just emotionalism for "prophet" Carn.

  15. Brian Carn is a straight up false prophet

    Watch 1:28-1:35..then fast forward to 1:50

  16. I assume this is a Rhetorical question? LOL!

  17. Jerry, those of us that know the truth certainly, but for some of this modern generation, they think that God can be wrong at sometimes and still be God.

  18. djenk23,

    Now in that world sowing the seed, is what was going to break the yoke of addiction off of the life of the 2 men (brother figures) that he said she was concerned about....He saw a city-Houston and the state of Texas...then he went on to call her first name Gail and said sow the seed.

    The problem I have is associating the blessing of God with the giving of money...So God won't bless if you're broke??? He can't and won't break yokes if you have not a seed? C'mon, that's garbage!

  19. God didnt reveal the woman's name and city to Carn...he read it off her check...

  20. Keep studying Pastor Burnett you will soon come to an understanding that God is not speaking anymore because His word is complete....

    God spoke (past tense) "at times" by the prophets but now He has spoken (past tense) by His Son.

    "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." Hebrews 1:1-2

    God gave us the word through His Son Jesus Christ whom he appointed heir of all things. Meaning He had authority to speak for God.

    These hucksters of the word running around today "profits" do not speak for God but speak for themselves and their unending love for popularity and money.

    This subject reminds me of a passage in Jeremiah 28:

    Hananiah the False Prophet

    1In that same year, at the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, in the fifth month of the fourth year, Hananiah the son of Azzur, the prophet from Gibeon, spoke to me in the house of the LORD, in the presence of the priests and all the people, saying, 2"Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: I have broken the yoke of the king of Babylon. 3 Within two years I will bring back to this place all the vessels of the LORD’s house, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon took away from this place and carried to Babylon. 4I will also bring back to this place Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, and all the exiles from Judah who went to Babylon, declares the LORD, for I will break the yoke of the king of Babylon."
    5Then the prophet Jeremiah spoke to Hananiah the prophet in the presence of the priests and all the people who were standing in the house of the LORD, 6and the prophet Jeremiah said, "Amen! May the LORD do so; may the LORD make the words that you have prophesied come true, and bring back to this place from Babylon the vessels of the house of the LORD, and all the exiles. 7Yet hear now this word that I speak in your hearing and in the hearing of all the people. 8 The prophets who preceded you and me from ancient times prophesied war, famine, and pestilence against many countries and great kingdoms. 9 As for the prophet who prophesies peace, when the word of that prophet comes to pass, then it will be known that the LORD has truly sent the prophet."

    10Then the prophet Hananiah took the yoke-bars from the neck of Jeremiah the prophet and broke them. 11And Hananiah spoke in the presence of all the people, saying, "Thus says the LORD: Even so will I break the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon from the neck of all the nations within two years." But Jeremiah the prophet went his way.

    12Sometime after the prophet Hananiah had broken the yoke-bars from off the neck of Jeremiah the prophet, the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 13"Go, tell Hananiah, 'Thus says the LORD: You have broken wooden bars, but you have made in their place bars of iron. 14For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: I have put upon the neck of all these nations an iron yoke to serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and they shall serve him, for I have given to him even the beasts of the field.'" 15And Jeremiah the prophet said to the prophet Hananiah, "Listen, Hananiah, the LORD has not sent you, and you have made this people trust in a lie. 16Therefore thus says the LORD: 'Behold, I will remove you from the face of the earth. This year you shall die, because you have uttered rebellion against the LORD.'"

    17In that same year, in the seventh month, the prophet Hananiah died.

    I don't believe commentary is needed....

  21. BrDavision,

    I understand what you are trying to say, but saying it as you said it is a dangerous thing if not placed in context.

    First, God is YET speaking today. He has never left himself without a witness. His witness now is INTERNAL and that witness is ETERNAL. He cannot reside within, without speaking in our modern day context and to modern day issues.

    Secondly, he has instituted offices which not only "forth-tell" his word and intentions, but also reveal and "fore-tell" his interventions. The witness of the scripture is clear, that these things or ministries, were to exist until we all come to "perfection" and into the "unity of the faith"

    Ephes. 4:11-16 ~ "11-And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12-For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

    Step 1- Therefore the purpose of the ministry is revealed.

    13-Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:14-That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15-But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

    Step 2- Therefore the process of the ministry is revealed. we make steps toward perfection or maturity but that is a work in progress...

    16-From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

    Step 3- Therefore the ultimate of what the ministry brings is revealed.

    Now, these aspects of the church in its totally will not be fulfilled until the "glorious church" appears without spot, wrinkle, blemish or any such thing. (Ephes. 5:27) that will not be until he has received it unto himself say from this present world.

    If that is the case, and I think all reasonable people can agree, this means that all of the categories of ministry should and will be in full effect until such time as the church is received by Christ himself.

    There are people who do all the works or aspects of the ministerial offices. Some say there are no modern Apostles, however there are some who do modern Apostolic work...same with all offices of ministry outlined here.

    What does this mean? It means that though the Earth has received the witness of the WORD of God, it now has a witness that points back to that word in what it says, revealing truth to all generations, and bringing men to accountability by speaking in the here and now.

    So your intent is well understood in identifying persons who abuse the word of God for selfish gain, claiming that there is new revelation that has never heretofore been known regarding the nature and aspects of God and salvation.

  22. BrDavision,

    However the thoroughness of the statement is lacking in that 1- to say what God has finally spoken is highly debatable among men who have examined the scriptures many years prior to us and found that there is some variation of what should and shouldn't be included within that cannon, and more importantly 2,- to say that HE speaks no more is inaccurate. That's similar to a deist type assertion. "Speaking" is a work of the Holy Ghost speaking to men's hearts) until Jesus comes.

    Now, to be clear, the point I think you were getting this: There is no "new revelation" or "new information" concerning Christ, GOd and his word...

    As stated, there's a whole lesson on this aspect of what we call the "closing of the cannon of scripture" that can be taught, but I will only say that "men agreed" that the cannon should be closed based on the absence of true first generation Apostolic authority and voice. We know there is yet variance over exactly what is or should be included within the cannon of scripture or what we hold as the final authority of what God said.

    Now, none of what I have said demands that there is NO authentic prophet within the modern church and that that prophet cannot render and inject information into a situation that was previously unknown or could not be known by human means or intuition. When we stop believing that God can provide information about current situations that we did not previously know, or inject direction for which we have prayed and are seeking answers, we have erred and stopped believing in a very valuable "supernatural" tool that GOd has ordained.

    So please qualify your statements, especially when you ask me to "study more"...LOL!!! I think I may have done just a little bit of that...

  23. Another support for my primary assumption is

    1 Cor. 13:9-12 ~ 9-For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10-But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11-When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12-For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known"

    We live in this imperfection until Christ's return and we look through a dim glass (mirror) right now, but we are looking forward to his appearing and then, we will not need prophesying or anything else at that point, but until then, we better have a complete spiritual arsenal, because at times we need a supernatural intervention of both direction, and knowledge into our affairs.


  25. Even with all you wrote you cannot get around the simple passage of scripture I cited. So I'll post it again:

    "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke (past tense) to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken (past tense) to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." Hebrews 1:1-2

    How is it dangerous to stand on scripture alone? It is not dangerous now nor ever to only place ones confidence in scripture. Dangerous would be placing confidence in men....

    By the way you still have not given any evidence what so ever that these so called "Pentecostal" (which is an error in and of itself but I won't go there today. Besides the fruit of those who are pentecostal speaks for themselves anyways cogic, hinn, PAW, jakes, carn, and a host of other fakes) minstrels speak for God. If you can't see that Brian Carn is a straight up biblcally ignorant false prophet then there are other issues here....

  26. Brdavision,

    The reason I didn't go into your scripture, is because you've got it totally out of context...It is not applicable to the argument you're other words your point is logically incoherent!

    You interpret Hebrews saying that it proves that God has spoken finally and conclusively in all matters through Jesus and there is nothing else to say or give...That is PATENTLY false and deserves better than the grade school like treatment than you are giving let's go there for a minute because in order to make a choherent point you must.

    The Cannon only closed becuause of the absence of a living Apostolic witness as MEN agree. Hebrews confirms the authenticity of Jesus mission and message, but in no way intimates that the "speaking of GOd" whether by forthtelling or foretelling was concluded.

    Everything recorded in Acts and the Epistles was recorded AFTER Jesus had died and rose.

    What did the Living WORD say?

    Jn. 14:26~ But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    In other words the Holy Ghost has an ACTIVE roll in showing and teaching and bringing back to your rememberance things that Jesus said and showing one "all things". I don't see how that can be done unless HE is speaking now...Look further:

    Jn. 16:13-15~ "13-Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14-He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15-All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

    The Apostles were "shown things to come" and moved in Prophetic voices and utterances such as that with Annanias and Sappharia in Acts 5 when it was revealed to Peter the hearts of Annanias and Sappharia. (sp)

    I think that you really having nothing to debate except your eagerness to embarass yourself by trying to argue lame tenets of cessationist belief with me as if those things haven't been adequately dealt with. There is very little scriptural support for cessesation of spiritual gifts INCLUDING but not limited to Prophecy, and a good argument considers much more than the Hebrews passage.

    To support your tirade against all things Pentecostal, you have to superimpose a twisted worldview on the interpretation of scripture and be selcetive on what you include and don't include...either way, you offer nothing new and nothing not easily overcome...

    Stick to the topic PLEASE...

  27. The topic is that Brian Carn, offered incorrect words, saying that they were given to him by the Holy Ghost...God does not deal or deliver incorrect or false words except when a people have lust in their hearts and God allows them to be deceived:

    2 Chron 18:20-22~"20-Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? 21-And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. 22-Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee."

    2 Thess.2:9-12~"9-Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10-And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11-And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12-That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."(also see Rom. 1:28)

    And by the way, I can go as many places as I like to teach what I'm led to address on my site, especially when confusion such as yours is delivered for public consideration...If you make a truth claim, I can certainly challenge it as I did and your truth claim is inconsistent with scripture. So far as my right to do what I need to do, it shouldn't take the Holy Ghost to speak that to in that case you don't need a prophet to know that!

  28. Pt. 1
    Well, well…

    Can you say pass the popcorn and Pepsi please? LOL!!!

    Hmmm…I have only a few comments and a few questions, which will probably add up to only two cents…My purpose for posting is two-fold. First, I hope to help both of you meet at a cross connection and not talk past each other. Secondly, I’ll address our young Mr. Carn, as that is certainly the sub-theme of this posting. I believe youngest to eldest is the in order, so…


    In his discourse, Pastor B asked 3 pointed questions.

    Does the modern prophet have leeway or wiggle room for inaccuracy, especially since none of what is "prophesied" is canonical?
    Does failure to prophecy 100% accurately, prove a character flaw or some other problem in the life of the prophet?
    Can a "prophet" miss and yet be anointed and directed of God?

    Now, you did give a response that outlined your position, but you really didn’t answer his questions. All three have certain implications, and in answering them it would have been blatantly clear what your position was. For example, if you don’t believe in the “modern prophet” then answering question number one becomes quite easy. “I don’t believe prophets exist today because the office is no longer needed/biblically supported” or something to that effect. This would have provided a beautiful segue into the next two questions, which I’m sure would have further outlined where you stood. If you’ll notice, in his posting and subsequent comments the OP is not supporting the actions of young Mr. Carn, he is bringing them into question as a smaller portion of a broader query. In other words, Carn is an example of a so-called “prophet” who has obviously missed. In any other case, is this allowed? And then, does he have to be right all the time? And then, does this call into question if he is even saved or not and make him a liar when he proclaims to be a man of God?

    Honestly, I think the OP is showing his hand when he says statements like, “I would hold that anything "inaccurate" is also ultimately false…” and, “Can one who is speaking under the inspiration of the Lord miss the mark? I just don't believe so…” and, “I just can't see God being wrong IF he is speaking…”

    Brandon I just have one question for you my friend. Are you implying by your comment that the OP is in support of all of the charlatans that claim to speak for God and do not? It seems as such from your following statement:

    “By the way you still have not given any evidence what so ever that these so called "Pentecostal" (which is an error in and of itself but I won't go there today. Besides the fruit of those who are pentecostal speaks for themselves anyways cogic, hinn, PAW, jakes, carn, and a host of other fakes) minstrels speak for God. If you can't see that Brian Carn is a straight up biblically ignorant false prophet then there are other issues here....”

    Just remember that there are two separate sets of issues here. I don’t recall the OP stating that he was unclear as to whether people who are notable false teachers speak for God or not. We can readily assume by his previous writings how he feels about all of the individuals you named. The other issue is whether or not prophecy is for today, is the office of the prophet still valid, does God speak directly to humans extra-biblically, etc,.

    Soli Deo Gloria,


  29. Pt. 2

    I will also add that the OP and I have debated this topic and others quite passionately, and although I would disagree with him on certain matters he has shown to be not only a formidable opponent but a sincere brother on the essentials of the faith of our Savior. In fact, he has forayed into areas of apologetics not often inhabited by we who claim the name of Christ. I speak particularly of his work over at the abominable site, “Debunking Christianity”, in which he assayed to bring the light of Jesus into an extremely dark place. Just do a search for his name here:

    In short, even if you don’t agree with him on this issue I think that in terms of what the gospel implies he’s on our side.

    Soli Deo Gloria,


  30. Pt. 1
    Pastor B,

    Sir, I believe it to be unfair and a stretch to make the following claim:

    “There is very little scriptural support for cessation of spiritual gifts INCLUDING but not limited to Prophecy, and a good argument considers much more than the Hebrews passage.”

    That’s obviously a position that a continuationist would support. I don’t seek to debate you on this issue my friend, but perhaps you could make it a bit clearer to our brother brdavision by explaining how it could be possible that we have no modern apostolic witness who is NEVER INACCURATE, yet you still hold to the position that the prophetic and sign gifts are for today. I think the question at hand that Brandon may be asking is this;

    If we have a bunch of guys who miss it all of the time and disqualify their status of being a called “prophet” by your own definition, then by what voice other than scripture are we bound to heed? If you believe a guy gets it wrong every now and then, and you even wrestle with whether or not you get it right every time (“Now, I have been used by God to speak into the life of others, but I don't think I've ever missed the mark or spoken of some generality that was inaccurate such as this...I don't know...”) then how do we even trust the reliability of these things, especially when we consider the fallibility of man, the bent towards pride, arrogance and haughtiness and the propensity to create idol worship? And then, how many times do you have to miss it to be considered a false prophet? Once? Twice? When you haven’t had your coffee? When there was too much cheese on that ham sandwich?

    I’m just asking you to do what I know you can do. Draw our dear friend out as to make the interaction fruitful and edifying.

    Now to one Mr. Carn. You know, I’m old enough to remember when both R. Kelley and Aaron Hall started back in the 90’s. (Believe me, I’m going somewhere with this so stay on the train). Folks who had been around for some time knew that they both had a sound that was all to familiar to the Gap Band Maestro himself---Charlie Wilson. Kelley understood this, and in a bold attempt to distance himself from being accused of stealing another style and to make his own name, he reinvented his whole image. From a worldly perspective, you can say it worked because he became a household name. (From a Christian’s perspective, we realize that it set him on a trajectory to reveal his utter depravity and defiance of God and Christ, but that’s another story). And Hall? Well, I’m sure you get the picture of where his career went by his absence in the media. I mean, since the resurgence of Wilson on the scene, most old (and new) listeners would say, “Why listen to Aaron Hall when I can listen to Charlie Wilson?”.

    Soli Deo Gloria,


  31. Pt. 2

    My point is this. Early on in Mr. Carn’s preaching ministry, he invoked images in most folks’ mind of one Nathan Simmons. (Now, let me say parenthetically, speaking strictly from the standpoint of preaching and pulpiteers Pastor B, you and I both know that young Mr. Carn could not hold a candle to the late Dr. Simmons’ preaching in a crowded room in the daytime with the light on…Now, I know nothing of his life or character, but I have checked out his work on Youtube and I judge from there…Also another story). Realizing that preaching about holiness, righteousness, character, integrity and a life pleasing to the Lord was probably getting quite tired for young Mr. Carn, what did he do? He pulled an R. Kelley. He reinvented himself to suit the itching ears of this day and age. He now has his own style, his own stage, his own name and maybe even his own ticket to damnation. He is simply the remix of stage performing, attention grabbing, money hungry, rock-star celebrity pulpit pimps old and new, and any shred of integrity he has left is subject to be consumed in the fire that is fed by fame, crowd adulation and misplaced influence. I pray that if his intentions are motivated by fleshly desires that he repents and turns to God while he still has time.

    Well, off the soapbox now. Back to my movie theater seats in the back. Interested to hear both of your responses on the matter. Or, you might just ignore me altogether and keep dukin’ it out. Either way I’ll be busy keeping tabs on the conversation and enjoying the afterglow of our stomping of the Falcons this past weekend. GO BEARS!!!!

    Soli Deo Gloria,


  32. R4C,

    Thanks for your insights, I was able to post the comments on your behalf. I'll respond asap. Good insights however.

  33. This is a quite interesting dialogue or discussion (in case someone is in need of wielding the correction pen),

    Good insights R4C, really!!

  34. R4C,

    I understand what you are saying in that how are we to judge a supposed "prophet" in light of the fact of human fallibility...

    Now, I wonder if that is the correct approach. By that I mean, we are placing the burden on the Prophet to prove what he/she says to be true rather than placing the burden on the statements to rise and fall based on its accuracy.

    Now I would hold that a "prophet" speaking under the influence of the holy Ghost will be accurate 100% of the time, so I hope my position is clear on the issue...I don't claim to be a prophet but I have spoken into the lives of others and have not been inaccurate to my knowledge and that is at various times over 25 plus years of ministry...

    To simplify the issue, your statement suggests that the prophet is wrong until he is proven to be otherwise true, and that seems to be placed on his inability to be perfect.

    Whereas, the biblical prophet had no such standard of personal perfection but yet his words were hailed to be true, and ultimately came true.

    Example: Paul claims in Gal. 2:11-14 that had a conflict with what appears to be the hypocrisy of Peter. This is also recorded in Acts 15 with no mention of this particular "confrontation". In fact in Acts the hero seems to be Peter rather than Paul.

    Nevertheless, in his account Paul lays it out that Peter was to be blamed for not being fully honest regarding the controversy and correcting the Saints from the beginning regarding the issue.

    Now, if we are to believe Paul's account, which we are compelled to do, this displays at least a human imperfection in the life of Peter right?

    Now, does anyone question the word of the Lord from Peter as a result of his human imperfection, fault or apparent failure???

    His word and position as an Apostle is unquestioned even though he was humanly fallible. He is the same one that preformed the first six miracles of the NT church and that also prophesied and called death upon Annanias and Sapphara (Acts 5)

    Is the word of the Lord given to him based on his "perfection" or lack thereof or is it based or established in its truthfulness???

    This is the problem that I feel has happened. We that know the truth are convinced that God is holy and 100% accurate at all times. However, we have judged even the righteous and the things ordained by God, according to the standards that charlatans have set.

    We down pastoral ministry, prophets, spiritual gifts, even the church based on how evil men have corrupted those things...not based on the institution of those things by God within scripture.

  35. As I said, I don't find any good biblical precedent to say that any of these gifts have ceased and are not in operation today, however we must also note this...

    The prophetic utterance of old had multiple use. I mean just because a person prophesies does not mean that their words are equivalent with the plan of salvation as outlined within scripture. That has never been the case within scripture...Look at Jehosephat in 2 Chron 20:20 Believe God and we will be established, believe his prophets so shall we prosper...Prior to that the prophet Jahaziel had given instruction to the nation...However that was for THAT battle and THAT battle only. That wasn't for a perpetual statute. It was canonical in that it was recorded as to what happened and what was given, it was not a law to abide by perpetually.

    Now there is not a person alive, no matter how much they read the bible and believe it, that has not had an impasse in life whereby they needed to hear from God as it pertains to a specific situation or matter of faith. At those times, when a prophetic utterance comes through, persons should not be afraid when they find that what they are receiving is according to and in conjunction with God's purpose, plan and of course scripture.

    I am afraid that in our fear of the misapplication of the standard, basing certain aspects of the ministry upon how charlatans are proceeding in their deceit, we have reverted back to individuals who can't perceive the supernatural works and moves of God when that is the only way that God has ever confirmed himself among men...supernaturally.

  36. R4C,

    Pastor Burnett and I are currently "dukin" it out on Facebook and its is rather wordy, so I probably won't respond on this site.

    Our issues range from the authority of God's word, engaging the culture, women in ministry, and church history....

    I have stated my point clearly: I do not believe that men still receive audible word from God. I believe scripture is complete. And I place my faith in His word....So The first three questions don't need to be answered.


    My father in law is also a bears fan. I heard you guys lost B. Urlacher, thats a big lost! But anyways !Go Cowboys! lol

  37. As we can see reading the three verses from I Samuel 3:19-21, Samuel grew from a youth to a man. This brother was not an idle talker. All of his words were for a good purpose. He only spoke, when the words were of use to the LORD. And as we know from verse twenty, Samuel was not only a prophet of God, but the last of the judges, as well. He was such a Godly man, that everyone knew he was called of God. We know that Eli, in all probability, told everyone about why Samuel was living with him, instead of with his mother and father. He, conceivably, even told of the call of the LORD to Samuel. Eli probably, had turned many of his duties over to Samuel. And finally, verse twenty-one tells us that the ark was at Shiloh in the tabernacle. The ark symbolized the presence of the LORD. This had not been just in a symbolic form that Samuel had heard the voice of the LORD. It was, in fact, the presence of the LORD that spoke to Samuel. The Word of God is Jesus Christ. We know this revelation of Himself in His Word, is what this is speaking of. Samuel's spiritual eyes were opened, and he understood the Scriptures.

    There is no, “Hit or Miss” when it comes to God and His prophets. I believe some who have claimed to hear God’s voice and missed the prophetic mark, did so because they have either watered down The Lord's truth with their own elaboration and or addition to the message the Lord has spoken upon them or are simply self proclaimed or self appointed prophets.

    Surely, we are living in the midst of those who will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears (2 Timothy 4:3) also in the midst of false christs and false prophets already rising to show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect (Matthew 24:24-25).

  38. Man if Jesus isn't speaking or hasn't spoken since what we call the closing of the canon we're in worse trouble than it appears.

    First there is no warrant for such belief. Secondly, if that's the case, then everything that anyone has done in the name of Christ hasn't truly been directed by HIM...It's all been a figment of our imagination so far as the direction that anyone has taken...Third there is no specific truth to specific believers for specific situations...Once again all things are relegated to some sort of Christian version of chance... then what do we preach? I mean there is no heart to heart direction of any word, everyone is simply talking off the wall out of scripture with no true or real intent or purpose...

    Don't let the charlatans limit the church or God in HIS church speaking to HIS people...he will use whatever vessel HE chooses...

    Now, the thing I find interesting is that the Sovereign crowd, believes in GOd's sovereignty as long as THEY can understand and confirm his sovereignty...In other words it becomes the sovereignty of God to my understanding...God calls a woman and they go crazy...God send a word through a true prophet and they go crazy...don;t dare send a tongue and a miracle is off the table...

    I just received word tonight that a Minisry friend of mine from a long time had a flash pulmonary edima. Killed HER and she was dead 30 minutes...the WOMEN in her ministry gathered, prayed and rebuked death. Tonight she is traveling, ministering and leading her ministry like she has done for like the last 40 or so years...

    Now you mean to tell me, that the CHURCH will somehow override the PLAN, and ACTIONS of god because they interpret God to not do those things today???

    YOU can believe that if you want to, but I KNOW the truth, because I've experienced, lived, and seen it for myself. Like Thomas, when you MEET someone personally, and know something personally there's no more doubt necessary. (Jn. 20:28)

    LK. 17:20-21~ 20-And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21-Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    When Christ set up residence under the NT covenant within the believer, the ball game changed. the Jews had the word on a page, now we have the LIVING word and that WORD speaks to us in all aspects of daily life and living and directs us hands on and will speak to us in a spiritually audible fashion IF we allow him to. And YES, he can use us to speak to the lives of others we don't know...

    You haven't done a thing until you've allowed God to use you on the mission field in the gifts while ministering to sinners...When a sinner hears you speak to their issues by the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that's the DEAL! I've done it and seen the change in folk lives... And the Holy Ghost will give you a succinct, scripturally based message and will destroy the yoke. Seen it, done it, and seen the fruits of it!

  39. It;s the end of 2011 and the statements contained within this video offers solid evidence that this fella is a false prophet.

    There is no way that any of this can even be twisted to fit. It's really a sad shame.

    I wonder will any of those pastors that he raises money for call him to at least repent?

  40. I can't believe there are lost souls out there dying and going to hell and you are out here spending precious kingdom time running a blog bashing a fellow minister.

    And who made you judge over prophets that you should call one false and the other genuine. If God showed you that he is false God will give you a burden to pray for his redemption and not to come spend hours interacting with people who are supposed to be in the place of prayer seeking God for a new wave of revival.

    If at all he is false he would be one who has fallen off from the path of taking a nation back to God.
    When God shows you something it is not for you to go rundown and ridicule the person in public but you should go to him in private and deliver the message and seek the Lord with him that he might be restored.

    I respect you as a man of God but I know that you do know better. We need to stop fighting each other and unite in seeking God for him to send revival upon our land.

    1. Shushu, God sure ain't gonna send a revival upon no false prophets like the ones I've mentioned in this article. The only thing they need do is REPENT for their lies. That's not bashing anyone or anything, that is simply the truth!!!

      Your admonition is greater than the bible's. Jude said "earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the Saints". This statement sets up a "fight". To contend is to fight! Fight for the faith once delivered. For sure, these false prophets are not delivering the faith and as such are cursed. How can you live knowing that they are cursed, and that people who endorse them are cursed? I guess as long as you are comfortable, they can all go to hell?


  41. It is amazing how anyone carrying a cross is allowed to say anything... because New Age Wiccan teaching forbids against criticizing anything anymore. God is in big trouble. Those Ten Commandments will not fly today! And yes, that was God... but he spoke through the man Moses. And Paul took the churches to task. If you had read the New Testament, Shu, you would know this. And Jesus himself spent the opening verses of Revelation criticizing the fine points of seven different churches. If Shushu had any validity to his arguments, Jesus would be judged to have been wrong. And the Bible in the Old and New Testaments commands ordinary believers to judge men by their fruits and actions. Jesus said this and Paul said this. We are to have discernment and judgment over the words and teachings of anyone who considers themselves Biblical teachers. And those who know not the scriptures would do better to remain silent.

  42. Many of these alleged prophecies happen on a consistent basis such as #2 & #4. Hardly a prophecy. Many of the others never have come true. And for the rest all you had to do was read the news and see these things were coming. But we should always look at scriptures to examine ourselves and others. 1 Cor. 13:8 "Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

    The Sign Gifts were for the Jews "who sought signs". They served their purpose to show the Jews that Jesus was indeed the Messiah and his church was also given the Sign Gifts to mostly the Apostles as another sign of his power displayed through the Apostles. But once they died out and the New Testament scriptures were completed "that which was perfect" there is no need for Sign Gifts. We have the Word that tells us what will happen in the future with the Anti-Christ, the Rapture, the Tribulation, the Millenial Reign, Judgement & the Casting of Satan & his demons into the Lake of Fire.

    1. Jay,

      I understand what you are attempting to assert, and pointing to some of these "fakes" as i do in the post, seems to uphold your point, but you are theologically unsound in your overall view.

      First, what you and others call "sign gifts" were not called that biblically. They were called "gifts of the Spirit" and many of them were outlined within scripture. In addition, every gift used was done to edify the body of believers and the church itself. This is the key and the difference.

      "that which is perfect" is not the scriptures themselves in the literal sense. It is the coming of Christ. Without giftings of the Spirit we cannot understand the word of God. Paul said we "look through a glass dimly". Now he was delivering the word was he not? He was referring to the eschaton, not the delivery of the cannon.

      If you believe that we don't need the healing, knowledge, inspiration and all the things that the comfort of the Spirit has come to give us, then I only feel for you in this world. If the early church needed it, then we sure nuff need it now. Joel did not seem to indicate that the pouring out of the Spirit was temporary. In fact, it was for "last days" move. If HE appeared 2000 years ago, and we are still here, we are yet in the last days.

      In short, there is a need for the gifts and to reject them is not only short sided, but it is also to reject HIS work. The gifts have never died out and they never will because the giver lives!

    2. Amen. On another topic, what does Sunday's Best have to do with Jesus ? The very elect have been deceived and I see it and it's with great intensity because my redemption drawrth nigh. And Christ is gonna shut the door on anything and anyone breathing that has walked jack-legged and contrary to what the Word says. Just as in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of man..The wishy-washy who wanna twist God's word and His ways by calling good evil and evil good shall find themselves just where they are now...fornicating with lies and doctrines of devils...with a one-way shuttle to hell.

      Side note: I still refuse to embrace church anniversaries, pastor appreciation day, Honors Day, Womens' Day and all the other traditions of men that we've been warned about. A sprinkle or a dab of Jesus but loaded with flesh..

      And First Lady? Where did that come from? Not from my Bible. Michelle Obama, isn't she the First Lady? Again, a lie.

    3. Carla,

      As I stated in the other thread I certainly do agree with you. these folk have taken hollywood church to a whole new level. It is an act and made for TV presentation that we are seeing and dealing with. Like most things on tv it is not real. it is a fake and that's what we see.

      As I also stated, lighten up on the pastor's wives etc...You may have run into some bad ones which has caused you to slight your view, I certainly understand that as well, but honoring God's servants never leads one wrong. this is what I said on that subject in the other thread:

      "So far as "first lady" that is only an appellation or acknowledgement of the woman who is the pastor's wife. remember they, the pastor or "ox" as God calls him and the spouse are ONE FLESH and this carries importance to God as well as HE has established the family based upon this union. Some may read more into it, but don't minimize it as it is important to God to acknowledge not only the spiritual leader but the ONE unit that he and she are in the eyes of God."

      I'll tell you what. When God called me to Pastor my wife WAS literally the first lady. She was my only member. She deserves that appellation and I'll not let anyone disrespect her. All the others can and will leave at some point, but she is the one who has been there, been faithful, endured and ministered to my needs.

      Even more to a scriptural point, one cannot disrespect the spouse and respect the man or pastor...God does not honor that, but he DOES honor the union which he views as ONE FLESH. So please be careful in dealing with this topic among those who have vendettas either against the church or certain personalities of the church.

      When I started blogging, there was guy who had a popular blog just like that. He gathered a lot of people to his site based on his disdain for a personal situation. He covered it with theology, but the truth came out and I saw it for what it was HATE...Life changed both he and his circumstance and the foolishness that went on there is no more...It is unrecognizable and the crowd has dispersed. There are many that are like that on the net and they are teachings some doctrines, similar to these witches, that God does not honor or ordain and will not bless.

      So please examine the word and most importantly seek to honor what he does.

  43. Harvey,

    Let me clear the air on something. First of all, I never said anything about not "respecting" or "disrespecting" anyone. As a matter of fact, I am, again, under a female Pastor. Again, and with all due respect, I refuse to call anyone in the church or out the church First Lady; that of which is not Biblical. I never stated anything about being disrespectful, and all I've spoken is based on scripture.

    Jesus came to make no reputation of himself; however, it's commonplace in the church, because flesh has taken over. I do understand scripture, and I do study to show myself approved.

    As far as the titles go, that's Biblical although, as I clearly stated, those that have gone before us and suffered in a way that we, thus far, have only read about, never ALWAYS referred to themselves with a title in front of their name as people do today. Those are the ones who prayed and God shut the rain off, delivered from guarded prisons miraculously, shadows healing the sick etc. Again, they didn't have to promote themselves by title. Why? They knew who they were in God, coupled with miracles, signs, and wonders following! not to mention, thousands being added to the church.

    The Bible says in the last days (now), the very elect would be deceived..... That said, again, all the extracurricular activities in the building, including selling dinners, books, tapes, anniversaries and all else, if Jesus ain't being preached and repentance not taking place, it's nothing but another meeting. Oh, yeah. And this also includes the comedy skits now infiltrating the church, miming and anything else that New Age brings in. Busyness with no Word. The Bible even tells us if we preach anything other than what the Apostles preached, those folks are accursed and for me, that includes any Pastor trying to force me to embrace addressing their wife as First Lady. Also, if I were married, this same rule applies. The Bible is my final authorized, not man.

    1. Calra,

      As a matter of respect, one should use the titles of folk when addressing them. I don't agree with the President of the United States on MANY of his initiatives and efforts, BUT he is still the President, and there is nothing there that says, "I must address him as President", it is out of HONOR and DEFERENCE that I do so. This is a common courtesy. Biblical Saints were quick to provide that honor and deference to anyone, especially to them of the household of faith (Gal. 6:10)

      Many courtesies that we offer to one another are not proscribed within holy text and we do not have to wait for a biblical proscription to do so. As an example, if we were to just mimic things we find in the bible, we can't stop with titles, but we would all have to go back to a mode of communal living as well, where we sold ALL our possessions and gave the money to the "elders" of the church so that they can distribute our living. As we can see, as a church and community of believers, we have progressed past that mode of living and lifestyle, but no one can deny that is what we see within scripture. Are we somehow condemned because we no longer live like we see the early church lived in scripture from a material point of view? I think both of us know the answer is clearly NO. So then, the only conclusion is that many practices and or customs do not have to be biblically defined for us to practice them and many of our practices today are not biblically defined, but are yet in biblical order.

      Then so far as what the early church folk called themselves, you mention the word "always". neither of us know what anyone in the 1st century "always" did or said, but we do know what we find within scripture.

      Within scripture we see, there was no problem with ANY of the Apostles characters or even Jesus himself receiving accolade by title. Often Jesus was called "master" "rabboni" even "good master", "teacher"etc, One could say those were not titles, but they were appellations given to him none of which he denied or rejected,

      We CERTAINLY agree that in comparison modern folk are title struck. I would be the first to agree on that...

      However, with that said, scripture clearly defines those who lead the NT church by honoring them with the acknowledgement of their title. Scripture clearly points towards Apostleship, which was not simply a title handed out, but an office occupied. this title and office was acknowledged by the community of believers and was a distinguishable acknowledgement of the person.

      Luke, writing about the first council, recognizes the leadership of the "Apostles and Elders". (Acts 15:4, 8) within the church. Their leadership was not a generic one, nor was it simply lumped in together with others who existed in the church. The "Apostles were specific people, and people that the NT church looked to for information and answers on the practices and policies of the church. They were leaders, had the title of leader and folk recognized them as such.

      In Gal. 2:8 Paul recognizes that Peter is an "apostle" to the Jews. Paul outlines the significance of Jesus presenting himself to "cephas", "the twelve", "all of the apostles" and finally himself as the "least of the apostles". I only note that because these were people who occupied specific position that the NT church regognized. It was not simply a generic crow only that Jesus came to, such as "500 men at once".

      In reference to his salvation Paul later went on many times to note that he had also been called to a specific office as well. (Rom. 1:1, 1 Cor. 1:1, 2 Cor. 1:1, Ephes,. 1:1, Titus 1:1, Gal;. 1:1, Col. 1:1, 1 Cor. 5:19)

      See 2

    2. 2

      Now, where is anything written that Paul had to be recognized as an apostle or that he had to recognize Peter as an Apostle? I propose that it is out of the recognition of the hand and the power of God on the individual, and out of respect for his calling and office in which he abides. God certainly thought it important enough to recognize it, why should we struggle with it?

      So we can't say what people "always" did..,but we can certainly say what we see within scripture and how scripture relays that the church had no problem with calling folk who they were not honoring the office that they walked in.

      Finally, so far as the appellation of a pastor's wife as "first lady" what does that either take away or add to you? Sounds like to me you have some negative personal experiences. I am not trying to establish a rule, and there is no rule established that I know of regarding the issue. However, it is another custom that the the church and even society has adopted to show a due respect to a person. One thing I can say, is YES how the pastor's wife should be respected and within the context of the church is vitally important to God. The pastor AND his wife are ONE FLESH. If you don't believe the importance, consult Miriam and Aaron...Numbers 12!

    3. I guess I ask the wrong question. I guess the question is why do we struggle with acknowledging the titles and office of the modern minister. I think with phoneys like we see in Carn and others that is probably the biggest struggle. People don;t want to give their energy to charlatans who simply "claim: to be one thing or another and I certainly understand that.

      However, everyone is NOT a fake or phoney. Some folk God has called and they should be respected, not out of a demand, but out of respect and deference for the fruit that they bear and present. That's Christ's love and how the NT church operated and interacted with one another.

      We have to be careful that we become not one who demands fire on others. Jesus told them that they "did not know what spirit they were of" Lk. 9:55

    4. Harvey, again, I will refer to a Pastor's wife as Ma'am, Mrs., Sister but First Lady...NOT..
      If I married a Pastor tomorrow, I would not demand, require, or even ask to be referred to as First Lady, so accept it. I don't go along to get along, nor do I agree to disagree. I'm not a character of cliches. Further, this term First Lady is primarily in the black church. Furthermore, when you go on a job interview, do you expect for the secular prospective employer to call you First Lady? More likely not , right. She's Mrs. okay?

    5. Carla,

      Maybe you know of someone who "require" that appellation or greeting, but I don't know of anyone who does. For me, no matter what church it started in, it is simply a matter of respect and or acknowledgement. No more than that.

      I know you know how to be respectful, so my diatribe was not to instruct you in that area, only to be mindful that for some it is a display of disrespect and can be interpreted as such. Every church is not the same and customs change. Paul seemed to teach that wholesome customs should be observed. Personally, I've never had a negative experience in this area.

      In fact, I work in a secular environment and some people call me pastor, to which I always respond with thanks, but that can simply call me by my name. Even my boss did and does that.

      So we agree that there are some folk title struck and love the accolades and want to beat everyone into submission about it and THAT is not Christ.

      Now, you come to my church...'kiss the ring my sistah...LOL-LOL-LOL!!!!
      (and you better KNOW I am just kidding-LOL!!!!)

      Good commentary and thanks for flushing this issue out.

    6. BTW Carla, glad to hear from you and I trust things are well in your neck of the woods? Anyway, talk to you in a minute!

  44. Carn is up to his old antics again, and it's even worse this time. I guess that's what happens when people don't repent and turn from their evil.


  45. Honestly , why are so many people from the church making a big deal out of this it brings the call of God down

  46. I don't understand why we are condemning Prophet Carn we should be holding him up in prayer . Let's see the true validity of the church militaristic

  47. Unfortunately, what appears to bring our "call down" is what we have to deal with. Jude 1:3b say "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the Saints"

    So the mission of believers is to "contend" or to fight for, what is truth and what God has established in the earth that is true. So to be called to this fight is not bringing anything "down". It is stepping up to the plate to do what God has called us to do!

  48. I'm sorry there was no prophet of Yah in all the scriptures that was so inaccurate on so many occasions as you see alot of these so called profits doing today....When the prophet spoke, the people feared, now when the "profit speaks" people doubt even before He/she opens their mouths. Why is that? Because with consistency comes trust,belief,faith,and a good reputation..some of these so called profits, prophecy to people's pockets...speaking only pleasant things but never a rebuke, reproach, reproof, chastisement,or anything that would shake the church to consciousness so all will repent...I believe that alot of people believe that just because you hear a word from Yah, that automatically makes you a prophet.I beg to differ,in any office their must be someone that can testify of your legitimacy..that's the way Yah created it.just like when Yeshua chose Paul,Ananias of Damascus was the second witness of him(apostle Sha'ul)being ordained into office...affirmation,alot of these so called prophets aren't chosen I'm sorry...there are to many of them making inaccurate ,presumptuous prophecies

  49. Here is the latest false prophecy from this man...

    Please pray that he humble himself and submit to the spirit of God.


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