Wednesday, July 29, 2009

Salvation: Is The Message Revealed To Those Who Have Never Heard?

The Argument

The critic levels many accusations at Christianity. One of those accusations is aimed at the effectiveness of the proliferation of the message of salvation. You see Christianity holds that if one is not a Christian, one cannot be made righteous with God and therefore will be worthy of hell. In many circles it is also held that if one does not hear the gospel message one cannot be forgiven for their sins, set free or be righteous. Paul says that the gospel (the message of it) is the power of God unto salvation:

Rom.1:16~ "16-For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
He further states that hearing the gospel is the way that faith comes into the mind and heart of the believer:

Rom.10:17~"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Immediately before this statement however he declares and questions rhetorically the process of how belief arises within the heart of a believer:

Rom. 10:13-15 ~ "13-For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14-How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15-And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
Paul's declaration has given rise to the thoughts that by ONLY the preaching of the Gospel can one be saved and that without IT faith cannot arise within the heart, and where there is no faith, one can not be saved. The writer of Hebrews picked up on this theme:

Heb. 11:6~"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
The part that we are not addressing in this post is the relationship of faith to salvation. We have discussed and will continue to discuss that in Are Works And Faith Inseparable? This post we are discussing the relationship of hearing the gospel and the message of faith to the community of humanity who may never hear or have never heard that message.

The Current Reality:

Interestingly, by best efforts at estimation, only 2.1 billion persons, approximately 1/3 of the worlds population, is Christian. Before we proceed there are problems with that estimate and additional qualifications that must be made. Religious Tolerance.Org states that some of the problems with estimating how many Christians there are worldwide is as follows:

1- The definition of 'Christian' is not agreed upon by many of the groups involved therefore drawing the line between 'Christian' and those who belong to 'sects' is problematic. [Example: Groups such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witness claim to be Christian's although they are in actuality non-Christian cults.][Religious Tolerance.Org didn't say that part, I did.]

2- No-one can really tell if a person is a Christian at heart, or if they are just paying lip-service to the name.

3- "The percentage of Christians in the world peaked at about 30 % in the 1980s, leveled off, is now declining, and will probably approximate to about 25% of the world's population by 2025. As a result of their extremely high rates of population growth, the proportion of Muslims in the world will continue to increase dramatically, amounting to 20 percent of the world's population about the turn of the century, surpassing the number of Christians some years later, and probably accounting for about 30 percent of the world's population by 2025." ~ Samuel Huntington, "The Clash of Civilizations and the remaking of world order," Touchstone Books, (1998)

Christian growth is on the decline and even if it were flat, at the most liberal estimate it still holds that approximately 60% of the worlds population is non-Christian. Those numbers have varied over the years throughout history however, at any given time it could be said that 50% or less of the worlds population were Christian believers.

What Does That Mean?

It means that most of the world is non Christian and according to the most popular definition of salvation will be lost in their sins. The question that arises from this, is what of the eternal disposition of the peoples and individuals who have never heard the gospel? In some cases it could be that certain individuals will never and have never heard the message of the cross and are therefore determined to go to hell.

That concept, as strange as it may sound, is not totally foreign to the church and many believers, especially them that hold belief in Evangelical and Reform Christian Theological circles. In fact this is the assertion of Dr. John Calvin the father of Calvinism regarding this and related issues:

“...(God) does not create everyone in the same condition, but ordains eternal life for some and eternal damnation for others.” (Cited in Alister McGrath, Christian Theology, p. 396)
This is descriptive to what is called the doctrine of Double Predestination (the elect are predestined to be saved while the non-elect are predestined to hell) To be fair many Calvinists do not hold to this ascription as it is stated, however it is a telling backdrop for what many assert regarding the nations and individuals who have never heard the gospel and have never received the message.

Is There Another Understanding?

Thank God, Yes, there is. Without a doubt belief in Jesus is essential for salvation. The word records:

John 14:5-6~"5-Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6-Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
The question is how can and does that belief come to an individual? And can salvation come to an individuals who has never heard the message?

What We Know:

We know that God has spoken to us through Jesus:

Heb. 1:1-2 ~ "1-God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2-Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"
We also know that that God was in Jesus reconciling the world unto himself and has given the church that same ministry of reconciliation:

2 Cor. 5:19 ~ "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation"
We also know that Jesus will present to himself a "glorious church":

Ephes. 5:26-27~"26-That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27-That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
We also know that the church is ultimately those who believe and hold fast to their profession of faith through their actions. The church may include many in the earthly or physical church but there is a greater and ever growing gap between those in the "glorious church" and those in the natural or physical church that we see currently.

Teleologically & Cosmologically Speaking:

Atheist Richard Dawkins in his book, "The Blind Watchmaker" summarizes the study of Micro-Biological Science as the study of complicated things that APPEAR to be designed by an intelligent designer or creator. In other words what is obviously apparent in creation, even at a microbiological level displays evidence of a designer. Dr. Dawkins then spends the rest of the book trying to show that observations can be deceiving and in this case incorrect, and that all things, even complicated structures, are simply matters of chance and blind occurrences of natural processes. Never mind in the interim that Dr. Dawkins undermines the value of empirical science, as he is a scientist that can interpret information subjectively and based upon his presuppositions and try to explain away the complexity of design (Teleology). Even in that however his summation does not change the observation that there is order and an apparent design within creation.

The Christian accounts for that design by declaring that God is responsible for it based on the declarations made through the written testimony of history (the Bible)and secondarily many empirical scientific observations. Many of these observations are not however limited to the Western world and biological science laboratories. They are made public and known throughout all creation and to all people to some degree or extent. This observation of nature is called the observation of the cosmos (ie:cosmology)

What does this mean? It means that God can speak to people, and reveal his truth, to individuals and nations, through creation. The awe of the universe is testimony to the glory of God declaring his works as the Psalmist says.

Ps. 19:1-6 ~ "1-The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2-Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3-There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4-Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5-Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6-His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."
This Psalm gives the declaration that God speaks through what is observable in nature and the human conscience. Through observation individuals can understand that not only do they exist but that God (ie: a creator)exists also. This is not secret but is done for all men to see wherever people can observe and wherever conscience can be exercised. Paul, in the New testament, reverberates this same sentiment and closes the gap even tighter by declaring that people are "without excuse":

Rom. 1:19-20~ "19-Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20-For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
What About Them That Can't See?

God, yet through the existence of life, speaks so that all whether they can observe physically or not, are able to experience his handywork. Sometimes we feel that the only way God reveals himself is through the senses, however his revelation to man is far greater than the sensory capacity of any individual. This is one way that the blind can come to "see" who Jesus is.

What About Personal Revelation?

One of the most touchy areas in which God reveals himself to individuals is the area of personal revelation.As surprising as it may seem, personal revelation was the method by how Paul and the original Apostles became convinced of the authenticity of Jesus. The case could be made that personal revelation of this sort is only reserved for those who Jesus calls Apostles however it should also be noted that Jesus was also personally revealed to women who were not called or given the title of an Apostle, UND Professor John P. Mier in his work "A Marginal Jew Vol. 3" points out that this is partially due to the fact that there was no equivalent word for a female apostle in the Hebrew or Aramaic language:

Lk. 24:10~"It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles."
Although Paul points to the gospel as the chief vehicle that leads to salvation he himself was not preached to in the traditional sense. He was converted by an experience where Christ was revealed to him on Damascus road:

Acts:9:10-12 ~ "3-And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4-And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5-And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6-And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7-And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8-And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9-And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink"
He recounts his experience later in his epistle to the Galations:

Galations 1:15-20 ~ "15-But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16-To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17-Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18-Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19-But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother. 20-Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 21-Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; 22-And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: 23-But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. 24-And they glorified God in me"
Prior To The New Testament

We see this revelation of God toward humankind as far back as Genesis

When Enos was born(Gen. 4:26)men began to call upon the name of the Lord, what was revealed to them that facilitated these actions?

Melchizedek was known as a priest of the most high God (Gen. 14:18)and was even contrasted to Jesus himself within the NT (Heb. 7:1) How did Melchizedek come to know who God was?

Naaman, a Syrian, came to the prophet Elisha on the word of his wife's servant seeking God's deliverance for his incurable leprosy. (2 Kings 5)How did Naaman credit God with such power? Was his seeking simply a matter of convenience or desperation?

The syrophonecian woman pleaded with Jesus for her daughter's deliverance (Mk. 7:24-30). How did she know the works of God moved through Jesus life until he had power over devils?

The Assyrian capital Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah. How did they recognize and prioritize the warning of God as important?

The argument could be made that all of these individuals heard the message of the Lord and knew of God and his acts before they had their experiences, but that yet does not address the fact that none of these individuals had a special relationship either with to or toward God before these events. In fact most of them were outside the people of "promise" or the chosen of God.

Every Nation That Fears And Works

In Acts 10:35, Peter states that there is an acceptance of God of "every nation that feareth him, and worketh righteousness is accepted with him". (There's that word WORKS again)Back to the point...Traditionally, we have understand this to mean that anyone, without regard, can accept the message of Jesus and be saved. The question is however, was there a greater emphasis on this verse even toward those who may have never heard the message but yet received God into their midst?

One thing is for sure, God has the salvation of the world, even those who have never heard the message of the cross under his control. His mission is still the same today as it was back then...In fact here's what he said:

Lk. 19:10~ "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Questions:

What of them that have never heard...can they be saved too?

Should a person take the attitude of, "If God wants to speak to me, he knows where I am?"

Did Paul place too great of an emphasis on preaching the word, especially since the message wasn't so much as preached to him at his conversion?

Does experience equal or exceed a more cognitive acceptance of the gospel message?

Is there a second standard of salvation for some? If so is that fair?

These are tough questions, can we give some tough answers?

Blessed!

68 comments:

  1. This is something that has always bothered me. I can't say I have the answer yet. Right now I take the agnostic position on this issue along with Alister McGrath and the Calvinist J.I. Packer.

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  2. As I was going through this, I began to think that maybe we place to great of a correlation between the Christian percentage and the unchurched or unchristianized. The reason being that just because somebody hears the message doesn't mean that they will repent. I mean we desire for that to happen and happen often but what if 95% of the world has heard the message even though 35% receive it...

    The critic thinks that's a failure but I think it's a testimony to the fact that the truth is being taught and that the mission of Christ is being fulfilled.

    I mean look at it...if folk reject the gospel that's not God's fault for not using his church to reach them.

    Looking back over history, I think the same could be said that in every century the gospel and the messsage was fairly widespread even if people didn't accept it...Now invariably someone will bring up the Myans etc but even they had some sort of religious belief and one is pressed to say why?

    So I am beginning to believe that the critic has a much smaller and less significant argument and criticism regarding this than what he/she knows or cares to admit.

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  3. Another thing that confirms those thoughts is that Jesus said that the path or way to destruction is broad and there would be many that traveled it...whereas the way to righteousness is straight or narrow...Isaiah comes back and says that only the wayfarers would travel that path of holiness. That would seem to go hand in hand with the results we observe.

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  4. great Word brother? Paul is right we as human beings are without excuse (Rom. 1:19-20), because we know that God created the heavens and the earth and the fullness therein. This should be enough proof. But what about those who were not included in God's convenent (I'm talk about the desendants of Esau)? Will they have a chance at salvation? Also what about Jewish people who do not believe that Jesus has come in the flesh?

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  5. The question is, is there enough information in creation to convict a sinner of his sins and cause them to repent?

    Anyway, just thinking some things through.

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  6. Excellent thoughts Servant,

    Let's examine those aspects a little more closely in the coming days on this post, I believe The Lord has an answer for us.

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  7. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    The question is, is there enough information in creation to convict a sinner of his sins and cause them to repent?

    IMO no. The grandeur of the universe can easily lead an individual or nation to the idea of a creator or creators or pantheism or whatever, but there is nothing in nature or the basic (untaught) human psyche that would lead one to or even imply any given religion. To look at nature and then all of a sudden conclude "Christianity!" is a conceptual leap of immense proportions, involving ideas which we see echoed no where in nature (ie sin, atonement, the crucifixion or even existence of a man/god hybrid like Jesus).

    It's like I said in the hell thread - if people could come to a knowledge of the JudeoChristian god via nature we would expect to find pockets of Christianity (or VERY Christian like religions) all over the world before Christian missionaries ever reached the given area. History proves that untrue - the Christian religion has been spread entirely by the work of missionaries.

    Therefore, it is my opinion that Romans 1:19-20 is a blatant lie on Paul's part. Thusly, IF Christianity is true, in answer to this question:

    "Is there a second standard of salvation for some? If so is that fair?"

    I would say yes, there would have to be some additional standard or method of salvation to take into account those who have never heard the gospel. If not, then the entire system is blatantly unjust.

    (For what it's worth, IMO the bible leaves no room whatsoever for any second standard/method of salvation, so.....)

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  8. Im of the "they are without excuse" belief.

    Youre right Pastor B, this criticism is leveled as an attack on God. It seeks to paint him as unfair or unjust.

    No one can stand before God in judgment and claim innocence based on ignorance whether intentional or unintentional.

    That would make God deficient as it is his word and we are under his mandate. Surely, he is more than capable of carrying out the proliferation of his word to every man until the end.

    People will have no excuse before a Holy and Righteous God. They may claim not to have known, but the angels record all things and God is not a liar nor will he be.

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  9. Okay. Let me take a shot at this,

    The Bible says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and that all are also without excuse. All have spurned the infinite worth of God's glory and therefore, all desreve infinite suffering in hell.

    Grace is by definition something that we don't deserve so God is under no obligation to be gracious to anybody. If God were to save only one person then there would be nothing unjust about it. All deserve God's justice.

    The question isn't: "Why does God save some and not others?" The question is: "Why does God save any at all?" He will be gracious to whomever He pleases.

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  10. Ok,

    Let's develop some additional answers. God doesn't have to save anyone and that's true but he has placed the weight of his love and redemption in Jesus so I believe we could safely say that his intent was to at least save some.

    Titus 2:11-12~"11-For the grace of god that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. 12- Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world;"

    His grace is present in this world and is available for all to see, but grace has a lesson to teach. How is that lesson taught?

    There is a conscience that man has that God has access to and there is the church who's mission is to teach that righteousness.

    Now, Nightmare brings up something interesting. He says this:

    "if people could come to a knowledge of the JudeoChristian god via nature we would expect to find pockets of Christianity (or VERY Christian like religions) all over the world before Christian missionaries ever reached the given area."

    I'm approaching that assertion critically and not saying that he's wrong but would that be what we would expect to find or would we expect to find societies that exemplify or maintain fairly consistent moral standards?

    I mean every culture has it's own set of values but there are certain values that sem to be universal...self-sacrifice, love, compassion etc, even in societies that are "unevangelized" display these sort of traits and characteristics to some degree...The naturalist thinks that's based on a form of cultural commensurability to help the species survive but a better answer is a moral law giver and the uniformity of higher moral standards, laws and codes...

    We find that even in unevangelized regions of the world.

    What that says to me is that "grace" has appeared to everybody whether they have heard the name Jesus or not. So that's part one...

    Part two is bringing "them" (the unevangelized) into the fold and like I said earlier, I believe there are a lot more that has heard the message than what statistics account for. Many reject as we are told that they would and given the reasons why, but truth has yet been spread...

    Now how does any of that "grace" translate to someone knowing Christianity in particular is once again, in my opinion, a supernatural opportunity for the Lord who deals supernaturally with people...

    Just as the Magi saw the supernatural rip in time called a star god yet does this to peopel today, so in short I believe there are abundant opportunities for anyone everywhere to know him and I also believe he will draw them according to his purpose.

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  11. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    I mean every culture has it's own set of values but there are certain values that sem to be universal...self-sacrifice, love, compassion etc, even in societies that are "unevangelized" display these sort of traits and characteristics to some degree.....What that says to me is that "grace" has appeared to everybody whether they have heard the name Jesus or not.

    But regardless of this, those "virtuous pagans" (to quote Dante) are still damned til they hear the gospel story (and accept it) - yes or no?

    a better answer is a moral law giver and the uniformity of higher moral standards, laws and codes...

    A different answer, not necessarily better. I daresay many of the cultures subject to evangelism over the ages would agree (if they were still around in the original form).

    a supernatural opportunity for the Lord who deals supernaturally with people...

    This is my point entirely. If YHVH was talking/dealing with these people supernaturally, why not tell them about Jesus flat out? Why not give them the whole story? Surely this would likely net at least some more saved individuals than an approach of silence would? It simply doesn't make sense.

    Just as the Magi saw the supernatural rip in time called a star god

    Huh?

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  12. Nightmare,

    There should have been a comma AFTER star and between it and God...The star was supernatural but it WASN'T a God. I know you were getting ready to line up for that one-LOL (I'm just kidding)

    Anyway, So far as God revealing, I understand what you're saying but like the Magi(As I was saying) they knew what it took to lead them to God to see it for themselves. They were convinced of all the things they witnessed in nature that told them something special, but they had to see it for themeslves...I think that's a much better way than someone telling somebody from the beginning how and what to think...Yes, they knew a certain amount of knowledge but part of that was also from their own tradition and expectations...

    So I think, based on that, the story becomes quite compelling as they were led to the place to see this "king" and found him to be who he was.

    Walk in the light given and more light is extended. I believe that see it repeatedly through scripture and we educate our children the same way...We don't give a kindergartner an advanced calculus book and teel them to decipher it. We walk them up slowly. Pagans that know nothing about Jesus even if they had the name reveald what good would that do? Nothing. There has to be a development and each one of us experience development in our lives and occupations in a similar manner...

    For instance and this is simple...How many people that work for major (huge) corporations know the CEO's name on the first day, then the VP then on down the line? Then how many have sat with and talked with them BEFORE they started working? Not too many IF any. Why? some things you only need to know in time or as it pertains to what you're doing.

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  13. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    There should have been a comma AFTER star and between it and God...The star was supernatural but it WASN'T a God. I know you were getting ready to line up for that one-LOL (I'm just kidding)

    Lol no prob, you just had me thoroughly confused XD

    Anyway, So far as God revealing, I understand what you're saying...Yes, they knew a certain amount of knowledge but part of that was also from their own tradition and expectations...

    Traditions and expectations that were fundamentally pagan in nature. This must not be overlooked. For the sake of this discussion I'll grant that magi visited the infant Jesus (even though the entire story is somewhat suspect) and also grant that they believed this child was a god not merely a king (something different tellings of the story are unclear about). Even if this were the case, these men almost assuredly revered him in a pagan context - ie as one god amidst many. I say this because they were likely not Zoroastrians, due to the Greek usage of the term magi ("wise men" or magician would be more accurate in this case). Even if they were Zoroastrians, they likely thought of him as a manifestation of Ahura Mazda, not YHVH.

    The church had major problems with this as it expanded into Europe. The pagan populace would gladly accept Jesus - adopting him as one more god to add to the local pantheon. This is likely exactly what these magi did - accepted him in their own context.

    So, with that in mind, let us say for the purpose of this discussion these men go back home and continue on in this state of belief for the rest of their lives - accepting Jesus as a god, but also keeping their own god or gods. What then happens when they die? Are they damned or saved?

    I believe that see it repeatedly through scripture and we educate our children the same way...We don't give a kindergartner an advanced calculus book and teel them to decipher it. We walk them up slowly. Pagans that know nothing about Jesus even if they had the name reveald what good would that do? Nothing.

    But yet missionaries do exactly the opposite - drop the gospel message in the person's lap whole cloth. And they get results. They can and often have converted an entire culture within a generation or two. If mere mortals can do this, how much more could an all powerful god do? No Harvey, I don't think this "weaning onto Jesus" idea has any merit, sorry.

    For instance and this is simple...How many people that work for major (huge) corporations know the CEO's name on the first day, then the VP then on down the line?

    Save for the fact that in a corporation it is not fundamentally crucial for every individual to know precisely who their boss is. In said corporation one still gets paid so long as one's job is done, regardless of whether you think Mr CEO or Micky Mouse is running the place.

    Not so in Christian belief. In Christianity, one does not get paid/saved unless one has a personal relationship with the CEO/Jesus (and the "right" Jesus at that) - how well one does at their job (works) doesn't mean jack if one doesn't have that relationship. This is what is taught, correct?

    -----

    I think I see your intention here Harvey (conscious or subconscious) - correct me if I'm wrong here. You want to believe in a good god. You want to believe that the god you love wouldn't cast someone away to eternal torment without giving them at least the chance to hear his message and be saved. Thus, you want/need some "out" for the "virtuous pagan" to enable them to not be damned simply by virtue of not being born in the right time or place. You're a good man I think Harvey, and if I'm reading you correctly you don't wanna see good people suffer eternally for (essentially) no reason. I had that same desire when I was Christian.

    The problem is, the bible leaves no room for that.

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  14. Nightmare,

    You asked:So, with that in mind, let us say for the purpose of this discussion these men go back home and continue on in this state of belief for the rest of their lives - accepting Jesus as a god, but also keeping their own god or gods. What then happens when they die? Are they damned or saved?

    First of all I think the Magi knew they were dealing with something that was uniquely differt from any other pagan diety that they may or may not have been familiar with and I think they figured this out ovet time...How? First they are the only one that see this "star" or supernatural rip in the universe. I mean what, Herrod never looked into the sky? His soldiers never looked up? Rome never looked higher than 6 Foot 6 in.?

    This was a special revelation to them and they were made aware of it especially after talking to Herrod and Herrod saying "when you find this let me know".

    What they would have done? IF they were as wise as they were said to have been (which I believe thaey were seekers of the truth) they would have continued in the faith the God had revealed his presence to the earth. I doubt that anyone having that revelation would have gone on or reverted bac to the next mere pagan deity, so your understanding in no wise accounts for any supernatural intervention or human response to what is perceived as a supernatural intervention.

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  15. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    What they would have done? IF they were as wise as they were said to have been (which I believe thaey were seekers of the truth) they would have continued in the faith the God had revealed his presence to the earth.

    You're missing the point. It doesn't really matter what these individuals believed or how they ended up - we are merely using them as examples for the millions of other "virtuous pagans" throughout the world and history. And poor examples at that - they actually saw Jesus, whereas most would know absolutely nothing. That is why I worded the question the way I did - to take into account the wider and more common perspective.

    I can see how it is tempting to think of such individuals as proto-Christians of some sort - it's far easier to let them off the hook so to speak that way. I know that was my train of thought back in the day. However, the individuals we are talking about would not consider themselves in that fashion - they were, and are, pagans (or Muslims, atheists, etc), and if they did in fact know your god it would likely be by some name other than YHVH or Jesus.

    Thus I ask for the third time, are these "virtuous pagans" still damned til they hear the gospel story (and accept it) or not?

    I doubt that anyone having that revelation would have gone on or reverted bac to the next mere pagan deity, so your understanding in no wise accounts for any supernatural intervention or human response to what is perceived as a supernatural intervention.

    And you think "mere" pagan deities are incapable of supernatural intervention? If so you have a great deal yet to learn. For instance, we would not be having this conversation if not for several such interventions.

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  16. Nightmare,

    You asked:"Thus I ask for the third time, are these "virtuous pagans" still damned til they hear the gospel story (and accept it) or not?"

    There are a few pieces missing...1- the gospel 'story" is more than just a story. Obvioulsy, hearing a 'story" is not salvific...what one does with the information is. I proved and addressed that in my post. Preaching doesn't always take a wooden literal format. paul was probably "preached' to as he researched the beliefs of the Christians that he was so proudly persecuting. Paul having expressed the power of the preaching of the gospel in no way limits the power of god to ONLY preaching of the gospel. So that much of your question overlooks what preaching and revealing of the message actually is.

    2- There is no one that will be saved without having believe in jesus for that salvation...NOW look at what happened to those who died BEFORE he was born and died. Where were they? In what was known as "Abraham's bosom" a place that was excluded from torment and pain and a place that scripture records that Jesus "led captivity captive" the same place ascended with him on high...So they too of all nations who died believing in a messiah or promise of god however they understood that promise were saved...3- What happens to them who die now since jesus but are unfamiliar with the message? I can't be dogmatic on this but neither can you...why? Jesus says "other sheep" he has which are "not of this fold" them he also "must draw". What does that mean? It means that god has got the salvation of the world, including ALL who believe in him under his control...4- One thing is for sure, if we do not walk in the light provided, we receive no additional light. We have a responsibility for what we know and how we know it right now so NOONE escapes...5- You make no room for his supernatural intervention in the hearts and minds of individuals and nations. Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah. They were a nation not merely individuals and there was no great miracle done to prove anything. It was a heart intervention. God yet interviens within the heart which is where salvation begins whether one knows the gospel message or not...God will and has drawn all men unto himself IF they want to go!

    So, you cannot make a dogmatic assertions that anyone not hearing will be lost. That's a fundamentalist assertion and superimposition on scripture. There is plenty of room for God to operate and move among even what we consider to be pagans. One thing is for sure ALL paganism will be subject to the cross and no IDOLS will be accepted before his presence.

    see pt. 2

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  17. pt. 2

    Nightmare,

    You also said this:"And you think "mere" pagan deities are incapable of supernatural intervention? If so you have a great deal yet to learn."

    Janes and Jambres withstood Moses. It's not a "big wooop" when the DEVIL which is what ALL pagan dieties are, make themselves "strog" or display some sort of ability in this world. satan has this worlds power but he doesn't hols a candle to the power of God under any circumstance.

    Example, in the temptation we have the devil taking Jesus places, A high mountain, viewing the world etc...and making a deal that if Jesus would worship him he would give him all power and honor of the nations. Why didn't Jesus contest satans ability to give him that? What didn't Jesus quote "the cattle on 1,000 hills..." Because 1- Jesus got all of that honor glory and every need met by serving only God and 2- satan is the god of this world loosed to deceive those such as you, who hold your desires and the need to fulfill them higher than service to God...As proof, even in your paganism you are selfish...describing yourself as an anarchist and one unwilling to be committed to any deity...that is the epitome of selfishness...Why believe in a diety at all if you won't commit to them?

    The God of the bible isn't interested in placating the selfish or playing games with the devil. He is and does no matter what the devil through your man made idols and demonic powers do or think they can do.

    Real power is changing a stony heart bent on sin, selfishness, and fleshly desires and setting it free. That's the power of my God. He superceeds ANYTHING that your idols through the powerd of the devil can do!!!

    NOW THAT'S THE TRUTH RUTH!!!

    ReplyDelete
  18. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    1- the gospel 'story" is more than just a story. Obvioulsy, hearing a 'story" is not salvific...what one does with the information is. I proved and addressed that in my post.

    I know, I was simply using the term gospel story as shorthand for this. Sorry, should have made that clear.

    There is no one that will be saved without having believe in jesus for that salvation...NOW look at what happened to those who died BEFORE he was born and died. Where were they? In what was known as "Abraham's bosom" a place that was excluded from torment and pain and a place that scripture records that Jesus "led captivity captive" the same place ascended with him on high...So they too of all nations who died believing in a messiah or promise of god however they understood that promise were saved

    So basically you are asserting that salvation can be (accomplished? gained? not sure on the right word) posthumously. Which brings the question, if that is the case then, why not now?

    3- What happens to them who die now since jesus but are unfamiliar with the message? I can't be dogmatic on this but neither can you...why? Jesus says "other sheep" he has which are "not of this fold" them he also "must draw". What does that mean? It means that god has got the salvation of the world, including ALL who believe in him under his control...

    So essentially what you are saying is that there will be some who are saved that are not Christian in any sense that we use the term?

    5- You make no room for his supernatural intervention in the hearts and minds of individuals and nations.

    As noted before, results are what matter with me. I see no results in the history to show any such large scale supernatural invention, therefore I don't buy into the premise that it occurs. Your example of Jonah is fatally flawed simply because it was not (if true) a supernatural intervention - it was the direct result of Jonah's preaching.

    So, you cannot make a dogmatic assertions that anyone not hearing will be lost. That's a fundamentalist assertion and superimposition on scripture.

    I was merely parroting Christian dogma. If there is a problem with that it is not my doing.

    One thing is for sure ALL paganism will be subject to the cross and no IDOLS will be accepted before his presence.

    Noting that you are assigning multiple meanings to the term idol (which I do not), I will simply ask one question in response - Why?

    Continued...

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  19. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    It's not a "big wooop" when the DEVIL which is what ALL pagan dieties are, make themselves "strog" or display some sort of ability in this world.

    I'd say the fact that I'm here talking to you instead of dead several times over is a tad more than a "big wooop".

    As for all pagan deities being the devil, well, now who's being dogmatic and fundamentalist?

    who hold your desires and the need to fulfill them higher than service to God...

    Yup. I refuse to serve an entity that doesn't even bother to keep his own promises and who apparently thinks nothing of abandoning his own servants.

    As proof, even in your paganism you are selfish...describing yourself as an anarchist and one unwilling to be committed to any deity...that is the epitome of selfishness...Why believe in a diety at all if you won't commit to them?

    Heh. You don't understand friendship do you? To me, friendship is a bond stronger than any mere religious commitment. I stated that I do not worship, nor do I see a need to worship. What I do pursue and have is friendship. Friends do not demand praise from their friends, nor do they demand obedience from their friends. All that friendship asks is friendship in turn. And this is not even to mention the even closer relationship I share with m'Lady Hekate.

    If you view that as selfishness, if you have some need for an authority figure to obey that forces you to define such as I describe as selfishness, then all I can really say is I feel sorry for you.

    The God of the bible isn't interested in placating the selfish or playing games with the devil.

    Only the selfish have no concern with the needs or thoughts of others.

    Real power is changing a stony heart bent on sin, selfishness, and fleshly desires and setting it free. That's the power of my God. He superceeds ANYTHING that your idols through the powerd of the devil can do!!!

    So you say. I've seen otherwise. Changing a "heart" is in truth a minor act, especially if the individual is willing. But ultimately I have no need to prove to you that my gods, my friends have nothing to do with your devil, nor do I need to play "whose is bigger" in respect to them. Indeed, both such endeavors are ultimately pointless in this environment. I fulfilled the needs of my conscience in stating, in effect, that there is more to the world than is dreampt of in thine philosophy Horatio. Tis all I need do.

    NOW THAT'S THE TRUTH RUTH!!!

    No, it is assertion, unsupported by proof, and nothing more.

    It seems I have touched a nerve here though to inspire such ad hominem. Interesting, though not unexpected.

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  20. Nightmare,

    If I hurled an Ad Hominem, (which I don't believe I did)I'm sorry, I was simply making the statement that failure to committ to idols that you worship (called friends...a rose by any other name???) is simply a selfish act.

    This displays non-committal even if it were me doing it I'd say the same.

    Tell me what you do for these supposed dieties and what do they do for you? Please tell me the best example of M'lady Hekate's power and intervention in your life. Does she promise intervention and where and how is that stated and what proofs does she offer of her ability to do any of what she says to you as a "friend" What historical refereces does she offer, and at what point in history was she ever celebrated as anything more than an idol. I really wanna know. I'm very interested.

    You said this:"So basically you are asserting that salvation can be (accomplished? gained? not sure on the right word) posthumously. Which brings the question, if that is the case then, why not now?"

    I don't understand the question? Please explain.

    You also said:"Only the selfish have no concern with the needs or thoughts of others."

    My daughter cam to us a couple of weekends ago wanting one of her friends to sleep over. We told her no. She insisted we were unfair and didn't like her. She's 7. We gave her no reason, no excuse why? because none was necessary. It was in our power to do and denying her a sleepover made our love no less for her than if she had never asked. There was nothing done ot make up for it...but our answer was no.

    She's fine 2 weeks later, and still asking for a sleep over. See our denying her didn't make ger weak. It may have made her mad, but that was no big matter. It passed. You my friend, are like that person who never get's past a denial from someone who has much greater knowledge that you or I will ever have.

    I AM GLAD that god refused to answer some of the requests I've had over the years. My life would be JACKED if God had just done what I wanted him to do because I asked...Look, grow...get past it...God had everything, even what pertained to you under control. From death of a loved one to the darkest tragedy that you could have ever faced...denial NEVER means that God doesn't love or care...but it sure exposes whether we do or not.

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  21. Let me render a few words about this so called diety that my friend Nightmare renders as some great wonder that is so friendly:

    "For to this day, whenever any one of men on earth offers rich sacrifices and prays for favor according to custom, he calls upon Hecate. Great honor comes full easily to him whose prayers the goddess receives favorably, and she bestows wealth upon him; for the power surely is with her. For as many as were born of Earth and Ocean amongst all these she has her due portion.Hesiod, Theogony, (English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White)

    Is that so? Remember this:
    Mt. 4:8~"8- Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9-And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."

    Hekate is nothing new. Just another devil.

    Here's something else about her:

    Whom she will she greatly aids and advances: she sits by worshipful kings in judgement, and in the assembly whom she will is distinguished among the people. And when men arm themselves for the battle that destroys men, then the goddess is at hand to give victory and grant glory readily to whom she will. Good is she also when men contend at the games, for there too the goddess is with them and profits them: and he who by might and strength gets the victory wins the rich prize easily with joy, and brings glory to his parents. And she is good to stand by horsemen, whom she will: and to those whose business is in the grey discomfortable sea, and who pray to Hecate and the loud-crashing Earth-Shaker, easily the glorious goddess gives great catch, and easily she takes it away as soon as seen, if so she will. She is good in the byre with Hermes to increase the stock. The droves of kine and wide herds of goats and flocks of fleecy sheep, if she will, she increases from a few, or makes many to be less.~ Hesiod, Theogony, (English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White)

    It would seem that blessings are not automatic with M'lady hekate either. There are 6 "if she wills" in this one paragraph. So it would seem that her will is up for discovery and is further simply based on her whims and not any particular method or promise. Whereras we know this:

    1 John 5:14-15~"14-And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15-And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him."

    Now the critic says that's no better than Hekate...well there's a little something that's much better than Hekate could ever even hope to be:

    2 Cor. 1:19-20~"19-For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20-For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us."

    You see, one thing I have assurance of with Christ, that you don't come close to with Hekate, is that Christ's will or God's will through Christ for me is good at ALL times. Hekate is only a subjective mass of wonder and hope. I see why now you call her your friend...with friends like that, you need no enemies...4-real!

    Just thought the readers may want to place this in some perspective. I'll give more if need arises.

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  22. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    I was simply making the statement that failure to committ to idols that you worship (called friends...a rose by any other name???) is simply a selfish act. This displays non-committal even if it were me doing it I'd say the same.

    You failed to grasp the meaning of my response (no biggie, I can be hard to "read" I'm told). In short what I meant is friendship is greater than and more committed than worship IMO. Therefore, I find the charge that this is selfish erroneous and ad hominem. Such illustrates the drastic differences in our mindsets and world views however.

    Tell me what you do for these supposed dieties

    Not much at all really. The occasional ritual of thanksgiving/honor at the appropriate times, the occasional (VERY occasional) sacrifice (NOT blood mind you - generally alcohol, flowers, very rarely food). Mainly I just talk with them and "hang out", as one friend would to another.

    and what do they do for you?

    Mainly act as a mentors and teachers in regards to the ways of the spirit world. When it comes down to it, most have the opinion that it is better to teach me how than do for me. Kinda the "give a man a fish" thing. Gets annoying at times I must admit, since patience isn't a virtue I'm well endowed with (but one I'm having to learn nonetheless).

    Please tell me the best example of M'lady Hekate's power and intervention in your life.....and what proofs does she offer of her ability to do any of what she says to you as a "friend"

    The top two would both be life savers (literally). In chronological order...

    First, I used to work night shift at a casino. High stress, didn't get much sleep, and had an hour to drive to work each night and from work each morning. Thusly, falling asleep at the wheel was a very real problem and danger (several individuals who also worked there had accidents from such, one ended up paralyzed, one died). I worked there three years, and fell asleep at the wheel more times than I can count as a result. There for a while it was virtually every night. Out of those years, I had one accident, which only ended up blowing out two tires. It could have been much worse - there was a semi coming in the other lane. The list of other close calls is too numerous to go into. I know my survival is due to her intervention because 1) I sensed her presence many, many of those nights, and 2) statistically I should be dead. (I find 2 to be the more convincing argument btw)

    Secondly, remember the exorcism I mentioned? Well that entity wasn't too pleased at being evicted. After trying unsuccessfully to persuade me to return it to it's former host, it tried to kill me on two separate occasions. On both occasions my Lady intervened and drove it off, and after the second she aided me in destroying it when I couldn't accomplish that task myself.

    Does she promise intervention

    Nope.

    and where and how is that stated

    No where. For reference's sake, I consider the myths to be just that mainly - myths. They must IMO be taken with a huge grain of salt. But they are a jumping off point, somewhere to start. Ultimately however the only way to get to know her (or any of the pagan gods IMO) is to actually get to know her.

    What historical refereces does she offer, and at what point in history was she ever celebrated as anything more than an idol.

    Aside from the Greek records of her worship, none that I know of. As said though, I take the Greek records with a grain of salt.

    Continued...

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  23. Harvey said:
    You said this:"So basically you are asserting that salvation can be (accomplished? gained? not sure on the right word) posthumously. Which brings the question, if that is the case then, why not now?"

    I don't understand the question? Please explain.


    Basically from your explanation it would seem that one could become saved after death. If this was the case prior to the crucifixion why then could that not still happen now?

    You my friend, are like that person who never get's past a denial from someone who has much greater knowledge that you or I will ever have.

    "Because" as an explanation only works one children (and then only on the dumb ones). I am not a child.

    God had everything, even what pertained to you under control.

    Then he should have fulfilled his promises and not abandoned a faithful servant to the enemy.

    ReplyDelete
  24. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    that is so friendly:

    Friendly to me. I never said she liked everyone, although I will relay that she finds you amusing.

    Is that so? Remember this:
    Mt. 4:8~"8- Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9-And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."

    Hekate is nothing new. Just another devil.


    By this very loose standard, so is your god. Check out this little article of mine for a comparison:

    http://twilightgods.blogspot.com/2007/07/seduction.html

    It would seem that blessings are not automatic with M'lady hekate either. There are 6 "if she wills" in this one paragraph. So it would seem that her will is up for discovery and is further simply based on her whims and not any particular method or promise.

    Yup, just like every person in the world. If she likes an individual, she will aid them. If not, well, not. To say it is up to her whims is inaccurate though - that makes it sound like she changes her mind on a daily basis or something. From experience, this is not the case. As for promise, she has no scriptures, no holy books, nothing of that sort. So where then would this promise (to everyone I presume you mean) be stated? Your objections make little sense.

    (btw, there is no need for you to refer to her as "m'lady". That's an honorific, and after all she isn't your Lady (Lady being the feminine of Lord in my usage). Just noting.)

    Whereras we know this:
    1 John 5:14-15~"14-And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15-And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him."


    ROFLMAO! You claim THIS as an example of your god's superiority and fidelity, when this is proven false on a daily basis??? LOL Harvey, you are too much.

    Now the critic says that's no better than Hekate...well there's a little something that's much better than Hekate could ever even hope to be:

    2 Cor. 1:19-20~"19-For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20-For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us."


    Yes, I know well the value of those promises. What precisely is this supposed to prove, anyway? The assurance you claim below certainly doesn't follow from this passage.

    You see, one thing I have assurance of with Christ, that you don't come close to with Hekate, is that Christ's will or God's will through Christ for me is good at ALL times.

    The assurance of a proven liar is no assurance at all. My Lady does not make empty claims, she acts. I find that far more reassuring than words in a book could ever be.

    Just thought the readers may want to place this in some perspective. I'll give more if need arises.

    A google search will actually provide with more detailed information on the myths etc regarding her. There are some links on my blog as well.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Nightmare,

    You said:"In short what I meant is friendship is greater than and more committed than worship IMO."

    Yes, there is a diffence in worldviews and values, because what one worship's is greater than a mere friend.

    You said regarding what your idol does for you:"Mainly act as a mentors and teachers in regards to the ways of the spirit world."

    That's called gnosticism. The knowledge you receive is from universal sources and may or may not be valid.

    So far as your testimony goes for what Hekate has done...you would BERADE me any any other Christian for anything that even sounds like that...That was a mess. This deity, makes no promise to even help you in any way...whether that's verbal or written...is not bound by a covenant with you and yet you attribute things that your consider to be good to her association with you???? That's a TOTAL mess.

    This devil that you worship is described as the guardian of the gates of the underworld, thuse her saving you from death is he supposed "duty"...but that's IF she saved you at all which i know she didn't and couldn't because she's only imaginary...

    To compare evidence for her to evidence for Christianity is like trying to plug up Niagra falls with a 3.5 inch stone...It just doesn't work...Christ has demonstrated his paower and authority over life and death and left manifold witnesses by multiple historical attestation by both friend and foe, left eyewitness tesimony to teh fact that according to Dr. Simon Greanleaf is admissable in virtually any court of law where evidence is a standard and viewed highly. He has met all historical critical criteria established even by the most critical scholars and to dare compare all of that with this "dumb" idol is a travesty...Cast all the spells you want regarding that...this devil is a liar and a mess!

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  26. Man I'll place Jesus against these devils ANY DAY OF THE WEEK for there is no comparison between Christ and these shoddy idols...That's what all devils are...SHODDY!!! Hekate is no less than a worn out used wanna be, that has deceived because she can and obviously it's so easy.

    What? Because people would belive a lie...

    The things that this guy reports that the devil has done for him are laughable. For instance I offered PROOF of a man who dies and came back to life on an atheist web site and they tried all they could to explain it away...The problem is that man is yet alive and has the news clips and all the prove by a third party source that he was dead and that God JESUS CHRIST rose him from the dead after 45 minutes and they still don't believe...I gave them testimony of how God healed my body when I was a young non-believer and they still don't believe, then to present MESS like this as proof of a deity of RIDICULOUS!

    Jesus stands more than head and shoulders above these fake god and real devils. In fact they are only able to be located UNDER his feet! That's appropriate because they're all nothing more than DIRT!

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  27. Don't come here with a godless testimony to a devil...I'll blow it up just for fun like I do devils everyday I live according to the word of God!

    This is the DUNAMIS WORD...Get a vision on that!

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  28. Over at DC I had you pegged as an abusive loudmouthed jackass. But when I came here I decided to be polite and give you the benefit of the doubt because frankly your invitation threw me for a loop and made me wonder if perhaps I was wrong. But I see I wasn't (big surprise). I've had enough of your ad hominem trash and insults, kid gloves are off now.

    District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    That's called gnosticism. The knowledge you receive is from universal sources and may or may not be valid.

    Actually Gnosticism has nothing to do with it. A simple google or wiki search will reveal that. It seems you definitely have much to learn.

    And further if you think I simply except information uncritically from any source you've learned nothing of me.

    So far as your testimony goes for what Hekate has done...you would BERADE me any any other Christian for anything that even sounds like that...

    Not if, as in the first case, survival was as improbable as the circumstances implied. Do NOT group me with the mindless skeptic whose knee jerk reaction to everything is to deride it. There is a difference, though you refuse to see it.

    This deity, makes no promise to even help you in any way...whether that's verbal or written...is not bound by a covenant with you and yet you attribute things that your consider to be good to her association with you???? That's a TOTAL mess.

    Only with the realm of your thought, where apparently everything needs to be written in triplicate and signed in blood before it can be acknowledged. You are nothing more than a lawyer at heart it seems.

    This devil that you worship is described as the guardian of the gates of the underworld, thuse her saving you from death is he supposed "duty"

    Not duty, but within the realm of capability. And there comes that worship thing again. Apparently you either aren't listening to a word I say or simply can't understand my mindset.

    To compare evidence for her to evidence for Christianity is like trying to plug up Niagra falls with a 3.5 inch stone...It just doesn't work...Christ has demonstrated his paower and authority over life and death and left manifold witnesses by multiple historical attestation by both friend and foe, left eyewitness tesimony to teh fact that according to Dr. Simon Greanleaf is admissable in virtually any court of law where evidence is a standard and viewed highly.

    Bull. The guys over at DC prove you wrong on a daily basis, as have I in the hell thread. You simply chose not to accept it. Such is ultimately not my problem.

    Don't come here with a godless testimony to a devil...I'll blow it up just for fun like I do devils everyday I live according to the word of God!

    This is the DUNAMIS WORD...Get a vision on that!


    YOU invited me here and YOU asked me for said "testimony". And now you can't handle what you've ran into so you throw a tantrum of ranting and blind dogma. What a hyprocrite, considering you stated "I don't like ranters" - apparently that means ranters other than yourself. You are nothing but a blowhard with a book.
    So congregations, you've lived up to the example of self righteous arrogance shown by virtually every Christian I've ever met.

    And as for being dynamic, all I've seen is the same old crap, excuses, and lies rehashed by yet other snake oil salesman who refuses to acknowledge anything that he doesn't already agree with. Nothing dynamic about that.

    Goodbye.

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  29. Nightmare,

    Now that's what I call an apologetic for your god. I didn't mention you so much as I mentioned the weakness of your god and you take offense???

    We got a good objective look...You change worship to "friendship", you change god to "friend" why? so it can conveniently fit in the box of normal that you're trying to create...THAT'S HYPOCRITICAL my friend...Call it what it is...she's an idol god that you WORSHIP...you may go visit her once in a blue moon but you speak to the devil and have a relationship with her...you're an idol worshipper...don't come here thinking that your quainte descriptions will take that away...IT WON'T!

    Take offense. That's ok, the truth usually makes lovers of sin respond as you do. I just wanted you to know, as I believe you do, that this deity (devil) is just that...A DEVIL, that you entertain.

    Anyway, #2- Neither DC NOR You do NOTHING but loose in most threads that attempt to deal with the bible morality etc...and YOU SPECIFICALLY in the Hell thread LOST as anyone who opposses truth.

    People can read the conclusions and you refuted nothing in and of the article...to say that hell doesn't exist because you don't want it to is hardly a winning argument...So what??? I've been arguing at DC for over a year and a half and there's no argument I've either been ashamed of or lost in the least...so your revisionism is silly.

    and #3 I can RANT as I wish...this is my time and effort and ministry extension, most Christian bloggers wouldn't allow you to promote your devil in the first place...You simply say that you found more solice in a devil than god because of what she does for you...when asking you to explain what she does you offer very simple, garden variety, unhistorical, and unfounded proofs and yet criticize the bible and the TRUE AND LIVING GOD for being absent or mythical...What leg have you to stand on with that devil...you have NOTHING...it's toally bankrupt and offers NOTHING that even comes close in comparison...what I'm saying is there is NO COMPARISON between Hekate and God in the least...

    I'm not sorry that you took offense. As you state there is a CLEAR difference between our destination and what we honor when it comes to this matter at least and I'm glad for the clear distinction...I'm not mad at you, don't be mad at me, Just know that Jesus is Lord even if you think he didn't answer your prayers...

    Later

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  30. Time for a deep cleansing breath.

    1 As the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, O God.

    2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When can I go and meet with God?

    3 My tears have been my food day and night, while men say to me all day long, "Where is your God?"

    4 These things I remember as I pour out my soul: how I used to go with the multitude, leading the procession to the house of God, with shouts of joy and thanksgiving among the festive throng.

    5 Why are you downcast, O my soul? Why so disturbed within me?
    Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and

    6 my God. My soul is downcast within me; therefore I will remember you from the land of the Jordan, the heights of Hermon—from Mount Mizar.

    7 Deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls; all your waves and breakers have swept over me.

    8 By day the LORD directs his love, at night his song is with me— a prayer to the God of my life.

    9 I say to God my Rock,
    "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

    10 My bones suffer mortal agony as my foes taunt me, saying to me all day long, "Where is your God?"

    11 Why are you downcast, O my soul? Why so disturbed within me?
    Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God.

    Vindicate me, O God, and plead my cause against an ungodly nation;
    rescue me from deceitful and wicked men.

    2 You are God my stronghold. Why have you rejected me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?

    3 Send forth your light and your truth, let them guide me; let them bring me to your holy mountain, to the place where you dwell.

    4 Then will I go to the altar of God, to God, my joy and my delight. I will praise you with the harp, O God, my God.

    5 Why are you downcast, O my soul? Why so disturbed within me?
    Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God.

    ~Psalm 42 and 43

    Isn't that beautiful? I can't tell you how many times this scripture by the man "after God's own heart" has comforted me.

    David, through self-talk, made a choice. So much in life is about the choices we make. Lord give us wisdom to make right choices.

    ---------------

    The topic is a difficult one and with no definitive answer as to HOW the grace of God appears to ALL men for their acceptance of rejection. We take it on faith that His Word is Truth, as we also believe the truth that He cannot lie (Titus 1:2)

    Don't know if y'all have ever caught "the Bible Answer Man" on the radio, but sometimes he drives me crazy giving definitive answers to every question when in truth, we only know in part. Sometimes he has to spiritualize God's Word to answer and that leaves a gapping hole somewhere else that he then has to spiritualize, and you're just left with nonsense.

    Perhaps, if more was revealed to us of the world's salvation, there would have been no eagerness and rush to proclaim the Good News as we sat back and just knew that God would take care of it? I dunno.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Laura,

    That's the thing that the bible critic doesn't understand...WE believers don't have to know every answer to every question in specific detail to do our duty of providing a "reasonable answer".

    God's got all the details under his control and nobody that wants to be saved will be lost...That's what "faith" is about...I believe the scripture has said that "He that has begun a good work in you is able to perform it until the day of our Lord"...Our faith is in the process with assurance. All we have to do is our part. He'll take care of both what we don't understand and things beyond our control.

    ReplyDelete
  32. "All we have to do is our part. He'll take care of both what we don't understand and things beyond our control.

    Harvey, wanted to let you know that God just spoke to me through you, answering my prayer I prayed last night.

    "Therefore do not worry, saying "what shall we eat?...For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things." Matthew 6:31

    "And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus."
    ~Philippians 4:19

    It was a prayer about where personal responsibility and faith collide.

    Thank you.
    And I praise God for answered prayer!

    ReplyDelete
  33. I have returned here ONLY because Laura asked me to and because someone else seems pleased by the idea. Let me make this clear - I do not wish to be and view such as a waste of my time. But as a favor to her, I am here for now.

    That changes nothing however.

    District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    Now that's what I call an apologetic for your god. I didn't mention you so much as I mentioned the weakness of your god and you take offense???

    As I told Laura, you can call my Lady whatever you please - she's a big girl, she can take care of herself should she wish to. And ultimately I expect the same attitude out of others as well.

    The heart of the matter is this - you made it personal. You knew approximately what you were getting when you invited me here (and could have known alot more if you bothered to look over my blog). You specifically asked for my "testimony". And then you proceeded to whine and complain when I gave you what you asked for, to insult me and my intelligence via implication as well ("That's a TOTAL mess.", "that has deceived because she can and obviously it's so easy.", "The things that this guy reports that the devil has done for him are laughable." ), and to assume as my opinion the opinions of others ("you would BERADE me any any other Christian for anything that even sounds like that...", "For instance I offered PROOF of a man who dies and came back to life on an atheist web site and they tried all they could to explain it away").

    The biggest piss-me-off was this however - "Don't come here with a godless testimony to a devil." - when you specifically asked me to do so.

    In short, you basically asked me into to house, knowing what you were getting, asked me to tell you about my life, and then threw a fit when I did as you requested. That is what I took offense at, what pissed me off.

    Continued...

    ReplyDelete
  34. Harvey said:
    so it can conveniently fit in the box of normal that you're trying to create....don't come here thinking that your quainte descriptions will take that away...IT WON'T!

    Keep up the lies, please. Tick me off more. I already explained to you why I don't consider it worship. If you can't handle that and need to cram me into some little box so I fit into your world view that ain't my problem. But don't you DARE tell me I'm trying to lie here. I've been nothing but honest to the truth as I see it. If you can't handle that, tough.

    Anyway, #2- Neither DC NOR You do NOTHING but loose in most threads that attempt to deal with the bible morality etc...and YOU SPECIFICALLY in the Hell thread LOST as anyone who opposses truth.

    Whatever. Tell the guys at DC that, I'm sure they'll laugh you out of the house. I supported my points thoroughly. You gave nothing but assertion and sidetracking blather.

    to say that hell doesn't exist because you don't want it to is hardly a winning argument...

    Where to you get this crap? Did I ever say hell doesn't exist? Puhleeze.

    and #3 I can RANT as I wish...this is my time and effort and ministry extension,

    So? If you hate something in others yet do it in your own house that doesn't make you any less of a hypocrite.

    You simply say that you found more solice in a devil than god

    And you would have me give up that solace for what? YOUR brand of simple, garden variety, unhistorical, and unfounded proofs?

    and yet criticize the bible and the TRUE AND LIVING GOD for being absent or mythical...

    Yup. Because I'VE BEEN THERE DONE THAT AND FOUND IT WANTING. Perhaps you don't understand that simple point. You likely assume it was some little or trivial matter, some everyday thing. It was not. You don't know me or my past, nor will you - I don't trust you with it. You have the choice to accept what I am telling you as the truth of my life as I know it, or to reject that and call me a liar (again). But know this, I am not your or anyone elses punching bag.

    I'm not sorry that you took offense.

    No, those that believe they are always right are never sorry for anything. I know the type well, and have seen it many times before.

    don't be mad at me,

    Far too late for that. The ball is in your court now, and your choices will determine how this goes forward. I have fulfilled my word and done all that such requires of me.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Laura said...
    The topic is a difficult one and with no definitive answer as to HOW the grace of God appears to ALL men for their acceptance of rejection.

    And that's what bothers me. On a topic this important there should by all rights be a definitive answer, because we aren't just talking about some hypothetical here but rather (if Christianity is true) about whether or not the majority of the planet's population is to be tortured forever for no fault of their own. But there isn't a definitive answer, or even a good one. If one is honest with oneself the question of why that is must be asked and answered.

    We take it on faith that His Word is Truth, as we also believe the truth that He cannot lie (Titus 1:2)

    But with all due respect Laura, what if you are wrong? Further, when faith and evidence collide one must come up as truth. Faith - as mere belief - is always on the short end of the stick compared to real objective evidence in that case, IMO.

    Perhaps, if more was revealed to us of the world's salvation, there would have been no eagerness and rush to proclaim the Good News as we sat back and just knew that God would take care of it? I dunno.

    Indeed.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Nightmare, if you go, you'll be missed.



    Please don't go.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Nightmare,

    Sorry to have offended the way I did...I wanted the testimony to do a quality comparison...I mean here we are being belittled by you for serving God who has been very active directly in our lives and many of us reading can testify to that...we've see his power work directly in our lives and in the lives of others...and you claim the same of your idol...only to find that what she's done can only be summed as as being conincidence and wishful thinking...That's ok, that's you, but there is no comparison to God and what we see either in the word or through personal experiences...I just asked you to put the cards on the table and your hand proved to be extremely weak.

    Secondly, I don't mind your commentary. You do present some thought provoking points...if you're not an atheist, don't approach subjects like one so we won't get you confused.

    Finally it is a LIE for you to try to convince us that simply changing the terms, changes the actuality of what you do with the devil that you worship...if you don't like me being specific soooo what!

    You worship a demon and you call it talking with a friend...you practice idolotry...you receive information from the cosmos which is nothing more than either demonic babblings or thoughts from your own inner conscience...You pray and call it a conversation...You even sacrifice and probably only call it a dinner party...you have no objective standards to even measure whether what you received is accurate, appropriate or anything other than something that comes from your brain...that's gnosticism and devil worship...So that's the TRUTH and that's what I and the countless other Christians that read see and I'll say so...

    So call me what you want...but the TRUTH get's told around here even if I'm the only one that will say it.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands.

    Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing.

    Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

    Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.

    For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
    ~Psalm 100

    Just posting what the Spirit told me to.

    I see both your points. Nightmare, I know this is sudden, but maybe times' a wastin'. I think you have a decision to make. God is calling, and you can't bring your friend.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Nightmare said "And that's what bothers me. On a topic this important there should by all rights be a definitive answer, because we aren't just talking about some hypothetical here but rather (if Christianity is true) about whether or not the majority of the planet's population is to be tortured forever for no fault of their own."

    But they won't be condemned through no fault of their own. We know that because God's Word tells us. "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11

    God breathed it, I believe it. So it's not important to know the details of how He is accomplishing this, only that He is. We have His word, His promise.

    But with all due respect Laura, what if you are wrong?

    If I'm wrong, then when we die we turn to dust and that's it. But the power of God working in my life day to day assures me that I am not believing in vain.

    Further, when faith and evidence collide one must come up as truth. Faith - as mere belief - is always on the short end of the stick compared to real objective evidence in that case, IMO.

    Yes, there can only be one Truth. But we aren't saddled with having to go by faith alone - we have the living Word of God, and any serious study of the Bible will reveal His Truth backed by solid history. Scoffers have been looking for YEARS for just one thing to show as a lie in the Bible and have yet to find anything.

    Prophecy ALONE proves the Bible is the Word of God, and in these last days of the "time of the Gentiles", it's exciting times as we watch prophecy unfold before our eyes and the soon return of Jesus.

    I find it easy to argue against the scoffers the Word of God because they are so transparent, needing to make things up to prop up their argument, and they are easily exposed when doing so. But the sad thing is they have hardened their heart to ANY truth, and are just looking for as many to take down with them as possible. But you're not them.

    I praise God that I didn't turn from Him in doubt through the years or I wouldn't have so much "proof" in my life experience now. I know that I know that I know.

    It's like a seed in a crack in cement. If it's nourished by soil and rain, it grows and can crack the sidewalk. If left to continue to grow and be nourished, it can get so big and strong that it can't be pulled out.

    But the same thing can happen with a nourished seed of destruction.

    ReplyDelete
  40. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    Sorry to have offended the way I did...

    Apology accepted.

    I mean here we are being belittled by you for serving God

    You misunderstand. It was never my intention to belittle you or Laura. If I came across that way or said anything specifically that sounded that way I am sorry. Yes, I criticized your god - and will continue to do so - but in doing that I meant no insult the people involved. Like I stated regarding Hekate - she's a big girl and can take care of herself. I presume such to be true of your god or any entity worthy of the name as well - thus I expect a similar attitude as mine from others in terms of religious debate. Perhaps too much of a presumption, but I truly cannot see how religious debate can functions otherwise.

    Further, I do not consider being wrong or mistaken or lacking in information to be a horrifically negative condition, as all are easily resolved if one has the will to. Thus, I don't consider being told one is wrong, mistaken, etc an insult (unless such is stated in an insulting manner).

    and you claim the same of your idol...only to find that what she's done can only be summed as as being conincidence and wishful thinking...That's ok, that's you, but there is no comparison to God and what we see either in the word or through personal experiences...

    Objectively speaking, from an atheistic perspective, we have in common that what we regard as proof can easily be dismissed by the skeptic as coincidence, natural causes, and wishful thinking. If that were not true, this would be a far different world and we wouldn't be having this discussion most likely. Thusly, I contend that there is a direct comparison between my Lady and your god. I hope you can at least see the logic in that, if not agree.

    Moreover, and more importantly, were in have I ever stated that I wished to promote paganism? I was merely speaking about my life and my beliefs - I have no desire to convert anyone here. In truth I really don't have a goal here.

    I just asked you to put the cards on the table and your hand proved to be extremely weak.

    As i honestly find your metaphorical hand. As an atheist finds both our hands. The question is where does that leave us?

    Continued...

    ReplyDelete
  41. Harvey said:
    if you're not an atheist, don't approach subjects like one so we won't get you confused.

    I cannot, because as you see I find their line of logic sound. I accept that since I cannot objectively prove my claims the possibility exists that I may simply be delusional. I accept that I could be wrong. To be honest with ourselves I think there is no other stance we can take. It is my contention though that even if it is the case I am delusional (while I don't think I am), at the very least my delusions harm no one. The same cannot be said of Christianity, or Islam, or some other religions IMO.

    I shall endeavor in the future however to note when I am speaking from an atheistic perspective.

    Finally it is a LIE for you to try to convince us that simply changing the terms, changes the actuality of what you do with the devil that you worship...if you don't like me being specific soooo what!

    You still don't get it. The difference is one of attitude. As I stated, I see the major components of worship as praise and obedience, and thusly I see a worshipful mindset as little different than slavery. While I admit that the trappings of my practice are the same as those of worship - and never stated they were not - I contend that it is the mindset and nature of the relationship that differentiate it from worship. If you cannot accept that and need to cram me into some box so I fit into your worldview, so be it and I pity you for it. BUT do NOT claim that I am lying - a statement that implies malicious intent - when I tell you the truth as I see it. Doing so asks for a fight, as I'm sure you understand.

    that's gnosticism

    Your lack of information, or embrace of misinformation, truly astounds me. THIS

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

    is Gnosticism. "Gnosticism (Greek: γνῶσις gnōsis, knowledge) refers to diverse, syncretistic religious movements in antiquity consisting of various belief systems generally united in the teaching that humans are divine souls trapped in a material world created by an imperfect god, the demiurge; this being is frequently identified with the Abrahamic god, and is contrasted with a superior entity, referred to by several terms including Pleroma and Godhead[1]........Thus, broadly speaking, Gnosticism was a dualistic religion, influenced by and influencing Hellenic philosophy, Judaism (see Notzrim), and Christianity;[citation needed] however, by contrast, later strands of the movement, such as the Valentinians, held a monistic world-view[3]."

    While I can studied Gnosticism to a minor degree, I am not nor have I ever been a Gnostic.

    So call me what you want...but the TRUTH get's told around here even if I'm the only one that will say it.

    You may act the martyr or lone prophet (which I may note is an implied insult to every other Christian who posts here - "even if I'm the only one that will say it") if you wish, but it is statements such as this that make me wonder if you're actually interested in conversation or whether simple self-aggrandizement is your goal.

    Further, statements such as that which you made about Gnosticism tell me that you have a great deal to learn, and thus make me question your concept of truth highly.

    I hope you can see now why you come across as insulting/abusive at times - it is not the "offense of the cross" as you stated earlier, but rather the way you deliver what you perceive to be truth that gives that impression.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Laura said...
    Nightmare, if you go, you'll be missed.

    Please don't go.


    I will be true to my word, save of course if banned or if it becomes intolerable (Nightmare bows graciously). :D

    Laura said...
    I see both your points. Nightmare, I know this is sudden, but maybe times' a wastin'. I think you have a decision to make. God is calling

    Would a just god damn me for operating under mistaken impressions? And would a god that does be showing either justice or love towards me?

    If I am mistaken let him tell me, show me - himself, so there is no possibility of denial. If not, well.....

    and you can't bring your friend.

    I ask the same I did of Harvey - why not?

    Regardless, I have loyalty Laura. I do not abandon or betray my friends without good cause.

    Laura said...
    But they won't be condemned through no fault of their own. We know that because God's Word tells us. "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11

    Then it is your opinion that people that have never heard the slightest whisper of the Christian message, much less accepted it, can or will be saved?

    God breathed it, I believe it. So it's not important to know the details of how He is accomplishing this, only that He is. We have His word, His promise.

    When the promises are found wanting the details become very, very important.

    If I'm wrong, then when we die we turn to dust and that's it.

    In the materialist perspective only. There are many other perspectives. What if, for instance, your god is some sort of monster that damns people for no fault of their own - can you imagine what eternity with a sadistic creature like that would be? Or what if say Islam is correct and by worshiping Jesus you are ticking off Allah? Once one introduces the supernatural into the discussion, virtually any possibility becomes viable.

    But the power of God working in my life day to day assures me that I am not believing in vain.

    See, my position is that, while accepting something is working in your life, we can't really know what it is (the same holds true of myself). Thus making claims such as this - "We take it on faith that His Word is Truth, as we also believe the truth that He cannot lie (Titus 1:2)" - is unfounded.

    Yes, there can only be one Truth.

    In this world, yes - but that gets into areas that are entirely theoretical.

    we have the living Word of God, and any serious study of the Bible will reveal His Truth backed by solid history. Scoffers have been looking for YEARS for just one thing to show as a lie in the Bible and have yet to find anything.

    Umm, you haven't read much on the topic outside of Christian literature have you? For instance

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

    effectively proves that the flood of Noah is nothing more than a fable. Given that and reems of other information, how can one be certain the bible is the word of anything more than some guys in the Middle East a long time ago?

    Continued....

    ReplyDelete
  43. Laura said:
    Prophecy ALONE proves the Bible is the Word of God, and in these last days of the "time of the Gentiles", it's exciting times as we watch prophecy unfold before our eyes and the soon return of Jesus.

    Howso? Christians have been saying that for 2000 years and we still have nothing to show for it. In fact, the bible's Jesus himself disproves such a claim:

    http://www.evilbible.com/end_times.htm

    I find it easy to argue against the scoffers the Word of God because they are so transparent, needing to make things up to prop up their argument, and they are easily exposed when doing so.

    I daresay you shant find me so easy ;)

    But the sad thing is they have hardened their heart to ANY truth, and are just looking for as many to take down with them as possible. But you're not them.

    Thank you :D In truth, while the bible and the preachers would have you believe that such individuals have "hardened their heart" and are looking to harm others, that is most often not the case. The majority have simply not found the bible/Christianity to be the truth it is claimed to be, and are trying to share what they have learned and correct the mistakes of other (mistakes they once made), and help others lead better lives. Just as I am in passing here (this may sound like it contradicts what I said about not having a goal - it does not. Why? Because if I had a goal I'd have come here with that intent, and be working more actively toward it. I'm just basically talking as I pass by here. A fine line yes, but an important one IMO).

    But the same thing can happen with a nourished seed of destruction.

    Heh, to quote Marilyn Manson "your lies have watered me, so I become the strongest weed". You see, this is my entire point - the more the believer

    1) states false information (Harvey on Gnosticism for example),

    2)makes unfounded or questionable assertions ("Scoffers have been looking for YEARS for just one thing to show as a lie in the Bible and have yet to find anything."),

    3) bases their claims on things they can't prove or that are illogical at face value ("we have the living Word of God" - if it's living we should see behavior like a living creature, it doesn't therefore to claim it is living is illogical),

    4) or makes unfounded judgments against vast groups of people that they don't know ("But the sad thing is they have hardened their heart to ANY truth, and are just looking for as many to take down with them as possible."),

    the more the unbeliever simply discounts the entire message whole cloth. This happens regardless of what good intention any given believer such as yourself may have. And this goes for ANY believer - stop and think how many believers each of those hard hearted scoffers has run into, all using the same tactics, making the same claims, all watering that weed of unbelief or rebellion or destruction (whichever you please to call it). Who's fault is it truly then when an unbeliever chooses to disregard the message?

    (I don't mean to pick on you in this, k? Just seeing echoes of many many other people's words in what you said, and thus quoting what is convenient to make the point.)

    ReplyDelete
  44. I don't feel picked on at all, and the day that I stop listening to criticism and stop trying to be a more effective representative of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be the day He comes for me. I (underlined) have never lead anyone to the Lord. I'm not an evangelist and don't pretend to be. I'm a warrior for Christ.

    And as much as I hate to feed my mind the nonsense and lies I know I'll find on those links you posted, I'm going to go read them so I can expose them and hopefully breakdown a stronghold in YOUR mind.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Nightmare said "Howso? Christians have been saying that for 2000 years and we still have nothing to show for it. In fact, the bible's Jesus himself disproves such a claim:(link provided)

    The link provided is to a site that just shows willful ignorance of the Bible. I couldn't even make it past the first two lines without seeing their error. So I ask you please, open your heart to the truth I'm going to show you and don't try to defend someone else's words when they don't even want to know the truth.

    First line from web page: "Jesus and his apostles made MANY prophecies concerning the Armageddon. Christians would have you believe that it shall come as “a thief in the night”.

    It's not Armageddon that will come as a thief in the night. It's when Jesus comes for His Church that will be a day we don't know or expect "as a thief in the night".

    How do we know this for sure? Because Jesus says that no man, or even the angels in Heaven know the day. Only our Father in Heaven knows the day. Yet we WILL know the day of His Second Coming, when His feet touch the Mt. of Olives, so Jesus was talking about two seperate events.

    Here are the rapture verses so we can compare them to His Second Coming verses:

    Mat. 24:36,42,44,50
    Mat. 25:13
    1 Thes. 4:18
    Tit. 2:13
    1 John 2:28, 3:2-3

    The Second Coming verses tell us that there are many events that have to take place before (unlike the rapture that could happen today). Just a few to show the difference:

    Rev. 12:13-17 and Zec. 13:7-9 - the rise of the anitchrist

    Dan. 9:27 - the treaty with Israel the antichrist instagates

    Mat. 24:15,
    2 Thess. 2:3-4
    Rev. 11:1-2 all speak of the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

    Rev. 6 - 18 tell us about all the plagues and judgments, how much of the population will be wiped out, etc., all as part of the 7 year Tribulation which precedes His Second Coming.

    Because the rapture could happen at any time and His Second Coming is preceded by so many specific events in seven years, and that I have yet to see scripture that contradicts itself when closely examined, I am confident these are two seperate events.

    Let me see if I can find the scripture that says the day of the Lords return. 2250 days I believe from the beginning of the Tribulation.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Nightmare said "In truth, while the bible and the preachers would have you believe that such individuals have "hardened their heart" and are looking to harm others, that is most often not the case. The majority have simply not found the bible/Christianity to be the truth it is claimed to be, and are trying to share what they have learned and correct the mistakes of other (mistakes they once made), and help others lead better lives.

    They are blind to who controls them because if this statement was true, they wouldn't spend so much time lying about the Word of God.

    One of those "trying to help others" is Oprah's new geru (Tolle)who teaches we are god. Now where have we heard that one before? (Genesis 3)

    ReplyDelete
  47. Well, I can't find it right now - searching in Daniel.

    But we don't even need the scripture I was looking for to see that His Second Coming will not be "like a thief in the night" (the rapture).

    In Revelations, at the end of the Tribulation, the Two Witnesses will be killed and lay in the streets for the very specific 3 and a half days. The the whole world will see them stand up and God will resurrect them to Heaven. Then the "third woe" will come quickly, which is His Second Coming.

    Anyone left who reads the Bible (or listens to those who have) should not be surprised at the timing of His Second Coming. So Jesus and the Apostles were talking about the rapture of the church being "like a thief in the night".

    Everything under those first two sentances from that website is going to be based on error of what the Bible teaches, so...
    where do you want me to start?

    ReplyDelete
  48. Let's just take the first 7 points he lists on that site. He is saying the same 2 things 7 times.

    1..."all these things will come upon this generation."

    What generationwas Jesus talking about? The generation that sees the signs He spoke of.

    2..."There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

    And this was true. Let's look at the scripture:

    "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

    And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

    And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him..."
    ~Matthew 16:28 17:1-3

    Now I ask you, is this guy trying to HELP us by quoting out of context, or is he an instrument of the devil? The blind leading the blind, hoping all fall into the same pit and no one seeks the truth for themselves?

    ReplyDelete
  49. Nightmare said "Umm, you haven't read much on the topic outside of Christian literature have you? For instance (link given noah's ark)

    1. Building the Ark - argues that a wooden ship 450 feet long would not be seaworthy.

    The Wyoming was 450 feet long and was in service between 1909-1924, 15 years on the sea before it sank.

    2. Gathering the Animals - based on his own numbers of 15764 animals he states that would be one animal every 38 seconds for 7 days. By his own statement, not impossible.

    God didn't tell Noah to go gather all the animals, He told him to bring the animals into the ark. God said "two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive." Doesn't sound like a gathering mission to me, so all that stuff where he argues the logistics of gathering is built on scriptural error.

    3. Fitting the Animals Aboard - He takes a feasibility study based on species that show they could all fit in the ark and only use 47% of the space. Then he says, "but that's assuming they are young", AFTER he says that the greatest number of species are small species. Then, he just throws in "Collecting each species instead of each genus would increase the number of individuals three- to fourfold" and that's his entire argument. Like we aren't suppose to see that the study was on species in the first place!

    His opinion (we sure can't call it "proof" as you said) continues in this vein, totally unscientific. But the one that was the funniest is number 7:

    7. Producing the Geological Record - "Most people who believe in a global flood also believe that the flood was responsible for creating all fossil-bearing strata."

    Most people? First I ever heard of it! Having set up a make believe argument that all fossil-bearing strata was created in 40 days and 40 nights, he then goes on to prove his make-believe argument is false - the longest of his posts.

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  50. Laura,

    Do your thang lady! You're killin' 'em (I don't mean a person either, I mean your information is FANTASTIC!)

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  51. Really, Harvey? (blush)
    Those sites weren't as bad as some I've seen that were actually demonic, weaving their web of lies for satan's sole purpose of casting doubt. More like tentacles reaching into your brain as they slyly move one word in front of the other so many times you don't know where to start to expose their deception.

    Those two sites I looked at came from pride; that they think they know something you don't know, so it was like shooting fish in a barrel.

    I'm hopeful that you will change your mind about sticking around for the tribulation. Because this is what I'll be taking part in after the rapture:

    The raptured Church will participate in is a judgment by God — the Judgment of the Just. This judgment on works is not to determine eternal destiny, but to determine degrees of reward
    (2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 19:6-9).

    The second event is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. This feast celebrates the spiritual marriage of Christ's Bride — the Church — to her Savior.

    Revelation 19:7-9 tells us of this wonderful celebration, "Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. Then the angel said to me, 'Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' And he added, 'These are the true words of God.'"

    The third event follows the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and is the Church's preparation to follow the King of Kings into the Battle of Armageddon at the conclusion of the Tribulation - the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19:11-21).

    Revelation 19:14 identifies the Church in their "fine linen, white and clean", which was given to us. The Church and angelic forces follow the King of Kings into His Second Coming to the earth, but only Jesus Himself will engage in battle and with mere words defeats the nations in siege against Jerusalem.

    It's going to be way-cool! I hope to see you and Nightmare there. And even though we have never met, we will know each other instantly, and we'll point our fingers at one another and scream with delight over what has happened, grinning like silly people. :-)

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  52. Laura said...
    I'm a warrior for Christ.

    Conversation is not the same as war, sorry.

    And as much as I hate to feed my mind the nonsense and lies I know I'll find on those links you posted,

    Why? Do you fear it? If it's all "nonsense and lies" what is there to fear? Further, I find that quote amusing given that the evilbible site is basically direct quotes from the bible (in context) XD Just noting.

    I'm going to go read them

    Thank you, that's more than many others would do. And thank you Harvey for letting the links through - again, more than many others would.

    Laura said...
    The link provided is to a site that just shows willful ignorance of the Bible.

    For clarity's sake I should note I consider that author's commentary pointless. The reason I chose that site was because it had all the relevant verses in one spot, and I can't remember chapter and verse to save my life (same with road numbers/names, etc) - ie it was convenient.

    So I ask you please, open your heart to the truth I'm going to show you and don't try to defend someone else's words when they don't even want to know the truth.

    Listening, but not uncritically (as you should expect ;) ). As for defending the author, well, see above XD IMO that author needs some reading comprehension help.

    Everything under those first two sentances from that website is going to be based on error of what the Bible teaches, so...
    where do you want me to start?


    Before we start in this, I should make something very clear - the bible means nothing to me. It is nothing more than a collection of smaller books some guys wrote to note what they believed. Thusly, quoting the bible as an argument from authority is pointless in the long run as the bible has no authority in my eyes. Not trying to be difficult, just clearly explaining the challenge before you, k?

    That noted, the rapture verses, the stuff for Revelations, etc is basically all irrelevant. Why? Because this:

    "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:29-35 NAB)

    and this

    He also said to them, "Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power." (Mark 9:1 NAB)

    failed. Jesus did not return when he stated he would. The generation that was alive at the time and everyone the heard the original speaking of the Mark verse are long, long dead (presuming both verses are accurate and not mere fiction).

    According to OT standards, this makes Jesus a false prophet. Thusly, how can there be any truth to claims of his divinity, claims about the rapture, tribulation, etc when he can't even keep his word?

    I'm sorry to have to discard much of your work here, but if you had read farther and saw the verses I meant it would have saved much effort and time (I should have posted them directly sorry) :(

    Continued....

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  53. Laura said...
    They are blind to who controls them because if this statement was true, they wouldn't spend so much time lying about the Word of God.

    1) And Harvey talks about conspiracy theories. "who controls them" if the implication of that isn't the biggest conspiracy theory in the world I dunno what is.

    2) They aren't lying in most cases. Ignorant in some, but the ones of value are telling the truth as they see it. Remember what I said about assigning motives to people?

    One of those "trying to help others" is Oprah's new geru (Tolle)who teaches we are god. Now where have we heard that one before? (Genesis 3)

    Oprah was promoting The Secret (aka The Joke). I find her ability to discern value from garbage to be as questionable as that of the general public. If one wants to be an occultist, be an occultist and learn a system that has actual value, not that feel good Mc-ocfluffism crap.

    Continued...

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  54. Laura said...
    What generationwas Jesus talking about? The generation that sees the signs He spoke of.

    The stars fell out of the sky in the 1st century? Then how is it the Earth still exists as anything more than a cinder?

    2..."There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

    This is clearly a "second coming" passage (as is the Mark version, the original, which is far more clear on the matter). Howso do you equate the transfiguration to the second coming?

    Now I ask you, is this guy trying to HELP us by quoting out of context,

    The context is sound. What I (as noted, I care not about the site author) am doing is letting the text say what it says, rather than trying to find a way to make it fit a preconceived notion. I don't blame you though - I wore those same blinders of devotion for many years, and they were certainly strong enough to lead me to gloss over such problems in the same way.

    Continued....

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  55. Laura said...
    The Wyoming was 450 feet long and was in service between 1909-1924, 15 years on the sea before it sank.

    Reference? Because it wasn't this Wyoming (Length: 198 ft 6 in, length of service 23 years, fate - sold)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wyoming_(1859)

    or any of the other three ships bearing the name USS Wyoming.

    God didn't tell Noah to go gather all the animals, He told him to bring the animals into the ark. God said "two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive." Doesn't sound like a gathering mission to me, so all that stuff where he argues the logistics of gathering is built on scriptural error.

    So? How did the critters overcome the geographical and climatological difficulties to get there? How did they overcome said difficulties to get back to their present homes from the Middle East? And why aren't there trace populations of things like bison and pronghorn stretching from here to the Middle East?

    Like we aren't suppose to see that the study was on species in the first place!

    That is dealing with a common Christian counter argument - that two of each genus, not each species where taken. Again, you assume malign motive.

    Most people? First I ever heard of it! Having set up a make believe argument that all fossil-bearing strata was created in 40 days and 40 nights, he then goes on to prove his make-believe argument is false - the longest of his posts.

    I'm not surprised you haven't heard such opinion, but it is in fact a very, very common claim among flood proponents.

    His opinion (we sure can't call it "proof" as you said) continues in this vein, totally unscientific. But the one that was the funniest is number 7:

    You're on the merry-go-round Laura - nit picking at trivial details so as to not have to deal with the meat of the argument. Said site is indeed scientific (soft science, but science nonetheless) - what makes you think it isn't? And it is indeed proof of the contrary sort simply by the fact that the questions it poses do not have any viable answers unless one assumes a truly absurd amount of miraculous events that would serve no other purpose than to keep the ark story viable.

    And truly if one assumes as many miracles as necessary, why bother with the ark at all? Why would your god have not simply instantaneously disintegrated all the people he didn't like - a far easier solution.

    And this is merely the problems inherent with the ark story itself. You didn't even touch on the huge historical issues around such an event -

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#history

    Sorry, but the sheer weight of all these unanswered "whys" disproves the flood story for anyone who doesn't have a vested interest in keeping it alive.

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  56. Nightmare said:"And thank you Harvey for letting the links through - again, more than many others would."

    That's not a problem. I think that we should know the opposing arguments and IF we have the truth it's not a threat to review contrary material. If anything it'll teach us how to better understand what we believe...at least that's what I find.

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  57. Now, we've kinda strayed off topic and I see how. I may open a biblical topics thread so that anything can be discussed and set forth...

    But, while we're here and I'm really getting back to reading, we're talkign about Noah's Ark. Since there's articles and links being passed here's a good one to get going on the flood itself:

    "One can understand why atheistic and pantheistic evolutionists have to interpret Earth history in terms of great ages and evolution, rather than Creation and the Flood. They really have no other choice, once they have decided to reject the God of Creation and His record in the Bible. However, it is very difficult to understand why men and women who do believe in God and His word do this. The Bible is explicitly clear on the global Deluge, and sound scientific evidence supports it."

    That can be found here at .Institute For Creation Research. Very good material.

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  58. Here's another that addresses the animal issue in the Ark to some extent. Ehrman, said this was a contridiction in his book and he's a quack as Hank points out. This may be helpful:
    How Many Pairs Of Animals?

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  59. I'm a warrior for Christ.

    Nightmare said "Conversation is not the same as war, sorry."

    You know better. I'm believing you when you gave your testimony here as to your salvation experience and Bible knowledge, otherwise I would spend a lot more time explaining my posts to make myself clear.

    2 Corinthians 10:1-5
    "By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you — I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away! I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world.

    "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

    "We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

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  60. Nightmare, I don't know how I can make this any clearer than the words on the page. So let's look at the scripture again:

    "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates.

    Amen, I say to you, this generation (the generation that sees ALL these things) will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. No one knows of that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
    (Matthew 24:32-37)

    I hope that's clear now.

    Nightmare said "Before we start in this, I should make something very clear - the bible means nothing to me."

    You want to argue the Bible, but the Bible means nothing to you? If it TRULY meant nothing to you, you wouldn't be here pointing at scripture and accusing Jesus of being a false prophet. You would have no interest in this conversation what-so-ever because there was no part of God in you. I know, because my father's new bride is an agnostic if you pin her down, and thinks that any talk such as this is a waste of breath.

    You either want to know the Truth, or you don't. And before you say you've heard this before, THINK for second - what is your motivation?

    I told you about my experience on that religious site, and when it came down to it, there was only ONE question to ask...Do you believe the Bible or don't you?

    You don't need an excuse to push God away with both hands. He's not going to say "Oh, well, Nightmare had good reason." No, in God's economy, you are either with Him or against Him by your own choice.

    So when you say that His Word means nothing to you, I have to ask myself - why bother? Nothing personal. If the Very Words of your Creator have no significance in your life, anything I say is just a waste of breath.

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  61. The stars fell out of the sky in the 1st century?

    Not one of the signs happened in the 1st century. I believe we will see them all in our lifetime, because I believe we ARE that genereation.

    Nightmare said "This is clearly a "second coming" passage (as is the Mark version, the original, which is far more clear on the matter). Howso do you equate the transfiguration to the second coming?"

    Mark 9 is even clearer the passage is speaking of His transfiguration. At the end of Mark 8, we have the "take up your Cross passage". Then, starting with the first verse in Mark 9:

    1 "And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”

    2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them.

    Largest Wooden Ships (Wyoming, 450 ft):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world's_largest_wooden_ships


    Hi Harvey. Sorry to stray off topic. I had it in my head I was doing it for a reason, but I was wrong.

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  62. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    That's not a problem. I think that we should know the opposing arguments and IF we have the truth it's not a threat to review contrary material. If anything it'll teach us how to better understand what we believe...at least that's what I find.

    I heartily agree, thus my continual flirtation with religious discussion (even though my heart isn't in it as much as a few years ago). If there is truth, it will come out regardless of personal opinion.

    That can be found here at .Institute For Creation Research. Very good material.

    I ponder what your definition of good is, sorry. None of this truly answers the points I second handedly brought up in such a way as to dismiss proven scientific theory.

    Furthermore, the ICR itself is a highly questionable source.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Creation_Research#Controversy_and_criticism

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  63. Laura said...
    Nightmare said "Conversation is not the same as war, sorry."

    You know better. I'm believing you when you gave your testimony here as to your salvation experience and Bible knowledge, otherwise I would spend a lot more time explaining my posts to make myself clear.


    My spologies, you are indeed correct - to the cunning warrior all things are weapons and all tactics valid. I was speaking for the mindset of my heritage, not the lessons history has taught us. Thank you for reminding me of this.

    Nightmare, I don't know how I can make this any clearer than the words on the page. So let's look at the scripture again:.....

    (Matthew 24:32-37)

    I hope that's clear now.


    Why are you totally disregarding verses 29-35 and indeed the entire context of the chapter? The verse in question -

    34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    - is clearly referring to the entire sequence of events the in the chapter til that point.

    Not one of the signs happened in the 1st century. I believe we will see them all in our lifetime, because I believe we ARE that genereation.

    That is not what the text states. If the bible is correct, he was talking to and about the generation alive at that time - the text is clear on that point, regardless how much people try to wiggle around and get out of it.

    You want to argue the Bible, but the Bible means nothing to you? If it TRULY meant nothing to you, you wouldn't be here pointing at scripture and accusing Jesus of being a false prophet.

    One can point out the flaws and contradictions in something without believing in that thing. Have not you attempted to do just that in regards to the flood material?

    You would have no interest in this conversation what-so-ever because there was no part of God in you. I know, because my father's new bride is an agnostic if you pin her down, and thinks that any talk such as this is a waste of breath.

    So...let me try to understand...I have some part of your god in me because I'm having a conversation about such? What does that say about all the atheists and scoffers you mentioned?

    You either want to know the Truth, or you don't. And before you say you've heard this before, THINK for second - what is your motivation?

    I want the truth to be known, but what you don't seem to understand is that it is my contention that neither of us know the entirety of the truth. Thusly, we are here talking about your truth, and I am pointing out the problems in such. You obviously see this as me rejecting The Truth (really only your truth), but I see this as part of the winnowing process to carve away the chaff and get to the truth.

    For the truth indeed does set one free, and freedom is a necessary component to achieving what I truly want, which is fun. In truth I find this process of ferreting out the truth via continual questioning to be fun at times as well, but it in itself is not the main goal.

    In short, you believe you have the truth. I believe neither of us has the whole truth. Thus the search goes on.

    Continued.....

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  64. Laura said:
    Do you believe the Bible or don't you?

    Do you believe in the Koran? Or the Iliad? Or the Hindu scriptures? Do you not see that asking an unbeliever if they believe in the holy text of a religion is essentially asking them if they are an unbeliever? If one believes in the bible, one if most likely already a Christian of some sort - the two go hand in hand.

    He's not going to say "Oh, well, Nightmare had good reason." No, in God's economy, you are either with Him or against Him by your own choice.

    If one is mistaken on something, how can a choice made on a mistaken premise truly be considered one's own choice? What you have said here is that your god is neither just nor loving, he only cares about obedience. That is the mark of a tyrant Laura.

    So when you say that His Word means nothing to you, I have to ask myself - why bother? Nothing personal. If the Very Words of your Creator have no significance in your life, anything I say is just a waste of breath.

    If that is how you wish to see it. But then you are merely throwing up your hands and quitting because the road is more difficult than what you thought. The path is clear - prove your claim that the bible is "Very Words of your Creator". Or not, as you please.

    "Largest Wooden Ships (Wyoming, 450 ft):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world's_largest_wooden_ships"

    My thanks for the reference. You will note however that this vessel "had to use pumps to keep its hold relatively free of water."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_(schooner)

    Which is concurrent with what is noted in the talkorigens article save for the minor error on the length of modern wooden vessels - "The longest wooden ships in modern seas are about 300 feet, and these require reinforcing with iron straps and leak so badly they must be constantly pumped."

    Regardless however it appears this discussion is done - and the original point unanswered, more's the pity. Adieu.

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  65. Nightmare said:Regardless however it appears this discussion is done - and the original point unanswered, more's the pity. Adieu

    The discussion regarding the original post may be done but it was answered. We discovered that

    1- Noone will be saved without the acceptance of Jesus
    2- Hearing the message involves more than simply being preached to. Using Paul as an example, he was "preached to" as he examined the Christian religion even though he wasn't sympathetic to it.
    3- God has "many sheep" that are his responsibility to draw.
    4- Everyone will be held accountable for their response or lack thereof to what is evident both through creation and the light of conscience.
    5- Problems such as this are highly overstated by critics assuming that because 1/3rd of the world is Christians that only 1/3rd have heard the message. When the truth is that over 80% of the world have heard the message in many cases twisting it or flat out rejecting it to meet their needs.
    6- Those who died prior to the appearance of Jesus in the world we secured in the place called Abraham's bosom" which was delivered at Jesus death and resurrection.
    7-There were those from non-Jewish nations who died in believing relationship to God and were also accepted with God.

    Those things were answered in this thread so we're not destitute for answeres they abound...

    You also said:Furthermore, the ICR itself is a highly questionable source

    I don't have too much security in Wiki references because sources aren't secure and they may not be credible. I think so far as ICR you've committed the genetic fallacy with the critique as their information is scientifically viable although they are creationist fundamentalists...That's an acceptable position expecially in light of the wealth of information they set forth on the glogbal flood, much of which is confirmed by secular scientific research. So there's no problems with our references but Wiki's are highly suspect.

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  66. So far as the preterist argument with the words "this generation" in Matt. 24, this can be reconciled any number of ways which includes that Jesus was talking about the generation of the church or the church age.

    As reference to this Psalms is full of references using the word "generation" that encompass all time and all of humanity. For example:

    Ps. 14:5 states that "God is in the generation of the righteous" this isn't confined to one time frame or set of reference. The "generation of the righteous" is all of them that call upon him for all time.

    Ps. 102:18 saying theat the word would be written for the "generation to come and for the people which shall be created shall parise the Lord." Does one confine that the word written would only be for the next set of people that were to live? That would be an absurd understanding.

    Ps. 112:2 references the seed of them that fear the Lord and delight in his commandments. It says that the "generation of the upright shall be blessed". Once again this reference isn't limiteed to a time frame of individuals. It would cover all men and those that would fear the Lord and honor him by walking uprightly also.

    My personal favorite is Ps. 24:6 ~ "This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face O Jacob. Selah"

    Once again this is a reference to me and my generation also. So ther references to "this generation" aren't problematic unless you're expecting all of the events in one time frame or period and I believe there is ample scriptural evidence to do away with that theory.

    On the other hand, Jesus describes himself as "coming on the clouds" with "great glory". That was a reference to the office of the messiah which he fulfilled and the authority that he had (Dan. 7:14) So that was fulfilled for those that were there as well all of humanity in the last day or the day of judgement.

    So there's really no problem to be uncovered or discovered in this scripture.

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  67. Nightmare said "My thanks for the reference. You will note however that this vessel "had to use pumps to keep its hold relatively free of water."

    Sigh...
    The guy asks on his site of the ark "would an ark of that size even be sea worthy?" I showed you a wooden ship of that size that was sea worthy, and instead of humbly agreeing it was possible, or in the least, ignoring it, you try to create a new argument because THAT ship took on water during it's 15 years in service.

    "he was talking to and about the generation alive at that time - the text is clear on that point, regardless how much people try to wiggle around and get out of it."

    Sounds like you did some checking and saw that it wasn't just me that can read the words on the page as referring to the generation that sees all those signs. I'm glad you know this isn't just my interpretation.

    34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."- is clearly referring to the entire sequence of events the in the chapter til that point.

    Yes, it is clearly referring to those events, ALL those events as stated by Jesus twice. Did ANY of those events happen in their lifetime? No. They were not the generation He was referring to that would see ALL those events. I don't know how I can say the same thing in any different way.

    The fact of the matter is, you don't believe the Bible, but you do believe where you perceive it to be wrong, and when it's pointed out that the only thing wrong is some non-believer's site where his interpretation of what Jesus was saying wasn't looking at the verses as a whole, you still believe it's wrong because you WANT to believe it's wrong. At least take responsibility for that!

    "But then you are merely throwing up your hands and quitting because the road is more difficult than what you thought."

    I take no responsibility for your closed heart and mind.

    When you get to Heaven, Jesus isn't going to ask you about Laura or Harvey, He's going to ask you about you.

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  68. Havery, thanks for listing all we learned from your teaching. I know I am now better equipped to give an answer to the question of those that have not heard.

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