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Wednesday, July 22, 2009

Does The Bible Teach A Literal Hell?

"The Greek word for punishment in Matt 25:46 is KOLASIS - which means corrective discipline. TIMORIA is the Greek word for vindictive punishment. I suggest you look into the original lanuages and study this subject more closely."~Savedbygrace

"FYI Harvey - Is 5:14 is about SHEOL - the grave - not Hell. There is not one single mention of any place called hell in the OT. Are you reading the KJV or NKLV? I sugget(sic) you get yourself a LITERAL - word for word Bible."..."Also, it is a LAKE of fire - not a torture chamber or prison of fire. There are no bars on a Lake to keep anyone in. This LAKE {referring To Revelation 20:13-14}is the baptism of fire that will purify and cleanse away sin and it's effects." ~ Savedbygrace

Another gentleman responded saying that teaching that hell is an everlasting place of punishment was wrong. Regarding the preaching of everlasting condemnation he said: "The latter on the other hand needs to be debunked, eviscerated, shown for the attempted psychological rape it is, and ultimately stamped out of civilized society." ~ Nightmare

What Does The Bible Say?

For the unregenerate, teaching hell is "psychological rape" and should be "stamped out of civilized society"??? WOW!

Although many would say that due to the suffering and evil that we readily observe that hell is here on earth. There is yet another place, however, prepared wherein the eternal wrath of God will be displayed upon all of them that do not submit to the Lordship of Jesus, through repenting and turning from their sins.


With so many such as the Jehovah's Witnesses who dissent over the idea of hell we should ask, what does the Bible actually teach regarding hell? Is the Christian wrong for believing in eternal or everlasting judgement or punishment? Does the teaching of hell make the love of God ineffectual? Is the teaching of hell merely obsolete control mechanism held over from ancient societies?

What Is Hell?

Hell is an Anglo-Saxon word used to translate the Hebrew word Sheol (whose root word means to ask or demand)Sheol is translated as "hell" 31 times in the Old Testament(OT) an additional 31 times as "grave" in the OT and 3 times as "pit" (see; Num. 16:30,33 & Job 17:16).

At either rate the word literally means "the abode of the dead". In the OT there was no distinction as to whether Sheol was the place of overwhelming misery or of overwhelming happiness, outside of examining the context of the verse. Hell was a place where the presence of God exists perpetually:
Ps.139:7-9 ~ "7-Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8-If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9-If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;"
There were figurative and emotional appeals to Sheol (Hell) such as describing it as describing it as a prison, as a hunter setting snares, or as overflowing waters, waves and floods.

Keeping the tradition of Jewish understanding, in the NT Jesus continued and expanded the Jewish understanding of Sheol's compartments through a teaching regarding the rich man and the beggar Lazarus (Lk. 16:19-31). In that verse both individuals are in the underworld except one is in "Abraham's bosom" and the other is in another part more directly described as Sheol(hell). The one in Abraham's bosom experiences peace and the other experiences torment, and wants relief that is unachievable. Both individuals experience the presence of God in continuing to understand that their plight is because of their direct relationship or lack thereof to God and humanity.

Sheol & Hell In The New Testament

In the New Testament there are 3 words translated as hell. Hades, Gehenna and Tartaroo. The critic asserts that these words were used to indicate "soul sleep" and possiblly even annihilationism or merely the grave. Annililationism is to total relinquishment of the consciousness of the individual. eg: no consciousness after death. Is the critic correct? Let's see:

Hades: In the earliest translation of the Hebrew bible into the Greek, known as the Septuagint, the word Sheol is always translated as hades. Orcus (Pluto)was the Greek god of the underworld who oversaw torment of the dead and disembodied spirits in hades. In the NT hades (hell) takes on the idea of both a place of punishment, torment, and also a force opposing both God and his church.(Mt. 16:18)

Gehenna: This word is a neologism (2 words combined to make a new word) Ge~valley and Henna~Hinnom (eg: Valley Of Hinnom) Hinnom was the place on the southern part of Jerusalem where idolatry and specifically child sacrifice took place(see: 2 Kings 23:10, Jer. 7:32, & 2 Chron. 28:3) Gehenna was known as the place of "burning","whining" and "lamentation". In intertestimental writings Gehenna was also associated with final judgement. Jesus taught that it was better to be maimed in this life than to go to this place. Thus Gehenna was also representative of the place of punishment and not merely sleep or the grave as some suppose.

Tartaroo: Appearing once in the NT (2 Pet. 2:4) this word was and also representative of the Greek thoughts of the subterranean world. This world in Greek thought was doleful, dark and regarded as a place for the punishment of the wicked who passed from life to death. Once again, there is no correlation to sleep associated with this word.

Another expression that we find that is equally equivalent to hell is the phrase or term "outer darkness" (Mt. 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30)This place is equally filled with torment as it is often associated with weeping and gnashing of teeth. We find a progressive understanding of hell or Sheol from the OT to the NT especially during and after the life and resurrection of Jesus. Whereas Sheol is only contextually distinguishable in the OT, when hades, Gehenna, and tartaroo are used in the NT they are more readily distinguishable as being related to punishment

What Can Be Drawn From This?
In the OT Sheol had two meanings, one being the grave and the other torment or punishment. The usage was distinguishable based upon scriptural context.

The earliest available version of the Greek translation of the OT, The Septuagint, translated Sheol as hades. Thus punishment for wickedness was included in the earliest thought of what Sheol was.

In the NT, especially during and after the life of Jesus, "Hades" took on an even greater connotation and meaning of punishment for the wicked and was further associated with perpetual judgement.

The other two words translated as hell in the NT, Gehenna and Tartaroo also carry the idea of judgement and perpetual punishment for the wicked. These places are to be avoided at all costs for the believer, even if that means being thankful for the loss of uncontrollable flesh that is subject or prone to sin.

There is no biblical expectation the righteous or the wicked will be in or remain in a state of unconsciousness. The righteous and wicked both rise to judgement. The righteous in reward and the wicked in wrath.

From the OT to the NT, wicked works are not simply skirted over or rewarded through soul sleep. The wicked pay for their actions through judgement.

Let's Look At The Rhetoric Again:

Apostasy 1- Savedbygrace declared that the Greek word "Kolasin" (punishment) as used in Mt. 25:46 was merely a corrective type of discipline. Is he right about this?

Obviously Not. 1 based on the context of the scripture it is plain to see that the assertion of a temporary light discipline is unbiblical. In context, Jesus is dealing with the reward of the "goats" for their failure to meet the needs of the people through service. In a greater context this scripture displays that the "goats" did not have relationship with the Son of Man or King (v.31 and v.34). Their punishment was not temporary but "everlasting" (Gk: aiwnion ~ Never ceasing and without end). Therefore, everlasting is the adjective that describes the punishment. The same Greek word "ainwnion" is used to describe the life that believers have in Jesus (Jn. 3:15 and 36) The blood of the New Covenant in Jesus (Heb. 13:20) and the Kingdom of Jesus (2 Pet. 1:11). Therefore one would need to demonstrate that the life, kingdom and the blood of the covenant are only temporary in nature. As we know salvation is everlasting, the Kingdom of God is everlasting and and the blood of the covenant is everlasting. Unfortunately for the critic, the use of the word "everlasting" does not deviate from the use and application of the same word in other parallel passages. So the correct interpretation is that punishment would be forever and without end.

A final note regarding this, the punishment kolasin was NOT merely a corrective disciple NET Bible says this of this particular word:
"kolasiv in classical Greek meant usually punishment which aimed at the reformation of the offender. But sometimes in later Greek, and always in the N.T., the idea of reformation seems to disappear, so that there remains simply the idea of punishment, but viewed in relation to the punished"
Apostasy 2- "Is 5:14 is about SHEOL - the grave - not Hell. There is not one single mention of any place called hell in the OT." What are we to make of this critique?

Absolutely NOTHING! The facts are plain and simple and context is the telling part of the scripture:
Isa. 5:10-17 ~ "10-Yea, ten acres of vineyard shall yield one bath, and the seed of an homer shall yield an ephah. 11-Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them! 12-And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands. 13-Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. 14-Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. 15-And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled: 16-But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness. 17-Then shall the lambs feed after their manner, and the waste places of the fat ones shall strangers eat."
This particular scripture dealt with the six fold woes pronounced upon Judah for it's sins. This scripture points out unjust judgements by landowners and a love of sin rather than fairness, equity and righteousness. This was why hell was enlarged. As verse 15 says that mean man, and lofty (prideful) would be punished and brought down. There is not a hint contextually that this is a mere waiving of the hand or that the Bosom of Abraham would be extended as opposed to the lower part of Sheol where punishment existed.

Apostasy 3~ "Also, it is a LAKE of fire - not a torture chamber or prison of fire. There are no bars on a Lake to keep anyone in. This LAKE {referring to Revelation 20:13-14}is the baptism of fire that will purify and cleanse away sin and it's effects." Are any of these statements accurate?

Not even in dreamland! Here's the scripture:
Revelation 20:11-15 ~ "11-And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12-And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13-And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14-And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15-And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
In this passage there was judgement (Gk: Krino ~ passing of a Kingly edict or decree) this was done upon an individual according to their works. Ultimately, since this was the final judgement, death and hell(Sheol)[The only region left in the last day would be the place of torment as Abraham's bosom ascended when Jesus "led captivity captive"- Eph. 4:8] Were cast into the "lake of fire" and that lake of fire was the "second death".

This fire was not a cleaning of the effects of sin. It was a punishment because of sin. In addition death would have no control over God's people or permanence of effect.(1 Cor. 15:55-56) This notion is totally absurd.

Finally: Should teaching of hell be stamped out of civilized society? Is hell merely a control mechanism?

God would be derelict in not exposing the penalty of sin. Exposing the nature of hell does not condemn one to go to hell. In other words, one can choose not to go by choosing life in Jesus who is able to save the soul from hell:
Mt. 10:28 ~ "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Gehenna eg: place of destruction)
Example, on a map there are many different directions that one could go. If you are going to New Mexico why should you be offended just because the map shows how to get to San Antonio? It's ridiculous to say that just because hell is described in the bible as a literal, physical place in which the wrath of God will occur that the message somehow should be overlooked or minimized.

Is this a way to keep people in line or order? If it is it hasn't worked because sin has abounded more now than almost ever before in history. Men love their sin but yet the true church preaches against it. So, in short, that's yet another weak and cop-out argument.

Hell, like heaven is real, is not simply soul sleep, and is a literal and physical destination that encompasses mind and individual reality

For sure, it's one place I won't want to go, even IF you tell me to-LOL!

Blessed!

172 comments:

  1. The bible is clear. There is a literal hell. Whether or not it has a literal fire is a matter of interpretation. Fire in scripture is most often used to indicate the judgement of GOD.

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  2. I believe the Bible teaches that hell was created for Satan and his demons. Satan and his demons will be tormented forever and ever. Human beings are thrown into to the fire of eternal punishment where their worm never dies and the fire will burn forever and ever without being quenched but they (human beings) will eventually be annihilated.



    Matthew 10:28

    Do not fear them who can kill the body and not the soul. Rather fear Him who can destroy both the soul and body in hell.



    Revelation 20:13-14

    Death and hades gave up the dead who were in them and they were judged each one of them......Death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.




    2 Peter 2:5-9

    If by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.



    Jude 7

    just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.



    Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly. They will be punished with eternal fire and go extinct.

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  3. Cole,

    Thanks for coming over to comment and I know some of your opinions from DC.

    I understand what you're saying but I disagree in the temporary nature of the punishment. That may sound closed minded but as I noted in the article the same word "eternal" is used to describe God's kingdom, the power of the blood of Jesus and the life that believers have once they've trusted him.

    The only way to overcome that would be to prove that believers "eternal" life is only temporary or that the Kingdom of god and Blood of Jesus only have a "temporary" effect. I don't see where you can have a limited salvation, Kingdom of God or effect of the Blood of Jesus.

    I don't see anywhere where the people would be annihilated. The contrast to Sodom and Gomorrah is good I believe to display the earthly judgement, but the concept of hell as it developed throughout the bible covers more of an eternal or "next life" focus.

    Thanks.

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  4. Harvey,

    My views are changing. I'm comming back to Theism.

    You missed what I said above. Go back and re-read what I said.

    I believe the Bible teaches that hell was created for Satan and his demons. Satan and his demons will be tormented forever and ever. Human beings are thrown into to the fire of eternal punishment where their worm never dies and the fire will burn forever and ever without being quenched but they (human beings) will eventually be annihilated.

    Re-read those scriptures that I gave you.

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  5. Cole,

    I'm GLAD to hear that you're coming back to theism. What are your thoughts regarding that? I would just like to know what is happening to make you reconsider?

    So far as the annihilation issue, I'm sorry my friend I just don't see it, BUT I'm open to someone making an argument, so I won't shut anyoone down but I just don't gather that from what's been presented and from my research.

    Maybe I should do a more indepth on that issue iin particular.

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  6. Saint James,

    What do you think my friend about the "eternal" nature of hell? Does it lead to annihilationism or is it permanent?

    I'd like to se some others chime in on that issue also.

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  7. The fact that I don't have a foundation for the moral law and the fact that Big Bang Cosmology has been established beyond reasonable doubt. M.I.T. professor of physics, Alan Guth, is on record stating that those who don't hold to the Big Bang are now considered by the scientic community to be crackpots. I belive the universe was created by a personal being. I have also found a solution to the problem of evil and suffering that satisfies me.

    Not only that but I'm starting to feel God's presence again.

    I have no hope without it.

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  8. Harvey,

    I belive the Bible teaches that hell is eternal. Satan and his demons will be tormented forever and ever. Human beings are cast into the fire of eternal punishment but they will be annihilated. I could be wrong though.

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  9. Thanks for sharing Cole.

    It sounds exciting what's happening in your life and I understand your reservatuions and I think (hope) I would reason things through in a similar manner if I were in your position. I know what you mentioned is highly problematic just looking at it also.

    I could be wrong also, that's why I'm asking for other's input on that issue. We both gree that angels (demons) will be there eternally.

    Thanks though and I blessed by what you've shared.

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  10. Praise the LORD!

    The custom I have learned is when a minister(i.e. Pastor Burnett) has spoken the word in a no nonsense, easy to understand for the unlearned, the learned, sinner or saint, you don't come behind that preacher and preach behind them.

    Well done Pastor Burnett, Well done. This commentary is what the Bible calls "You Cannot gainsay it!" You're(all of us) either going to receive it or reject it. No middle ground! Well done, thou good and faithful servant. Amen.

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  11. Enochwalked,

    Thank you my friend for your encouragements. What do you believe the scripture says about the eternality of hell for humans?

    Thanks for your input.

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  12. I like what Cole said, especially the part about his changing views back toward Theism. I'll definently be looking further into his ideas on this matter.

    The one thing I notice about the the story of the rich man and Lazarus the Pastor spoke of is this: although the rich man had a few requests and complaints, he never complained about how he didn't deserve to be there? Can some one explain the contrast to that, and those who Christ said "depart from me I never knew you. If that's not to far off topic?

    Dueces, feeno

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  13. Harvey said:
    "For the unregenerate teaching hell is "psychological rape" and should be "stamped out of civilized society"??? WOW!"

    Actually I was referring more broadly to the entirety of the control doctrines and guilt reinforcing authoritarian structure of Christianity as a whole. Hell, however conceived, is merely one part of said doctrinal structure. Hence my confusion at your asking me over here XD

    And to clarify, in Christian terms I am an apostate. Not entirely certain if that would count as "unregenerate".

    "the eternal wrath of God will be displayed upon all of them that do not submit to the Lordship of Jesus"

    This is why I refer to such as psychological rape. Basically, the doctrine is "love Jesus or he'll torture you forever". If that is not similar in concept to rape I don't know what is.

    "Orcus (Pluto)was the Greek god of the underworld who oversaw torment of the dead and disembodied spirits in hades."

    Hades is both the name of the Greek god of death/the dead and the realm of the dead. Pluto/Orcus is the Roman version of the Greek god. And Tartarus (not "Tartaroo") is a portion of Hades (the realm) in some stories, a deeper realm, always hell-like, in others. Just clarifying details, although given the timing involved it is clear that the Greek concepts of Hades/Tartarus were either conflated to the existing underworld concept of Sheol or flat out stolen (which one is true is likely indeterminable).

    "God would be derelict in not exposing the penalty of sin."

    Even accepting the premises of the Christian religion, the punishment for a crime should be equivalent to the severity of the crime itself. This is a matter of simple justice. Punishing someone more severely than the crime they committed is unjust. Anyone could agree on this I think. The simple fact remains then, if any sin can be forgiven merely by accepting Jesus, then the only sin that exists is the one of not accepting Jesus. The doctrine of atonement makes all other sins irrelevant. Thusly, hell becomes a stick to enforce the acceptance of the Christian religion in those who believe the message. Acceptance of the Christian religion (and it's innate authoritarian structure) leads to acceptance of the leadership of said religion as authority figures. In this way it is a control structure.

    "Is this a way to keep people in line or order? If it is it hasn't worked because sin has abounded more now than almost ever before in history. Men love their sin but yet the true church preaches against it. So, in short, that's yet another weak and cop-out argument."

    Hardly. What you refer to as an abundance of sin is the result of the splintering and weakening of the church's political and thus intellectual/psychological power since it's height in the Dark Ages/late Middle Ages. This is, ironically, a symptom of the Protestant Reformation, which lead the Renaissance and the subsequent decline of the church's influence. In short, the control structure started to fall apart due to internal conflict (which IMO is inevitable in Christianity) and lead to the widespread questioning of the premises said structure is based on. Hardly a "weak cop-out" when one is aware of the history of the matter it seems.

    "Hell, like heaven is real"

    This statement is erroneous in the sense that it is a statement of faith, not fact. If it were fact, it would be provable. It is not, therefore if one is to be honest one must concede that we do not know if either realm is real or not. This then is the final key to my original statement. If such realms could be proven to be real, you might then be right Harvey. But until then the dishonest fact claims that such are in fact real (and thus action as if they are is necessary) is simply a means to manipulate people. This is why IMO your version of Christianity needs to be thoroughly debunked and stamped out.

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  14. Nightmare,

    Actually I was referring more broadly to the entirety of the control doctrines and guilt reinforcing authoritarian structure of Christianity as a whole.

    The whole idea is that Christianity has no LOCK on ideas or concepts that set forth penalties to certain behaviors. You're not rallying against the state for saying that you'll go to jail and may be executed for murder are you? No. You accept the prescribed penalty as a just result of your actions. So this is not about some "grand control" technique, it's a rational setting forth of the penalty for outlined and prescribed behavior.

    You said:"This is why I refer to such as psychological rape. Basically, the doctrine is "love Jesus or he'll torture you forever". If that is not similar in concept to rape I don't know what is"

    WRONG again, the rapist never asks their victim to love them. The rapist simply takes what does not belong to them. Praise BELONGS to God, our lives and very existence BELONGS to him also. He asks that we simply give him what is his. So your parrallel is totally unfounded and of base. Thanks for clarifying so that all can see how unfounded it is.

    You said:"Even accepting the premises of the Christian religion, the punishment for a crime should be equivalent to the severity of the crime itself. This is a matter of simple justice. Punishing someone more severely than the crime they committed is unjust."

    Agreed that the punishment is proportionate to the crime. God lays that out in Deuteronomy 25:1-4, however what is missed is that the sin and unbelief are more highly problematic than is given credit. It is unbelief that creates the ultimate seperation from God so much and so until a nation was "broken off" because of it (Rom. 11:20) and in another example of the Exodus into the promised land the people couldn't enter because of unbelief (Heb. 3;19 & 4:6) So the punishment is proportionate to the crime because you do all the other sins that you do BECAUSE you don't believe. Sin is the symptom, but unbelief is the root cause.

    Regarding me saying that hell is an inadequate "control mechanism" you said:"Hardly. What you refer to as an abundance of sin is the result of the splintering and weakening of the church's political and thus intellectual/psychological power since it's height in the Dark Ages/late Middle Ages."

    Well let's see IF I got, this right...many of the reformers actually moved AGAINST the church's will and anathematizations to do what they did...Isn't that historical? Many of the church leaders such as Luther and others actually were condemned to hell, by church leaders for starting supposed insurrections and going against the church...Is that not history? Many of these leaders CONTINUED against being branded heretics, because GOD was the center of their their desires...not politics...Like I said you're analysis is a cop-out argument, a conspiracy theory rooted in fiction like most atheist arguments of church history are.

    See pt. 2

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  15. Nightmare, Pt. 2

    Regarding my saying that hee is real like heaven you said:"This statement is erroneous in the sense that it is a statement of faith, not fact."

    It may be a statement of faith but it's no less factual than any other statemnt. Why? Because the one that has promised the reality of such has made the claim of such celarly, demonstrated his ability to make good on his claims by displaying his authority over sickness, disease and even death through the immutable fact of the resurrection, and has further made the promise that those who believe (back to what I said earlier) would receive or be a part of his promise.

    If GM says that they were going to make a car in 2010 you would believe it based on the fact that they make cars and have done so before, so for them NOT to make a car would be a surprise and not meet the expectations of their historical performance right?

    GOd doesn't deal in cars but he has made claims and those claims have been realized, it is reasonable to assumne that he will make good on future claims. The only difference in the faith that I exercise in God and the faith you exercise in natural things is that mine is an intangeable whereas you only have faith in the tangeable. So whether you believe it or not you exercise faith even though many naturalistic statements or claims are in no wise true.

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  16. In response to "Nightmare," you said:

    "Punishing someone more severely than the crime they committed is unjust. Anyone could agree on this I think. The simple fact remains then, if any sin can be forgiven merely by accepting Jesus, then the only sin that exists is the one of not accepting Jesus."

    Your comment makes since to the mortal mind as we think in our own human concept of "fairness." Coming from a "human" perspective I understand your point. However; when one becomes a Christian we begin to think according to God's word. In his word even our thoughts can bring on eternal judgement. For instance, the bible says that if a "man even looks at a woman with lust in his eyes he hath committed adultery;" things that we dwell on in our minds are punishable to God because he wants us to be pure inside and out.

    In a sense, it is not "fair" to compare human justice with God's justice. As God is the creature of all things. Sins are deeper than what people see on the outside. People sin with their hearts as well. To us, if someone thinks about killing someone and another person kills someone we would say that the person who killed someone deserves punishment, while the person who just thought about it does not. In God's eyes both are guilty of murder. There are spiritual consequences to the things we let dwell in our hearts.

    May God Bless you,

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  17. Some consider eternal torment to be a punishment that doesn't fit the crime. The argument that the punishment is unfair wrongly assumes that we know the extent of the evil done when sinners rebel against God. David Kingdon observes that “sin against the Creator is heinous to a degree utterly beyond our sin-warped imaginations’ (ability) to conceive of . . . . Who would have the temerity to suggest to God what the punishment . . . should be?” He also responds to this objection by suggesting that those in hell may go on sinning and receiving punishment for their sin, but never repenting, and notes that Revelation 22:11 points in this direction : “Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy”.

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  18. Feeno,

    You asked:"although the rich man had a few requests and complaints, he never complained about how he didn't deserve to be there? Can some one explain the contrast to that, and those who Christ said "depart from me I never knew you. If that's not to far off topic?"

    The reason I said fantastic is because there is so much in that observation and question.

    Here's my take on at least one part of this; Why the man didn't complain? Because his sins and his actions were fully revealed to him in eternity. Paul said:

    1 Cor. 13:12~"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as I am known"

    Now I know the hrmeneutic behind this verse has been Num 12:8 when Moses was the one with whom God chose to speak face to face, referencing how we will speak to Jesus BUT what if in a greater context this refers to the revelation and understanding gained in eternity and specifically in the presence of the Lord in eternity.

    In other words, when judgement takes place will we not know the judgement against us? or will the judgement catch us by surprise?

    I believe that we shall 'know' this reward or punishment. There won't be a need for a defense team called together and witnesses will already be present.

    I believe that's why the "rich man" didn't levy that complaint and was only interested in telling his family not to do what he did to come where he was.

    I point out one scripture but I believe that principle can be borne out in other scriptures as well.

    Let me know what you think.

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  19. Feeno,

    On the other hand the "I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity"(Mt. 7:23)was said not in response to those who said they lived for him, but in response to thiose who said they did their works "in his name".

    I believe these are morally destitute people, who claimed to be saved. There are a lot of individuals that do things "claiming" salvation but who do not give themselves to Christ.

    There works are suspect as they prophesied, cast out devils and did miracles (wonderful works) but there are 2 things here...1- THEY are the one's claiming to have done the works, Jesus does not agree that they did anything and 2-it seems they yet continued to practice their immorality and ungodliness in the process.

    I'll revert back to the previous comment to you; I believe they will know their deficiency even IF they try to use their works to gain favor. I believe that's certainly a possibility.

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  20. DSHB

    Thanks, that makes sense, We'll know so much more as the scales fall off our eyes. It's actually gonna be unbelievable what we will know. See you there, feeno

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  21. Harvey said:
    The whole idea is that Christianity has no LOCK on ideas or concepts that set forth penalties to certain behaviors.....So this is not about some "grand control" technique, it's a rational setting forth of the penalty for outlined and prescribed behavior.

    You fail to differentiate between universal crimes (murder etc) and thought crimes (having "no other gods before me", not making idols, etc). The latter are the control structures I am referring to. The former are simply common sense for any group dependent organism.

    WRONG again, the rapist never asks their victim to love them. The rapist simply takes what does not belong to them.

    The metaphor is correct. Whether we are talking about sex or love it is equally wrong to use force to gain them from another. And some rapists do indeed try to force their victims to love them.

    Praise BELONGS to God, our lives and very existence BELONGS to him also.

    No. There is so much wrong - morally and factually - with this statement that I can't even begin to get into it without writing a book. Suffice to say, this is another faith claim, not in any way a fact. And if it were a fact it would be monstrous in ways that I'm sure you cannot comprehend (since you made the statement to begin with).

    however what is missed is that the sin and unbelief are more highly problematic than is given credit

    I'm glad to see we are on the same page in that we agree the punishment shouldn't be more severe than the crime. In regards to the quote above however, I must ask this: why are thought crimes (unbelief, having different gods) worthy of eternal torture? Whom are said "crimes" hurting? Certainly not your god (as you conceive him) - it would be ridiculous for an omnipotent eternal being to be hurt by the thoughts of a mere mortal. Especially if he actually created us. That would be like me being hurt by the thoughts of one of my fictional characters (I write fiction as a past time).

    So the punishment is proportionate to the crime because you do all the other sins that you do BECAUSE you don't believe. Sin is the symptom, but unbelief is the root cause.

    It does not follow that one automatically commits other sins if one does not believe. An atheist friend of mine who died recently committed no other "sin" to my knowledge other than disbelief. He was actually the most kind, patient, and generous man I have ever met, and I would say in action he was more saintly than any Christian I have ever met. Therefore, it would seem your premise for unbelief being worthy of eternal torture is fundamentally flawed.

    To be continued...

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  22. Continued from above

    Well let's see IF I got, this right..."

    While the history you cited is sound it seems you failed to follow the logic of my argument there. Please re-read it and keep in mind that I am claiming, simply, that the infighting in the church opened the door for questioning and thus disbelief. This is what weakened the value of hell as a control belief.

    Because the one that has promised the reality of such has made the claim of such celarly, demonstrated his ability to make good on his claims by displaying his authority over sickness, disease and even death through the immutable fact of the resurrection

    I disagree. You are stating heaven and hell are real because of the above when in truth the above are also statements of faith, not fact. You have faith in the bible and take its accounts at face value, as I once did. The problem is, the biblical accounts you are citing are unverifiable as fact, and are much more probably fiction. After all, anyone can write a story or four containing all those elements, and we have precisely zero evidence to back up any of the claimed miracles of the gospels.

    If GM says that they were going to make a car in 2010 you would believe it based on the fact that they make cars and have done so before, so for them NOT to make a car would be a surprise and not meet the expectations of their historical performance right?

    (Insert dark economic humor here) Actually, I wouldn't hold my breath in regard to such a claim by GM these days ;)

    he has made claims and those claims have been realized

    Yes, the bible does make claims. And where they are testable they have proven false. I'll provide specific examples if you wish, but it will take time to dig up the verses I'm referring to. It has been over a decade since I read any of the material after all.

    whereas you only have faith in the tangeable

    Preacher know thine audience ;) As I stated on DC, I am not an atheist. The best term to describe me would be "spiritual anarchist", but for simplicity's sake you can think of me as an occultist and a pagan. Keep in mind though that while I acknowledge the intangible my faith in such is directly related to it's ability to produce tangible results. This is why your god no longer holds any sway with me.

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  23. Ashley McClain said...
    However; when one becomes a Christian we begin to think according to God's word."

    I know. I've been there, done that as the saying goes. I have found such a perspective to be phenomenally self-negating. Indeed, it was only after I developed some sense of self-worth that I came to understand the relationship you describe as abusive and acknowledge what experience was teaching me - that the promises of the bible are false. Before then I accepted what you and Anonymous state, that any "sin" was worthy of eternal torture - indeed that mere existence was worthy of such.

    In closing though, I don't know who David Kingdon is but in answer to his rhetorical question "Who would have the temerity to suggest to God what the punishment . . . should be?" I would say the proper answer is "I would" as indeed any person with any moral fiber and courage should.

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  24. As a bystander listening in, I see that Nightmare has a big sin, little sin philosophy.

    Ashley already pointed out the teaching of Jesus about looking upon a woman with lust as being the same thing as committing adultery. Crazy, right? No, that's God telling us He is Holy and we are not.

    I don't know about you, but I can't get through a day without sinning. It's gonna happen, and pretty much every day for me. But thanks to Jesus, there is no condemnation. Sin and punishment isn't the focus of my life - HE is.

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  25. Oh, sorry Nightmare. I missed your post above mine.

    You said "Indeed, it was only after I developed some sense of self-worth that I came to understand the relationship you describe as abusive and acknowledge what experience was teaching me - that the promises of the bible are false."

    I can't imagine how allowing the love of God to come into your heart could ever be considered abusive. Are you sure you're talking about God, or is it religion? And if you don't mind me asking, was there a particular promise you found to be false?

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  26. Laura said...
    As a bystander listening in, I see that Nightmare has a big sin, little sin philosophy.

    In essence yes I guess. I prefer the term practical. In my frame of reference "little sins" aren't a problem at all, but then the dividing line is a matter of debate.

    No, that's God telling us He is Holy and we are not.

    Presuming Christianity is true for a moment, who sets the standard of what is holy then? God does. Therefore, it is plainly ridiculous for him to equate lust (a thought crime, and in reality a natural instinct he instilled in us) with adultery (an actual action that can cause great harm, emotional and sometimes otherwise). Hence my post above.

    But thanks to Jesus, there is no condemnation.

    When I was a xian, I suffered a great deal in terms of guilt over every action, every thought even that could even remotely be interpreted as sin. I cannot count the hours I spent in prayer begging for forgive over the slightest of things (I was of the belief that one can loose one's salvation). From what I have heard this is not at all uncommon. Rather far from no condemnation IMO.

    Sin and punishment isn't the focus of my life - HE is.

    Sin and punishment are so central to Christianity belief one must deal with those topics if one is honest with oneself. Such topics have repercussions not just on one's own life, but on the lives of others.

    Oh, sorry Nightmare. I missed your post above mine.

    No prob.

    I can't imagine how allowing the love of God to come into your heart could ever be considered abusive.

    Quite simply because said "love" is not free. There are a great many strings attached, and those are what make said relationship abusive. In a healthy relationship there is both give and take, you give to your partner but receive as well. This was more the case of all take and no give on "his" part.

    Are you sure you're talking about God, or is it religion?

    Honestly? No. I cannot be 100% certain I was dealing with your god. I can say this however: it was not "religion" as you mean it. I sincerely sought him, gave my heart and life to him, loved him with every fiber of my being. I believed the holy spirit convicted me of sin, I believed I received some measure of guidance and direction from him (namely in terms of my calling in life). Comparing notes and recollections with others, I did and felt everything that the vast majority of Christians do and feel as a relationship with their god. And it lasted right up until I needed him most. Then nothing.

    And if you don't mind me asking, was there a particular promise you found to be false?

    Well, the short version would be Matthew 21:21-22, John 15:7 (and passages similar to these two), and Ephesians 6:10-17. Plus there is one about the father providing for his children and not giving them stones when they ask for fish (can't remember the chapter and verse, sorry).

    ReplyDelete
  27. You said: “You fail to differentiate between universal crimes (murder etc) and thought crimes (having "no other gods before me", not making idols, etc). The latter are the control structures I am referring to.” and “why are thought crimes (unbelief, having different gods) worthy of eternal torture? Whom are said "crimes" hurting? Certainly not your god (as you conceive him) - it would be ridiculous for an omnipotent eternal being to be hurt by the thoughts of a mere mortal.” and “An atheist friend of mine who died recently committed no other "sin" to my knowledge other than disbelief. He was actually the most kind, patient, and generous man I have ever met, and I would say in action he was more saintly than any Christian I have ever met.”

    I now understand you better. I believe that your position would entail that man is without anything called sin. That sin is a myth and another control mechanism (excuse me for putting words in your mouth-let me know if I’m wrong) and based on one’s actions. As you know in the Christian worldview we are sinners by nature. Before any acts are committed we understand that sin is intertwined within our nature. If it be that God is truly omniscient, sin would be revealed to him the same as us looking at physical objects that we see everyday. Except in the case of God, there would be a total transparency. It is from that level of transparency that God views all people, speaks righteously and judges. If we are talking about and omniscient God he has no other choice but to do it that way. So what you’re saying is that (although you don’t believe anyway) is that God should only be superficial in his judgements…but would that not make God hypocritical to look on the surface but allow the hear to be indistinguished? The mystery is this, God hasn’t dealt with us according to our sins Ps. 103:10, if he had and allowed us to be born just to punish us as you suggest then, we’d all have a problem but that’s not the case. We do not worship idols because they are nothing but our creation, they offer no promise and have no ability. Finally, since you and I only know the fallen state of sin we cannot fathom how far to the left (so to speak) that sin has sent us. That’s the problem, naturalism has no way to account for this.

    You said: “I am claiming, simply, that the infighting in the church opened the door for questioning and thus disbelief. This is what weakened the value of hell as a control belief.”

    I understand what you are saying, however I hold that your argument is fallacious for at least 2 reasons. 1- The law of man is fought over everyday. The same rules, regulations and codes that we’ve had for years in many instances and all though there is infighting the influence of the law or it’s purpose does not fall because there is disagreement. So conflict does not make anything weaker, if something is what it is it will remain to be what it is under even the greatest of conflicts and disputes and to doubt it because there is a dispute over it is highly unreasonable. And 2- people are unbelievers because they “loved darkness rather than light” (Jn. 3:19) The reason that the bible is minimized by the unbeliever is because of the desire and love of sin to whatever degree…your sin may not be my sin but when we hold on to it, it is sin just as deadly.

    see part 2

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  28. Nightmare,

    You said: “After all, anyone can write a story or four containing all those elements, and we have precisely zero evidence to back up any of the claimed miracles of the gospels.”

    First, without arguing the whole of Christianity as most atheists (and even though you are a spiritist, I consider you an atheist)like to do, I will address the fact that there is plenty of evidence both for God, his creation, Jesus life and miracles and the resurrection account. All of the evidence of such IS NOT only contained within scriptures and is confirmed by secular, critical and in many cases even hostile sources, verifying the conditions and actions of Christianity. Witness are abundant, testimony is unparalleled early and the bible continues to pass all criterion of historical critical method. Secondly even Anti-Christ Advocate extraordinarre , Richard Dawkins begins his premise in his book "The Blind Watchmaker" (if memory serves me correct) that molecular biology was the study of things that APPEAR to have a creative intelligence behind them. In other words his whole work is about finding ways to disprove what is evident even at a molecular biological level...so there is plenty of evidence for all that I’ve named ONLY that you want to throw it all out and bury your head in the sand as if it doesn’t count…That’s not scientific, that’s not exploratory and that’s not how the TRUTH is found.

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  29. Nightmare,

    In response to Laura about your unbelief you rendered the following:

    Well, the short version would be Matthew 21:21-22, John 15:7 (and passages similar to these two), and Ephesians 6:10-17. Plus there is one about the father providing for his children and not giving them stones when they ask for fish

    Saying that it was for scriptures such as these that you did not believe. Those scriptures are dealing with faith, miracles, and God's promise to answer and strengthen when we call. Now you as a literalist see that when you ask then it should be done and if you have faith, then you should see the results etc.

    Obviously, there have been occasions when you've either witnessed or experienced this to not be true. So what do we do with the scripture? We place it on a level with any other fictitious book...(Once again that's me putting words in your mouth and let me know if I'm wrong)

    What we can say is, that many of us including myself have experienced the same or similar. What I can say about that is that I have NEVER been disapointed wit the ultimate outcome in each situation. Example, i didn't want my mother in law to die. She was 80 plus years old. What if I could keep her alive? Was that the best thing for me or for God? I had a bill that I couldn't pay. I prayed and the mney didn't materialize. What I had to do was confront the creditor and work out a plan and it went just fine. What happened? Did God not answer my prayer? Or did God merely allow me to grow in a much better way than if it had happened any other way...The latter is true.

    What I'm saying is that I have never been utterlly ashamed, however I can't get all the candy I want at times...I personally believe this is where FAITH comes in my friend...All the other stuff in my opinion is empirical and there are leves of evidence but to enter into TRUST is a completely different thing.

    Thanks for sharing that with us and I'm sure there are others who have experienced the same but look, I and countless others are still here and made better by every adversity...so don't take that as a condemnation because none is intended, take is as an encouragement to consider trying this again.

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  30. Hi Harvey,

    I just now saw your post and the link. Sorry for the delay.

    Jesus NEVER spoke about HELL - not one single time! He spoke about GEHENNA! Gehenna was a garbage dump where they threw the bodies of those who had been stoned, hanged, crucified etc. Jesus was warning of the death penalty and a nasty burial place where their worm does not die and the fire is not put out. People were often stoned back in those days for various offenses. ALL of the Gehenna warnings are earthly warnings, not about ant eternal torment in the afterlife. There is never any mention of Satan being in Gehenna. There is no mention of the gospel as the way of escaping Gehenna!

    The rich man in Luke is is in HADES - not Gehenna. Why do you suppose that is? The Bible says that the church will prevail against the gates of Hades! So all will be saved out of Hades. Hades and death are both cast into the Lake of Fire in Revelation. So goodbye Hades!

    In Matt 25:46 we have the expression "eternal punishment". The Greek is KOLASIS AIONIOS. Kolasis is corrective discipline. It is eternal in it's results. Please compare the expression "eternal redemption" in Hebrews. Does that mean that Jesus will keep dying on the cross over and over again for all eternity? Of course not! The eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels - NOT for people! So people cannot stay there because it was never prepared for them. Also, there is no mention of the gospel in Matt 25 parable of the sheep and the goats! That judgement is based soley on good works done the "these my brethren". Not one word about accepting Christ, being born again, filled with the Spirit, being sons and daughters etc etc.

    Eternal destruction will be of the carnal man that the spirit may be saved. Everyone will be restored to the Father through the power of the cross. The entire creation will be set free from it's bondage to corruption - Rom 8:21.

    Read these promises!

    1 Tim 4:10 - "God who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially those who believe"!!!! Not "ONLY" those who believe!!!!

    1 John 2:2 confirms - He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

    Romans 5:18 says - "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there RESULTED justification of life to all men."

    Romans 11:32 - "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

    2 Corinthians 5:19 - "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them."

    Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men."

    John 1:29 - "Behold the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the world"!

    The sin issue, including the sin of rejecting Christ, was TAKEN AWAY at the cross! Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"!

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  31. Harvey,

    God said to Adam and Eve that they would surely DIE. Not one mention of Hell to Adam and Eve. Paul said the wages of sin is DEATH - not Hell. In fact the apostle Paul NEVERS mentions any place called Hell! NOT ONCE! Why do you suppose that is? Don't the Gentiles need to know about thisterrible place so they can warn unsaved loved ones?

    Jesus paid the DEATH penalty for our sins, He did not go to Hell for eternity for our sins! Also, show me just one warning about Hell where the Gospel is presesnted as the way of escaping Hell. Make sure the verse says HELL! Show me just one single warning about Hell that speaks of rejecting Christ as Savior! Just one!

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  32. Savedbygrace,

    You are so confused it's almost unbelieveable...was there a church leader who helped you get this jacked up or did you get this on your own... If you had church leadership that assisted in your condition, you ought to sue them for malpractice and let's work to get them kicked out of the pulpit...Until then I'll simply put down your lies and assertions:

    You said: “Jesus NEVER spoke about HELL - not one single time! He spoke about GEHENNA! Gehenna was a garbage dump where they threw the bodies of those who had been stoned, hanged, crucified etc.”

    Since you obviously either don’t care for facts or can’t read let me spell it our for you…Gehenna was the word translated into HELL because of what Gehenna represented. Gehenna represented death, pain and torment. This was a Jewish syloqy similar to how we use language today…We call the home teams home field or stadium their “house”. The home team says this is “my house” this is what was done with Gehenna. It was not a less place of pain or simply sleep. Address the issues don’t simply impose what you believe or want to believe your assertions are unfounded.

    You said: “Jesus was warning of the death penalty and a nasty burial place where their worm does not die and the fire is not put out.”

    Sherlock, let me share this with you…that place where the worm dies not was HELL not the grave. In the grave worms die…get it die…this was figurative speech for a literal and physical HELL.

    You said: “There is never any mention of Satan being in Gehenna. There is no mention of the gospel as the way of escaping Gehenna!”

    Not essential to the point as the better and more specific word to use for where satan would end up was sheol. Either way it was HELL and your insitence that one needs to see satan described as being in both places is absurd.

    You said: “The rich man in Luke is is in HADES - not Gehenna. Why do you suppose that is?”

    Well only maybe because that what it SAYS. The rich man was in Sheol.

    You said: “The Bible says that the church will prevail against the gates of Hades! So all will be saved out of Hades. Hades and death are both cast into the Lake of Fire in Revelation. So goodbye Hades!

    You’re off your rocker and have no scriptural support for your lame argument…well, I guess that’s because there is none for it.

    You said: “In Matt 25:46 we have the expression "eternal punishment". The Greek is KOLASIS AIONIOS. Kolasis is corrective discipline. It is eternal in it's results.”

    You are a good liar but you are totally unconvincing, not only was the punishment everlasting as proved by the construction but the disciple or destruction 9a meaning that you don’t want to accredit to the word) was also…Once your attempts to obfuscate this point are smoked out and you’re exposed for the scriptural illiterate that you are. I can’t stand scriptural liars, and there’s a difference between one making a mistakes and one who lies and you my friend are a liar about scripture.

    You said: “Please compare the expression "eternal redemption" in Hebrews. Does that mean that Jesus will keep dying on the cross over and over again for all eternity? Of course not!”

    No it means just what I imply that his death and eternal redemption will last FOREVER...get it apostate brethern…FOREVER! That’s the whole point and you think you’ve rendered something that helps your point...??? Confusion is, confusion does...Go figure

    See pt. 2

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  33. Savedbygrace,

    You said: “The eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels - NOT for people! So people cannot stay there because it was never prepared for them.”

    Only a literist that misses the whole point of the scripture thinks that...Yes, it was prepared for the devil, but men have chosen to go there too... and prove their desire by their unbelief and verify such with their actions...get it???

    You said: “Also, there is no mention of the gospel in Matt 25 parable of the sheep and the goats! That judgement is based soley on good works done the "these my brethren". Not one word about accepting Christ, being born again, filled with the Spirit, being sons and daughters etc.”

    Yes a truly difficult scripture and one that you are obviously not equipped to deal with, I have a treatment on this in an upcoming post but I’ll tell you that you not even close to the real point of that scripture…so sit tight I’ll give you more to debate about comin’ right up.

    You said: “Eternal destruction will be of the carnal man that the spirit may be saved. Everyone will be restored to the Father through the power of the cross.”

    Thus your hand at being a universal inclusionist is revealed...I’m gonna look that up even more because you conclude that all will be saved and most evangelicals only concluded the elect will be saved...so your beyond the wall for sure...So far as your scriptural references, your interpretation is JACKED...the grace of God having appeared to all men doesn’t mean that all mean receive that grace…you make great scriptural leaps and reward the sinner for his/her sins you ARE BACKWARDS and what you’re saying IS NOT BIBLICAL IN ANY WAY.

    Part 3 on the way

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  34. savedbygrace,

    YOU'RE DONE LIKE A CHRISTMAS DUCK my friend...don't come back here with any of these BOGUS arguments again...at least try to bring something that makes sense 'cause it looks like you have a long way to go before you begin to get past this heretical/apostate benge that you're on.

    You said: “God said to Adam and Eve that they would surely DIE. Not one mention of Hell to Adam and Eve. Paul said the wages of sin is DEATH - not Hell. In fact the apostle Paul NEVERS mentions any place called Hell! NOT ONCE! Why do you suppose that is?

    There’s many things that Paul doesn’t mention (even once) but we’re not going to go down that road for it’s another post and there are ample reasons why. What you need to know is that Jesus acknowledges the literal reality of HELL and says that we should fear the one who is able to DESTROY both BODY AND SOUL in GEHENNA ie: HELL. Mt. 10:28 (There’s that figurative language again signifying a place of ETERNAL pain and torment beyond the grave AS STATED)

    Look Jesus validates Adam and Eve as so aptly point out...therefore IF you were consistent and HONEST (which you have a problem with) Jesus also confirms the REALITY of a NEVER ENDING hell which is equivalent to DESTROYING not merely correcting an individual specifically stating the REALITY of PEOPLE being cast into it...now that by itself is enough for you to recant your complete errant rant, but soi that you can see this a little closer you'll need to also examine the real message...

    What’s the GOSPEL message here then? Simple, AVOID HELL AT ALL COSTS there's much more to dying than the grave!...That was the scripture you wanted so bad and it was right before your eyes and you’re too blind in your heretical theological construct to see it...DO YA FEEL ME SAILOR???

    Look, try to make a consistent and biblical argument next time, although there is none against this topic at least be HONEST...

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  35. Harvey,

    You answers are extremely pathetic and showing no hermeneutic understanding at all. Actually, your answwers are non-existant! You completely avoided the tough questions! You have twisted the word of God according to your own demented brainwashed views on Hell.

    So let's take one question at a time. Why didn;t Paul ever tell the Gentiles about this place called Hell???? Was it not important enough???? Paul mentions SIN over 50 times in Romans alone - yet not one single mention of Hell! NOT ONE! Please explain that!

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  36. Nightmare, thanks for your reply. Don't know if this will help, but I'd like to give it a shot anyway. I just came out the the Word of Faith bunch recently when God, for 3 years, didn't do what I wanted Him to do in my life.

    I had HUGE faith in His promises, and I believed that if I just keep believing, GOD would make it happen. Well, it cost me everything - as long as there was a way to continue on my own strength, will and $$, I never once doubted that He would bring it to pass.

    We had many knock-down drag out discussions over the 3 years - mostly me yelling at Him, repeating His promises to Him. I spent most the time in confusion or total faith - frustrating to say the least.

    When I came to the end of myself, with nothing left I could do or give to the situation, I learned what is never brought up in the circles where I spent my time learning - the Will of God.

    I'm not one to look back, but don't you know that I have wondered what would be different if I had only sought His will in the beginning instead of mine - where I might be today. Instead, it's been like a wasted 3 years of my life but finally I see.

    And the second I got there, I mean the SECOND, He dropped in my lap something that I could not even have dreamed of myself, so perfect for me - like my whole life skills and experience was in preparation for what He had for me!

    As to your conviction of your salvation back then...I did an extensive personal study on once saved, always saved and I am convinced of this fact. Maybe Harvey will address this issue in a future blog.

    You can continue your life without Christ, because He has promised that He will in no wise cast you out, and it will only bring Glory to Him when the full consequences of your sins are washed clean because of His saving Blood and the decision you made years ago.

    But this I know...When you stand before Him, you will realize just what you have wasted.

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  37. savedbygrace, it's a nice thought that ALL will be saved through Jesus in the end, but that's not what God's Word says. You can't keep the verses that you agree with (with no understanding on context) and throw out the rest.

    For instance, why would Paul's lack of teaching about hell negate all that is said about hell elsewhere in the Bible? You either believe it all, or you end up with the mess you are trying to perpetrate on this discussion.

    BTW, I saw that History channel show on hell where they tried to show that Jesus was litrally talking about that garbage dump in Gehenna. Why do you think it's so important to the unbelieving to skew the truth?

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  38. Pastor Burnett thanks for the teaching. I co-sign with Saint James statement. Great article!

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  39. Hi Laura,

    Gehenna was, and still is, a valley near Jerusalem. During Jesus's time there, it was being used as a garbage dump. When criminals were executed by stoning etc, this is where their body was tossed. Jesus was warning of the death penalty. In the garbage dump, the fires are kept butning and the worms have pleny to eat, hence the expression "where the worm does not die, and the fire does not go out". That expression comes from the book of Isaiah 66 talking about CORPSES - DEAD PEOPLE! No one is any torment!

    Read Matt 5:22. You could be killed just for calling someone a fool. Jesus is certainly not warning of eternity in Hell for calling someone a fool! What about murder, rape, theft, child molestatuion etc???? Where is the warning in Matt 5:22 against those sins!

    Jesus NEVER taught one single word about any place called Hell. Hell is a false translation and a false teaching. There is not one mention of a Hell in a good literal Bible translation. Not one!

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  40. Harvey,

    You said: "There is yet another place, however, prepared wherein the eternal wrath of God will be displayed upon all of them that do not submit to the Lordship of Jesus, through repenting and turning from their sins."

    ETERNAL WRATH????? Show me that one in the Bible Harvey! It is God's MERCY that endures forever - not His wrath! The Bible says that God will NOT BE ANGRY FOREVER! Isaiah 57:16 says "I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me--the breath of man that I have created."

    So if you are going to accuse me of being a liar, then please remove the log from your own eye first so that you can SEE CLEARLY! The Holy Spirit has shown me the truth and HE does not lie! And God's word does not lie! I am quoting you God's Holy Word verbatim! You on the other hand use unbilical and anti-biblical words like "eternal wrath"!

    Was the cross not enough wrath for you????? Did Jesus Christ not already pay the full price for our sins???? Jesus came to set the captives free and to destoy the works of Satan. Are you accusing Jesus of being a failure at what He came to do???? Is Jesus not truly the Savior of the World as the Bible says He is?????

    Please repent of your false teaching and start preaching the TRUE Gospel - the REAL Good News! Most people going to hell is NOT good news! God is NOT a failure Harvey, so please quit accusing Him of being a failure.

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  41. Laura,

    Good job, those are the questions that this charlatan will never answer.

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  42. Hi Harvey,

    I already answered all of Laura's questions. Where are YOUR answers to my questions??? You are the one who asked me to come over here, and now you are avoiding the tough questions! Why is that Harvey?

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  43. Savedbyapostasy,

    You haven't answered ANYTHING...all you've done is assert your beliefs and they have been proven to be unfounded...

    The only thing you ask me is why didn't Paul say anything about hell being eternal...I addressed it by saying there were a lot of things that Paul didn't mention that takes away nothing for what was mentioned and HELL was CLEARLY mentioned in the NT as being ETERNAL and PUNISHMENT for sins which root from unbelief...Laura aptly addressed your obtuseness in asserting that Paul's words somehow would exceed the words of Jesus or other NT writers on the subject...YOU ARE A LIAR and assert UNTRUTHS...That's is absolutely clear...

    What Paul talks about is someone being 1- LOST (2 Cor. 4:3) recognizing that living individuals minds were blinded by the "god of this world"...how are they lost if they are living and can be identified by Paul...they are lost in their sins and the wages of sin is DEATH...what is death separation from God and experience of his wrath...

    Further the word he uses for lost is Gk: "appolumi" which means to destroy, die or persih from the root word "apo" which denotes separation os cessation and "Olethros" which means ruin, death punishment and destruction...All conditions that is described by hell exist in the word...what does not exist is soul sleep, temporary punishment, annhilationism or any other perverted doctrine that you'd like to think that exists...

    BTW, destruction is another word that Paul uses as it pertains to eternal damnation...in fact in Rom. 9:22 Paul contrasts "vessels of wrath" who's wrath? God's wrath! That were appointed to "destruction" (Gk:apoleia- which has the same root as the previous word but further carries out the meaning even more on a spiritually eternal basis). Then in Ph'p 3:19 Paul says that the "enemies of the cross" are fit for that same "destruction"

    1 Thess. 5:3 uses the same word "destruction" which I referenced above meaning (Gk: "Olethros" which means ruin, death punishment and destruction) And this scripture is referring to the judgement or the "day of the Lord"...let's drive this home further...in 1 Thess. 1:8-9 ~ "in flaming fire taking vengance upon them that know not god, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9- Who shall be PUNISHED with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord and from the Glory of his power."

    This brings together both the eternality of the punishment, the eternality of the destruction and the vengance" of God against all those unrighteous folk who don't believe and don't obey that YOU say God is gonna save anyway...

    1 Tim. 6:9 (YET ANOTHER PAULINE WRITING) specifies how riches draw men into destruction (sam word as above) and we already know about what Jesus said about the rich entering the kingdom because of the love of riches...The epistle writers used the same themes to show this destruction and eternal punishement concept as Peter uses it also in 2 Pet. 2:1 and 3:13...

    Look, you have not a word to stand on...and before i go you question Jesus saying of calling a person a "fool" and going to hell...You obviously don't know any concept about "false witness" under the Hebrew concept of such and also accrediting the work of God to the devil...Ps.53:1 is the reference and in it we see the "fool" saying that there is no God...this wouldbe a false witness and good works would be accredited to flesh and not God...Jesus supported the tradition by saying that someone bearing this false witness would be worthy of hell ie: destruction for denying God and making a false accusation...

    You are a fundamentalist literalist and violate the rule of biblical interpretation...CONTEXT! You offer no context, no scriptural support for your position and told me to present an argument in the original languages...Well I have, you havent and you yet persist because not the "Holy Spirit" told you so...Yea right...I know for sure the Holy Spirit of God TOLD YOU NOT what you are tryong to promote...I know this because the word of God supports my statements.

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  44. Savedbyapostasy,

    Your perverted gospel rewards sinners for their sins by giving them eternal ife against even their wishes...in fact according to your TWISTED AND PERVERTED DOGMA there is no incentive for anyone to be saved or come to Christ...in fact all people should remain neutral...Since a sinner will end up in heaven anyway why not be as wanton as possible and fulfill every fleshly desire...no need for holiness because all actions are mere illusions...

    You are SICK and that's why I invited you here so that I could do my part in giving you the truth so that you will either repent or be condemned as you spread your heretical lies further...even your judgement will not be not without a witness!

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  45. Savedbyapostasy,

    And I call you that because grace has nothing to do with your condition...

    A literalist like you interprets the scriptres like this:

    God has millions of eyes, because the eyes of the Lord are in evey place...

    God has feathers, because he hides us under the shadow of his wing...

    God is a general contractor and builds homes, because the scripture declares that unless he does it everyone elses labor is in vain...

    God lives in the hills because we got to lift up our eyes there to see him...

    We can use his word to see at night when there;s no electricity or light source because his word is a lamp unto our feet and a light to our path...

    He tastes like honey, the poor live in dust, the needy live in dunghills and formerally barren women are to stay at home keep house and be happy that she they are able to have any children at all.

    That's how a literalist interprets sctipture and that's what you do...totally overlook any context of the verse...and have no idea what metaphorical, illustrative or symbolic language is about...

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  46. Jjbrock,

    Thanks my sistah...I was a little caught up!

    Blessed!

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  47. Hi Harvey,

    So Hell is destruction? So you are an ahhihilationist then? Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

    Sin brings destruction to THIS LIFE! Lives are destroyed, families are destoryed, marriages are destroyed, relationships are destroyed, communties and nations are destroyed, people's hearts are destroyed! Don't you get it????

    It is NOT about any punishment AFTER we die! The goats in Matt 25 were still alive! They had not died yet! They could still repent! The warnings against sin are about the destruction it brings to THIS LIFE, not the next life!

    Once again, God never warned Adam and Eve about any place called Hell! They were the ones who brought sin into the world! They would certainly need to know that Hell was on the horizon due to their sin!

    Paul never mentions Hell for one reason only - it does not exist! Paul spoke about the reprocussions of sin more that anyone else in Scripture!

    Harvey, it is very sad that you think that Jesus was a failure at the cross and that sin and Satan will defeat most of mankind in the end. My God is 100% victorious in the end. I worship the One True God of the Holy Bible. You follow some pathetically weak and impotent god that either cannot or will not save all mankind from their sin. Very sad indeed. Repent and believe God and His word.

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  48. Savedbyapostasy,

    Here's another for ya:

    Rom. 2:8-9~": 8-But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9-Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;"

    In your world I guess tribulation and anguish is just going through a lot of things huh??? As if only the disobedient go through...after all that the literal way to read the scripture isn't it???

    Get real!

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  49. Harvey,

    Yes, Romans 2:8-9 is about THIS LIFE! There are no distinctions between Jew and Gentile in Heaven! There are no races or nationality distinctions in Heaven!

    And yes, my life is much more peaceful living the in peace love, and joy of the Holy Spirit. Living in sin brings MUCH MORE tribulation and anquish to this life!

    Thanks for confirming that these verses are speaking of the fruits of sin for this life! Now we are getting somewhere!

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  50. Savedbyapostasy,

    You said: Sin brings destruction to THIS LIFE! Lives are destroyed, families are destoryed, marriages are destroyed, relationships are destroyed, communties and nations are destroyed, people's hearts are destroyed! Don't you get it????

    See I KNEWED IT AGAIN...I was right...it's only this life that the tribulation comes...WOW!!! The problem is I get it...but you have no idea and are not even close to an understanding...

    You said: It is NOT about any punishment AFTER we die! The goats in Matt 25 were still alive! They had not died yet! They could still repent! The warnings against sin are about the destruction it brings to THIS LIFE, not the next life!

    The context of Mt. 25 was 1- When the Son Of Man came in his glory This was the second coming and 2- "sat upon the throne of glory" This was the place of judgement of God not a man. This whole scenario was one done in eternity NOT here upon earth. Obviously you've never been schooled in this either.

    You said: "Once again, God never warned Adam and Eve about any place called Hell!"

    They had no concept of even death, how could they have grasped the concept of hell? like you said it wasn't created for them anyway. In addition this is an argument from silence which is a horriffic way to argue these sort of things.

    You said: "Paul never mentions Hell for one reason only - it does not exist!

    As stated, arguments from silence are only powerful in certain cases THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM...Paul never mentions Jesus birth...was Jesus born?...never mentions Jesus mother...did he have one?...never mentions his father Joseph...was Joseph a myth? Paul never mentions Nazareth...did Nazareth not exist? There's a lot that Paul never mentions about the life of Jesus...that's not a problem in understanding that he clearly taught the penalty of sin and as in the verses stated knew that it was an eternal punishment...

    In short stop telling atheists that they'll go to heaven without repentance...that's NOT the BIBLE and you spread LIES that will damn mens souls to a literal and real HELL for all eternity!

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  51. Savedbyapostasy,

    We're not even close to any agreement on Rom.2:8-9, I simply rendered you TWISTED interpretation of the verse which I was right...

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  53. Savedbyapostasy,

    Once again, you render a literal interpretation to scripture and see nations and think of countries and nationalities...THAT'S PATHETIC!

    Sorry son, but we don't lose our identity in heaven. Israel doesn't lose their either...the 4 and 20 elders were from where???

    Look, cut to the chase, and through your lunacy, Rev. 7:9-17 gives AGAIN the beautific vision of heaven, I SAID HEAVEN, and guess who was part of the great number of people??? All NATIONS and kindreds, and people and tongues stood before the Lamb (v.9)...What was that???...OK YA DON'T KNOW THE BIBLE...read this out loud...PASTOR BURNETT, I'M SORRY, I DON'T KNOW MY BIBLE! It's that simple.

    You made a mistake and your judgement is off...I don't know who helped you get there but they need to be sued for spiritual malpractice and mishandling of the word of God...Your attempt to refute what I said is GARBAGE like the rest of your assertions regarding this subject...

    Paul was in no way silent on the subject of hell as I've pointed out...He gave descriptions and penalties and all that I've said...You just want him to say sheol, gehenna or something along those lines...he says none of that, but deals with the core issues and that's how Paul thinks and presents his subject matter core issues only...by his warning to stay away from DESTRUCTION he implies stay away from HELL...Paul though logically and spiritually so your point is NOTHING but blowing in the wind.

    Get it straight, REPENT for proliferating error and deceiving the unsaved into believeing that they have security...That's not the case...They MUST repent and be saved or they will be LOST as Paul put it...Lost eternally in HELL according to what the New Testament teaches...Now IT IS YOU that has no regard and disrespect for what Jesus did and for what he said...You offers sinner to scoff at and kick over God's grace by telling them to continue in their sin and whatever punishment they go through they'll still be saved...That's the danger of your Apostasy and that's yet another reason I'll continue to grind your bogus rantings into the ground...You are sending peopel to hell more quickly than anyone...you are one that is tryiong to "creep in unawares"...But I caught ya and every chance I get I'll tell you you are a child of HELL until you cease from your lies...

    If you don't like it...repent or simply quit positing...until then, I show charlatans and deceivers such as yourself NO MERCY. It's one thing to have a misunderstanding but you're beyond that...you have a conscience disregard for biblical truth and that's unacceptable on my watch and on my blog...

    C-Ya Captain!

    I have a hard time believeing that you're actually this spiritually inept and blind...I hope that your lies are not representative of what's actually being taught out there.

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  54. By the way, I forgot to mention further reference on the "nations" from Rev. 21:24 & 26 in the New Jerusalem where there was no sun needed...and that's also referenced in Rev. 2:22 where the fruit was yielded from the Trone of God for the healing of "The Nations"...even prior to that 1 Pet. 2:9 reverberates Exodus 19 calling the people of God a "Holy Nation"...

    One thing that should be studied is the science of biblical interpretation...some of these left wing extremists are damaging the bible message and putting Christ to shame...Doesn't mean I know it all. but what I do know I'm confident that at least it's been interpreted correctly....

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  55. Savedbygrace said "Sin brings destruction to THIS LIFE! Lives are destroyed, families are destoryed, marriages are destroyed, relationships are destroyed, communties and nations are destroyed, people's hearts are destroyed! Don't you get it????"

    Again, this isn't what Jesus taught. Jesus spoke to individual responcibilty, not some cosmic, universal collection of people.

    All we have to do is look at those who prosper and are quite content all the way to the grave while living a godless life to see the error in reasoning in your statement.

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  56. 10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
    ~Rev. 20:10-15


    If this was the only scripture on eternal punishment for those who die in their sins (without the saving Grace of Christ), it would be sufficient for teaching and rebuking.

    Savedbygrace, I'm afraid your pride has blinded you and you are dangerously teaching in error.


    "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

    Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."
    ~Titus 3:10-11

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  57. Laura,

    Did you forget about the finished work off the cross? Did you forget that Jesus Christ already paid the full price for sin to redeem the world? Did you forget that Jesus defeated sin and death? Did you forget that Jesus is the Last Adam? The Last Adam replaces the first Adam! He undid the sin of the first Adam and reversed the curse over all mankind! "IT IS FINISHED!"

    1 Cor 15:22 says "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE!"

    The same ALL that died in Adam will be made alive in Christ! ALL MEANS ALL!

    Romans 5:18 says "Therefore, as through one man's offense, judgment came to all men resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."

    THERE IT IS! Everyone will be reconciled to the Father by the finished work of the cross! Believe God and His Holy Word!

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  58. Look, Apostatewithnothingtodowithgrace,

    Any comments that offer no attempt at you trying to even comprehend the subject matter or address the issue will be deleted...You're not a Christian as far as I'm concerned and I won't allow you to rant...STICK WITH THE ISSUES...IF YOU CAN!

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  59. savedbygrace said "Did you forget about the finished work off the cross? Did you forget that Jesus Christ already paid the full price for sin to redeem the world? Did you forget that Jesus defeated sin and death? Did you forget that Jesus is the Last Adam? The Last Adam replaces the first Adam! He undid the sin of the first Adam and reversed the curse over all mankind! "IT IS FINISHED!"

    Absolutely! And I will stand and defend that biblical position until by dying day.

    But you seem to be forgetting something:

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    Yes, Jesus died for the sins of the world, but there is that call to action that can't be ignored. You are dangerous because you are teaching that Jesus died for all with NO call to action on our part. It is only when we believe He is who He said He is that we are saved.

    And that's not all you are skipping over. What does "perish" mean to you?

    John goes on the explain:

    "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."~John 3:36

    These two scriptures alone fly in the face of your teaching. Listen, I don't pursume to know for sure that our souls live on for etenity and so punishment wil be for eternity. We see through a glass darkly...But I DO know what Jesus and the Apostels and Paul said, and that's is to believe in the One God sent for salvation.

    THAT'S why I don't mind telling you that I think it would be a great idea to prayerfully seek Him in His Word - just one-on-one with Him. He WILL lead you to the Truth.

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  60. savedbygrace, again, I stand beside Harvey. Picking single lines of scripture without a moments thought of context (which at least Harvey and I are quite aware of) to try to prove a point shows that you are not interested in the Truth, but only in being right.

    You're not right. Check your motives and try to be honest. You do seem to post like an atheist in spite of your id proclaimation.

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  61. Harvy, it still boggles my mind that Jesus asked of us such a simple thing - to believe - and yet mankind can't accept this one thing and continues to come up with all kinds of ways to gain salvation either through their own efforts, or in cases like this, twisting the Word to be all-inclusive in spite of the plain teaching.

    What is so hard about belief?!

    In humility, I count myself blessed that I came to believe at such a young age, before the world got a hold of me. But for the Grace of God...

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  62. Laura,

    This fella was posting on an atheist site and the gist of his posts was about assuring nonbelievers that they too would eventually go to heaven based on the same twisted interpretations that he's rendered here.

    I know those guys (the atheists) and I've been dialoguing(sic) at that site for about 2 years and they knew his interpretations were jacked up but they encourage Christian confusion and use his type as a proof that Christians in general don't know what they're talking about...

    Believe me, the atheists knew the scriptures better than he but like you said all he wants to do is win an argument...truth and right interpretation are secondary if on the list at all for this guy.

    Thanks for your interractions, all too many times people sit back because they are afraid they'll be wrong about something, but I believe every one who is bible read, knows his interpretations are wrong.

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  63. Laura,

    "and yet mankind can't accept this one thing and continues to come up with all kinds of ways to gain salvation either through their own efforts, or in cases like this, twisting the Word to be all-inclusive in spite of the plain teaching."

    Amen! 4-real!

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  64. You are a good man, Harvey. I, too, have spend a fair amount of years in the atheist trenches, mostly correcting untruths. That used to be where you would find the most false teaching. Now it's everywhere, even coming from some tv pulpits - enough to give a person high blood pressure!

    I'll never quit standing for the Truth, but now I only confront what is right in front of me. Thank you for letting me share in this discussion. Another eye-opener, another example of a wolf in sheep's clothing for sure.

    Do you think he is putting on a Christian persona to lead others astray? I don't really suspect that here, but I've seen it before. The "Christian" comes in to put down, discredit and take away ground from the one speaking truth when it appears they are making headway.

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  65. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    "(and even though you are a spiritist, I consider you an atheist)"

    I don't have time for a full response at the moment (though I will get back to you and Laura asap) but out of curiousity I have to ask: Why do you consider me an atheist? (I have an inkling but want to be sure)

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  66. Laura,

    The ONLY ones in torment in the Lake od Fire are the devil, the beast, and the false prophet, Satan's unholy trinity. No mention of any people being in torment.

    Revelation 22:17 says - "And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely."

    Who are the Spirit and the bride asking to come? Everyone else is in the Lake of Fire!!!! The Lake of Fire is the baptism of fire that will purify and cleanse away all sin! That is why the DEVIL and his demons are in torment! The people are being purified! How else can they be asked to COME in Rev 22:17????

    2 Cor 5:19 says - "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them."


    Please read that VERY carefully! He reconciled the WORLD to Hiimself NOT COUNTING MEN'S SINS AGAINST THEM!!!!!!!

    Neither you nor Harvey ever respond to or answer any of the verses that I post. Why is that?

    Please pray and ask God to show you the truth.

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  67. Laura,

    Concerning John 3:16 - PERISH - not go to Hell. I have already explained apolloumi. People are perishing in their sins. Their mariages, families, and lives are perishing due to their sinful lifestyle. Believers have LIFE - the life that comes with being filled with the Holy Spirit. Read verse 18 - "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

    Condemned ALREADY! Not sometime in the future in Hell - RIGHT NOW! Sin condemns our lives right here and right now! ALREADY! The Gospel of John does not mention Hell one single time! NOT ONCE!

    I can explain each and every verse you post with the insight of the Holy Spirit. But you have not even attempted to answer any of the Scriptures that I have posted. What are you so afraid of - the truth?

    The Holy Spirit has revealed this truth to me, so when you call me a liar Harvey, you are calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

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  69. Laura,

    You said, Yes, "Jesus died for the sins of the world BUT...."

    BUT???? There are no BUTS! Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED" - not "It is half finished" or "It is almost finished." FINISHED! Are you accusing Jesus of lying????? Let's hope not!

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  71. Hi Harvey,

    You never answered this question so I am posting it again:

    You are comparing Paul's silence on Nazareth and Joseph to his silence on Hell????? Are you serious???? We are discussing the eternal ramifications for sin here Harvey, not Bible trivia! Is Nazareth as important as warning the Gentiles about eternal torment in Hell forever and ever???? You have got to be kidding me! WAKE UP HERE HARVEY! Your answers are PATHETIC! PLEASE give me a REAL answer - you know - one that solves this perplexing mystery.

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  72. laura,

    whatever he is he's not bible read and I doubt his Christianity in general...

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  73. savedbyapostasy,

    I'll answer ONE more time, I said:

    "Paul was in no way silent on the subject of hell as I've pointed out...He gave descriptions and penalties and all that I've said...You just want him to say sheol, gehenna or something along those lines...he says none of that, but deals with the core issues and that's how Paul thinks and presents his subject matter core issues only...by his warning to stay away from DESTRUCTION he implies stay away from HELL...Paul though logically and spiritually so your point is NOTHING but blowing in the wind"

    The question has been answered adequately...move on...what's your next heretical idea?

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  74. savedbyapostasy,

    you said:"The ONLY ones in torment in the Lake od Fire are the devil, the beast, and the false prophet, Satan's unholy trinity. No mention of any people being in torment."

    we have repeatedly said that is FALSE any further statements from you to the contrary will be deleted. Laura specifically stated that the scripture says:

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."~Rev. 20:15

    This WAS PEOPLE.People were judged and PEOPLE went in. Like Soilent Green was people...this was too!

    Please DO NOT post this assertion again, you will be DELETED...that too has been proven to be another of your misinterpretations.

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  75. I deleted your last comment because once again you try to reargue already established ground. We have demonstrated that Paul taught a clear eternal punishment describing what the gospels called hell...there is no annihilation in Paul's view...the torment for sin was death and hell...If you cannot move to a new argument you're finished...I won't allow you to reargue the post as you have been refuted in all points of your duisagreement...Do you have anything new? If not...you're done!

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  76. savedbyapostasy,

    You said: Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED" - not "It is half finished" or "It is almost finished." FINISHED! Are you accusing Jesus of lying????? Let's hope not!

    When Jesus said this it referenced the sacrificial system of atonement. the old system was FINISHED, that was the only reference...This is a good topic to explore so I'll leave you so latitude on this one.

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  77. Harvey,

    The PEOPLE who are cast into the Lake iof Fire are NEVER said to be in any torment! That was my point and YOU are the one who is lying! I quoted these verses verbatim! You are a LOSER Harvey and you refuse to repent! Now start preaching the TRUE word of God instead of your vile heresy! YOU are through and your false doctrine is through! I have the Holy Spirit and God's word on my side, and all you have is your disgusting and unbiblical heresy.

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  78. Your assertions have been answered and you're the COWARD because you do not deal with the refutations of your lies...now, Laura aptly answered your question by saying that you assert a superiority in Paul's writing when HELL is adequately described in other scriptures...Further Paul's treatment of the subject is apripos to his writing and you offer no new commentary regarding it...

    I will not allow you to antagonize because you are an APOSTATE! Plain and simple...You've had adequate time to make an argument, you have been refuted on EVERY point and you have nothing to offer in return...You're FINISHED...

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  79. Harvey,

    Jesus said from the croos, 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

    They did NOT believe and they had NOT repented, yet Jesus told the Father to forgive them all! That is proof from Jesus's own lips that all will be forgiven!

    2 Cor 5:19 says - "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, NOT COUNTING MEN'S SINS AGAINST THEM.

    Did you read that? Did you get that? Do you believe that? Time to wake up to the truth of God's word there Harvey ol boy!

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  80. Savedbyapostasy,
    You said; Did you read that? Did you get that? Do you believe that?

    For the LAST TIME...We get the scripture YOU JUST HAVE NO IDEA what it means and how to interpret it...I and we are fully aware of what it means. Like I said, Do you have anything new?

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  81. Harvey,

    Yes, I have pleanty that is new.

    The Bible says in Revelation 5:13 - "And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “ Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

    Everyone worshipping! EVERYONE! Unsaved people do not worship God!

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  82. Harvey,

    2 Cor 5:19 says that God will not count men's sins against them, and yet you say that He will! I will go with what God says and HIS interpretation, which is extremely obvious and clear!

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  83. savedbygrace said "The ONLY ones in torment in the Lake od Fire are the devil, the beast, and the false prophet, Satan's unholy trinity. No mention of any people being in torment."

    I noticed you didn't say there were no people in the lake of fire. So what do you think? Do you think those not found in the Book of Life who are thrown into the Lake of Fire, the lake burning with brimstone, won't be in torment?

    I've gotten burns - I'm sure you have too. I would much rather get a cut than a burn. I had a friend who was badly burned in an oil field fire. As the morphine would wear off, he would wake screaming in torment.

    Your entire argument here is that the Lake of Fire is torment to the unholy trinity, but 4 verses down, the Lake of Fire ISN'T torment to people because it doesn't specifically say they will be in torment...like Paul never using the word "hell".

    Common sense tells us that burning in fire and brimstone will be torment, so you have no argument at all.

    Then you said "Revelation 22:17 says - "And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely."
    Who are the Spirit and the bride asking to come? Everyone else is in the Lake of Fire!!!!


    Jesus' invitation to "come" is for those in the Lake of Fire!? This is nonsense. I suppose that when Jesus invited the Samaritan woman at the well to drink of Living Water, He wasn't talking about her!

    I've got to ask...Where are you getting these ideas? You say the Holy Spirit showed you, but I reject that notion completely. Someone is feeding you untruths and I would like to know who, or what group, because this is beyond twisted.

    So, you got it right and everyone else is wrong, correct? Two thousand years of Bible scholars can't or didn't see the truth - only you because the Spirit showed you?

    Well, you believe God's Word, right? Then take this admonition:

    "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
    ~2 Peter 1:20

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  84. Laura,

    There are 1000's of Christians who believe exactly as I do.

    Concerning the Lake of Fire. Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit AND WITH FIRE! In Mark 9:49, Jesus said that EVERYONE will be SEASONED with fire! 1 Cor 3 says that men will be saved , yet as through fire!

    The Greek word for FIRE is "PUR" where we get out root for PURIFY! God's fire is a refining fire to purge away the dross! It is a LAKE of fire, not a prison of fire or a totrure chamber of fire! A Lake is for cleansing and baptism! This is the baptism with fire to purify from impurity and sin!

    And yes, Revelation 22:17 has to be talking to tthose in the Lake of Fire because there is no one else! We Christians are the bride, and therefor everyone else has to be in the Lake of Fire!

    Check out these Youtube videos concerning Hell:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KARi1p-M_s

    ReplyDelete
  85. savedbygrace said "Please read that VERY carefully! He reconciled the WORLD to Hiimself NOT COUNTING MEN'S SINS AGAINST THEM!!!!!!!
    Neither you nor Harvey ever respond to or answer any of the verses that I post. Why is that?"


    I can only speak for myself when I say that your ideas and notions are so far out in left field that I am only now beginning to understand that how demonic they are. At first, I only thought you were misguided.

    Yes, Jesus does not count our sins against us. But first we must do something. What is that something?

    I can guarantee you that even non-believers reading here know what that "something" is.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Concerning Harvey's accusation that I am not a Christian. For the record, I am a born again, Holy Spirit filled child of God and lover of God with all my heart mind and soul. I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me. I have died and my life is hidden with God in Christ. I have died with Christ and have been buried with Him in baptism and raised to a newness of life in Heavenly places. in Him I live and move and have my being. There is ONE Lord, ONE faith, and ONE baptism.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Savedbyapostasy,

    Let me clarify, the scriptures you quote are not a problem and are right in their context...you however enter into heretical teaching with the assertion of your dogmas...Now here's the difference:

    Reform theology teaches that Jesus only died for the elect. Although I don't agree with that statement placed quite like that you take the statement MILES further saying that Jesus died to give the unrepentant sinner a place in heaven and to help them avoid hell...THAT IS INCORRECT...

    The atonement must be accepted...when you se statement such as the "whole world" you think that means everybody on earth...You literalist interpretive leaves out the dead...what about the dead, they would certainly not be in this world...

    Once again, that's your literal interpretation and what we have said and proven is that you're wrong...

    The article proves that HELL is not only mentioned in the bible it is a literal place of torment and that torment eternally...Your assertions were to the contrary but you have been overturned on the proof of scripture and the language used.

    The article PROVES that Kolasis is more than a punitive punishment, it is punishment aimed at the offender and from the context of the scripture it is described as being ETERNAL...a little reminder from the article: But sometimes in later Greek, and always in the N.T., the idea of reformation seems to disappear, so that there remains simply the idea of punishment, but viewed in relation to the punished"

    The article and our commentary confirms that death hell and the PEOPLE would be cast into the lake of fire and that was known as the second death...You asserted to the contrary and we have offered the proof of scripture and overturned you assertions.

    The article and our commentary prove that Gehenna and sheol were equivalent and intended to relay ETERNAL torment for unbelievers and the disobedient...Once again your assertions were to the contrary and we have offered PROOF in overturing them.

    Our commentary has proven that Paul taught the punishment of hell wrapped up the concepts in the word "destruction" which was a literal, eternal torment when contextually...You argued to the contrary but have been overturned by overwhelming evidence...

    Our argument is that all things should be interpreted in light of all scripture and in context to determine meaning...

    You assert arguments from silence which has proven to be invalid.

    Jesus work on the cross is efficacious for all them that receive his work...that is the "world" that is spoken of...the WORLD of believers and the obedient.

    Now you said this as proof to my point: "Unsaved people do not worship God!"

    That's is what I and we are saying...the unregenerate DO NOT worship God. As much as you would like to believe that a person can reject the cross and be saved anyway the bible does not teach it...

    THAT IS HERESY and that is why I call you an APOSTATE...not because of the scriptures you quote but because of how you assert those scriptures...

    NOW, OBVIOUSLY you have nothing further to offer...all others to chime in if there be any...someone may have another vantage point to offer because ALL of your arguments have been overturned. So unless you have something new PLEASE REFRAIN from posting further...you're points have all been addressed and turned down...The proof is in the thread.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Laura,

    You said first we must DO SOMETHING in order to be saved???? Are you talking salvation by WORKS???? Do you want some of the credit for your salvation because of what YOU DID????? The Bible clearly states that NO ONE will boast! NO ONE! So do you want to now boast by talking about what YOU DID in order to be saved????

    You must be a very young woman in the Lord. Who is teaching you salvation by works? Anything that YOU did is works! ANYTHING! Even if you wantt the dredit for just receiving Christ, if that was YOUR decision, then that is works because YOU get the credit for YOUR belief and YOUR acceptance odf Christ! YOU get some of the credit for your salvation because YOU DID SOMETHING!


    God's word says "We are save by GRACE and NOT by works that NO ONE shall boast!"

    ReplyDelete
  89. savedbyapostasy,

    What organization do you belong to? I know back in the day there was a group called the "Fire Baptized Holiness Church" I believe they taught a variation of the "purging" fire, but only related it to the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Do you belong to an offshoot of that group? If not what group is it?

    By the way, there are a lot of apostate and heretical groups...so quoting scripture and carrying a bible means nothing...neither do numbers, but I venture to say that any group that believes what you teach is a fractional minority.

    ReplyDelete
  90. savedbyapostasy,

    You said:Who is teaching you salvation by works? Anything that YOU did is works! ANYTHING!

    Hold your thoughts on this because I've got a post coming out on this specifically, but the truth is that cashing a check that has been given to you IS NOT work...the work was done to make the check a valid one. That has nothing to do with the one receiving it.

    ReplyDelete
  91. saved said "Everyone worshipping! EVERYONE! Unsaved people do not worship God!"

    Again, that's not what the Bible says. In the day of Judgment, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess God.
    (Romans 14:11, Isaiah 45)

    Saved said "There are 1000's of Christians who believe exactly as I do."

    Ok. The www is the world, so show me on the internet someone who believes as you do.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Nightmare,

    I said that in consideration of your argument of denying what I believe is clearly taught in scripture and holding it as myth. I understand that you believe in multiple gods (is that right?) so you are a theist, only not a Christian theist...So from teh standpointof what we believe we could hold you as an atheist...that was a kind of loose way to say it and not very accurate on my part. Sorry of I offended you on that.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Harvey,

    You have not refuted one single point. All you have is your man made commentaries and your man made contentions that gehenna was used metaphorically. God's word does not back up your man made interpretations. So you are in essence calling God a liar.

    John 1:29 says "Behold the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD!"

    TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD - not of believers only!!!! GONE!

    Are you claiming that the sin of the first Adam is more persuasive and influential over the finmal destiny of most of mankind than the obedience unto death of the Last Adam, Jesus Christ????? Is Adam's sin more effectual over most of mankind than the cross????? If you believe most will end up in Hell, then that is exactly what you are saying!!!!

    The cross was 100% victorious over all sin, all evil, and Satan and his demons!

    ReplyDelete
  94. Harvey,

    I am a part of no group or organization. NONE! I worship at home with my family and occasionally attend a local house church of college students. I am a pasrt of no sect, no denomination, and no cult! I follow God and HIS word alone - not the words of any men!

    ReplyDelete
  95. Harvey said "Let me clarify..."

    AWESOME post, Harvey! It gets to feeling like a foggy maze when arguments are answered, and the same assurtions are repeated over and over as if by saying it again, your correct Biblical answer will go away, lol.

    I also praise your effort to be clear for ALL reading.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Hi Laura,

    Check out these sites for the people who believe exactly as I do:

    http://evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/

    http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/culinks.html

    http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html

    http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html

    http://www.gospelogic.com/audio.htm

    http://hopebeyondhell.net/index.php

    http://www.scaredofhell.com/

    ReplyDelete
  97. saved said "You said first we must DO SOMETHING in order to be saved???? Are you talking salvation by WORKS????

    No. That's not the "something" we must do to be saved.

    I'm still cathching up, so I don't know if you realized what that something is yet...

    ReplyDelete
  98. Havey said "Hold your thoughts on this because I've got a post coming out on this specifically, but the truth is that cashing a check that has been given to you IS NOT work"

    I can not WAIT to see your post on this. I have argued "no strings attached" to the Gift in 50 different ways, and I never thought of the cashing a check analogy to legalist. I'm always looking for a better way to express the unexpressable, as it were. :-)

    ReplyDelete
  99. Savedbyapostasy,

    you said:I worship at home with my family and occasionally attend a local house church of college students.

    That's the problem...You have established your own righteousness and beed deceived. The church was UNIVERSAL my friend...not isolated. You have violated the cardinal rule of communion with the saints and it shows in your interpretives...

    Now, I know a fella EXACTLY like what you describe and he is an awful LOW LIFE, thief, crook, swindler of the church, and just had a $5 Million judgement levied against him for a land dispute. This was part of an apt reward for him because he stole from churches and thought he was justified in doing so....

    Now he is disconnected the same as you and does what's right in his own eyes lieing on God and calling it the "leading of the spirit"...I don't know about you but I know HE has a demon...

    Unfortunately, you exemplify many of the same characteristics, so I pray that you will become part of a group of believers like the bible says you should be and become accountable to someone for your teaching and instruction.

    There are no "island believers" and to suggest that the church has failed and you are the "only one" who is right is the ultimate slap in the face of God and is an occultic move and sentiment...

    So check yourself and get a grip.

    One more thing, don't let me find out that you're the person I'm thinking of...I'll have a field day with that and remember IP addresses do tell all.

    ReplyDelete
  100. correction - I never thought of the cashing a check analogy to use when speaking with legalist

    I was so excited I didn't get my whole thought out!

    ReplyDelete
  101. Harvey,

    Jesus did not give us a check! He paid it in full on our behalf! The full price has already been PAID IN FULL. We do not need to cash any check or anything of the sort! Jesus paid the FULL PRICE directly! We do not need to do anything! He did it all! Jesus get's ALL of the glory, Every single ounce of glory goes to the Lord.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Harvey,

    I just sent you an e-mail so you can confirm exactly who I am.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Matthew 25:46 and Universalism:

    http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/universalism/matt-2546-and-universalism

    Saved, the word I was looking for when I said we must do something is "believe". Jesus said you must believe, the Apostels said you must believe, and Paul said you must believe. There is no salavation without first believing He is who He said He is. And there is no scripture that says we get another chance to believe AFTER we die. To the contrary -

    "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
    ~Hebrews 9:27

    ReplyDelete
  104. Laura,

    Everyone WILL believe! Faith and belief is a GIFT!

    If all unbelievers are going to hell for eternity, then what is the point of the judgement in Hebrews 9:27. What is there to judge???? Either they are believers or they are not!

    God's mercy endures FOREVER! So can unbelievers ask for and receive mercy at the judgement? Does God stop being merciful on judgement day????

    Salvation is not about giving anyone a CHANCE! Salvation is about what Christ did on the cross!

    The final judgement will be NOT GUILTY - PAID IN FULL already by the blood of Jesus Christ!

    ReplyDelete
  105. Harvey,

    What church did Jesus go to? What church would He go to if He were here today in His human form? The Baptist church? Methodist? Presbyterian, Episcopalian? Lutheran? Catholic? Or one of the other 5000 denominations?

    Tell me Harvey, where exactly do you recommend that I go to church? Should they believe in tongues and prophecy? Faith healing? Name it and claim it? Women pastors? Infant baptism? Just what kind of doctrinal accountability would you like me to submit myself to? The Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses?

    See the problem here Harvey?

    ReplyDelete
  106. Savedbygrace,

    Before you are exposed for yet another fallacious argument, assuming that you are correct and the Lord brings you that "cash" so to speak, what do you do when he does? Put out your hand or simply stand there like an idiot and demand that he place it in your pocket?

    ReplyDelete
  107. Harvey,

    The CASH was already paid! I do not need to get it first and then pay it to anyone! My total debt has already been PAID IN FULL!! Why is that so hard for you to understand?

    ReplyDelete
  108. Harvey,

    It was a direct transfer and a direct deposit from God's bank account! I did not need to receive it! He did it all! He paid all my debts DIRECLY!

    ReplyDelete
  109. I'm sorry I lost my mind there for a minute...I meant savedbyapostasy,

    I'll stop calling you that...I got your email and we're good but I did notice that you did get banned elsewhere...

    Listen as long as you stay on point, set forth a clear argument and don't berade others for their points and counters, and admit when you've misargued and move on without reasking or rearguing everything and repeating like you do, we're good.

    If you can't abide by those constructs it's better for you to simply read on and pray.

    As I said we'll deal with the grace/works issue, I may have it posted tonight...

    So far as what type of church...listen, step back for a minute...take a breath and reconcile what things are most important to you...then pray, repent if necessary open your heart and follow the leading of the Lord...DON'T assert or assume that everything you bring to the table is straight from the throneroom, it's not, but don't let that realization shape your world either...

    The bible says, "God resisteth the proud, but gives grace to the humble"(1 Pet. 5:5)

    Therefore, humble yourself in knowing that the Lord may be leading you to a point and place to receive what you need to really grow into Christian community and be a blessing to others outside of your world...That's the mission, be a blessing to others.

    ReplyDelete
  110. savedbygrace,

    I'm talking about the debts already being paid before the check or the deposit...You're carrying out the illustration in a literal sense again...

    I'm saying that assuming all things have been paid and you're given money...look under your construct, even YOU have to set up the bank account right? Even YOU have to set up direct deposit...YOU have to verify your identity correct? Now don't play with me because I used to manage a bank-LOL!

    ReplyDelete
  111. saved said The final judgement will be NOT GUILTY - PAID IN FULL already by the blood of Jesus Christ!

    That's not what Jesus said. He didn't say anywhere that all will be saved. Again, quite the contrary:

    13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

    14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
    ~Matthew 7:13-14

    Listen, I don't care what you want to believe - whatever floats your boat. I DO care that you are trying to preach your untruths and are treading in dangerous grounds.

    You are so sure you are right and everyone else is wrong - well what if YOU are wrong and your teaching causes someone to never seek the Lord while He can be found?

    Right now, you are probably already saying to yourself "that won't happen because all are saved, etc. etc." You probably won't allow yourself to consider the possibility that you are being used by the devil for man's destruction for even one second because you are so puffed up in pride. And that is so sad.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Laura,

    Your are 100% correct and savedbygrace should approach the subjects much better than he has.

    He yet has not acquiested in his points and has a view of scripture that is not biblically founded so there is a danger in his error and heresy.

    Now Christian Universalism? I wonder if this is the same apostasy that Carlton Pierson preaches? I believe our friends at GCMwatch may be able to help us, I'll check, but that dogma is a doctrine of lies.

    Now, I'll give savedbygrace a chance to abide by the rules laid down for him and I hope he can abide by them. I don't mind debate, but when arguments are refuted I expect at least that a person acknowledges and humbles themselves especially if they are Christians.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Also for the record Mormons and Jehova's Witness are NON CHRISTIAN Cults...I would never advise anyone to be a part of their orders or temples.

    There is certainly no salvation to be found there as salvation is ONLY in belief in Jesus as Lord (ie: God) not a created being or the "spirit brother" of Lucifer.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Harvy, how does that axiom go when a Christian is speaking to an atheist? "If I'm wrong, I lose nothing..."

    I wish savedby would consider what would happen if she her teaching was wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  115. AGH!
    his teaching was wrong.
    Harvey with an "e".
    How do you edit on blogger. lol.

    ReplyDelete
  116. That's right Laura...If he is wrong...all who listen to him and don't repent go straight to HELL...and the blood is forever on his hands and I don't know what that judgement will be like...That's a mess!!!

    Thanks for bringing that up...That's why humility is in order.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Unfortunately, you have to erase and start again...and don't worry about it I've been called much worse than that "e" or no "e"-LOL

    ReplyDelete
  118. Ok, I won't worry about it because I don't know how to erase after it's posted.

    You know, I fear the Lord in a balanced way, I think. And if I'm not completely sure of something, I DO look it up and try not to quote off the top of my head because I don't want to add or take anything away from His Word.

    It's kind of like that with "once saved/ always saved". I won't teach it, even though I am sure in my heart of it's truth. I wouldn't want to be a stumbling block and have to give account for that later. Because I don't know it all, and someone can come along and point something out to me that I never saw before.

    I would hope that I stay open to knowledge of the Word and even rebuke all my days. It's how we learn and grow.

    savedby, the yardstick I use is "does it match the Word of God?", and your teaching IGNORES the Word of God - much worse. Someone once said you can get the Bible to say whatever you want it to say if you pick and choose your verses, but you have to ignore verses to do that.

    I think Harvey has done an excellent job in showing your error. It's your choice to listen and grow.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Hi Harvey,

    I will try to refrain from name calling and accusdations also. Please fogive me for my retaliation. I was wrong to do that.

    The full price for my sins was not paid TO ME - it was paid FOR ME - on my behalf! I do not need a bank account! Jesus erased my debt and paid it in full. He took my place on that cross!

    A baby cannot accept Jesus, nor can the severely retarded. But both are born in sin and need to have their sin paid for. Jesus paid for their sins as well. There is nothing further that needs to be done.

    Again. Jesus TAKES AWAY the sin of the world. He does not need our acceptance or permission to do so.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Laura,

    In Matt 7:13-14 the wide path to DESTRUCTION is sin - not Hell! Sin DESTROYS our lives right here on this earth during this life!

    So do you believe people are DESTROYED in Hell or do they exist forever in eternal torment?

    ReplyDelete
  121. Laura and Harvey,

    So do you believe that God would allow someone to go to Hell because of my theological errors? Does that make any sense to you? If anyone is going to Hell it will be because of THEIR sins, not mine!

    Jesus came to set the captives free and to destroy the works of the devil. The devil will not win one single soul through his evil work of deception and lies. God will thoroughly defeat all the works of Satan, including his deception of Adam and Eve. That proves that all creation will be restored.

    Romans 8:21 says "The creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

    EVERYONE will be brought into the freedom that we children have! That is the promise of God's word.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Harvey, if you don't mind, I'm going to take one more shot with savedby.

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
    ~John 3:16-21

    Savedby, first off, "condemned already" is the sentence for those who do not believe. You can twist it however you will, but the Word is clear - they will hear "guilty" because the don't have the saving Blood of Christ.

    Now what is it that you don't understand about "whosoever believes in him shall not perish"? Don't you think that if Jesus was going to saved everyone, He would have said so?

    I can post 20 plus verses that He or His apostles said "believe" as a prerequisite, but you continue to ignore this. You HAVE to ignore this in order to make your doctrine valid. Is that any way to get to the truth?

    ReplyDelete
  123. Hi Laura,

    I have already answered you concerning these verses. Here is my reponse again:

    Concerning John 3:16 - PERISH - not go to Hell. I have already explained the Greek word apolloumi. People are perishing in their sins. Their marriages, families, and lives are perishing due to their sinful lifestyle. Believers have LIFE - the life that comes with being filled with the Holy Spirit. Read verse 18 - "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

    Condemned ALREADY! Not sometime in the future in Hell - RIGHT NOW! Sin condemns our lives right here and right now! ALREADY! The Gospel of John does not mention Hell one single time! NOT ONCE!

    Do you now remember me already answering all of this?

    You are pretty young, are you not?

    ReplyDelete
  124. savedby said "You are pretty young, are you not?"

    I am 51 years young, and maybe it's my child-like faith that keeps me from reading more into the Word than is there.

    Ok, how about this? "Perish" means saved. "Condemned" means not guilty - born again later! And "eternal life" means life in this world. Do you see how ludicrous this sounds?

    This is fruitless, I can see. You have hardened your heart to the truth, and to the authority of those more learned than you (Harvey).

    I'm only answering your post to me to help expose your false doctrine to any and all who may being reading.

    ReplyDelete
  125. saved,

    You said:So do you believe that God would allow someone to go to Hell because of my theological errors?

    YES. Those who lead, ie: tell others lies, can cause people to not only to be messed up in this life but to go to hell also...You are accountable for what you set forth and judgement will be upon you for error that damns men's souls...What you're saying is UNBIBLICAL...UNACCEPTABLE and WILL NOT fly on this blog or in heaven...it DOESN'T fly with God's word...

    Perish means to be lost and to go to HELL... that's settled on this blog and in this post in particular...your explaination of apolloumi is INEFFECTIUAL and WRONG...

    DESIST from makeing further arguments that you have already lost...I told you I WILL NOT ALLOW you to assert your bogus rants...Acquiest because it has been proven that you're wrong...

    Please I don't want to ban you but Like I said please abide by the rules...If you don't like the conclusions that are set forth here begin your own blog and set forth as many lies as you wish until then humble yourself to order and do right....

    As stated your asertions have all been overturned and there is no additional need for you to try to prove what everyone already knows...Hell exists, people will be in it, and the language of the bible regarding perish, gehenna etc all pointed to a real physical and literal place called hell...That's it...

    Please don't make me ban you OK???

    ReplyDelete
  126. Laura,

    don't get worked up over this fella, and thank you for drawing out his illogical conclusions on scripture...It's sad but he'll stand before God for his error and deciving of others IF they listen...

    He has one more chance and if he fails he'll be banned. He was banned from another site for similar practices, evidently he can't seem to understand that he's the problem...

    ReplyDelete
  127. Harvey,

    I was banned for sharing my testimony and talking about the miracles that happened in my life!

    ReplyDelete
  128. Harvey, I just read your blog on C. Dollar. He was the one I had in mind when I said "false teaching even from the pulpit" yesterday. Him, and others. I guess I was still a bit angry after reading the filth that comes out of his mouth when I posted to savedby. Sorry about that.

    I know it's only going to get worse as we approach the day of His coming. But it grieves my heart that so many are being fooled.

    ReplyDelete
  129. savedbygrace,

    You're about to get your name back from me...I'm really trying to be nice...

    You were banned for not sticking to the arguments...I've shared my testimony also and they never banned me...you don't stay on point and you continue to make fals arguments such as the other one I deleted about the believer not having eternal life...This will not be a place for you to spout HERETICAL doctrine...UNDERSTAND!!!

    ReplyDelete
  130. By the way, I've got a new front page on works and faith. Paste this for future reference:

    http://bethelburnett.blogspot.com/2009/07/are-works-and-faith-inseparable.html

    ReplyDelete
  131. Harvey,

    Why did you invite me over here then???? You already knew my position on this subject and now you are going to ban me for that stance????? That makes no sense whatsoever!

    ReplyDelete
  132. Sbgrace,

    I'll ban you for imposing your false positions after they have been refuted...That's the problem all of your errors were addressed and refuted yet you continue to bring them up over and over...on a blog once your objection has been answered or overcome you then move on either to a new argument or a new post...You obviously don't know anything about that and that's why your presence is overbearing...

    Like I said your arguments have been made and overcome there's no more for you to do except study and move on. I didn't ask you to come because you know the word it was just the opposite you brand of exegesis is heretical and you refuse to listen, Laura has laid out biblical precident that you should be turned over and I agree, however like I said, I'll give you a chance as long as you learn how to get along.

    That's all I have to say about that. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  133. DENCOL aka SAVEDBYGRACE,

    YOU'RE DONE! UNTIL YOU LEAR HOW TO CONTEXTUALIZE AND UNDERSTAND ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH SCRIPTURE. YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ IN CONTEXT DO YOU?

    IT'S SAD BUT YOU'RE FINISHED!

    ReplyDelete
  134. The poster named savedbygrace, a man named Dennis Collins has been banned from this site...He has proven himself to be an unsaved and immoral individual who seeks to manipulate blogs and spread heretical doctrine.

    We can say that we tried and the truth has been made known and the TRUTH has prevailed.

    Thank you for your patience in even reading his shoddy, repetitive and unbiblical interpretations. If he is representative of what's being taught out there, we're in worse trouble than I thought, somehow I don't believe he is the representative voice...at least I hope not...We'll he certainly represents hell and deceit and all that it means but nevertheless...

    God bless.

    ReplyDelete
  135. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    I said that in consideration of your argument of denying what I believe is clearly taught in scripture and holding it as myth....So from teh standpointof what we believe we could hold you as an atheist...that was a kind of loose way to say it and not very accurate on my part.

    Ah ok, I see your reasoning now. I was just curious as to what it was.

    I understand that you believe in multiple gods (is that right?) so you are a theist, only not a Christian theist...

    Yup, tis right. However, I term myself a spiritual anarchist because I view worship of and obedience to said deities as entirely optional. Basically (and somewhat disrespectfully in a playful sense) I view the gods as overgrown spirits. Thus, I have on occasion coined the term "pagan atheist" for myself as well. Thus my curiosity at your use of the term.

    Sorry of I offended you on that.

    Nope you didn't, but thank you :D I must say you are turning out to be nicer than my initial opinion suggested, which is a pleasant surprise :D

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  136. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    I now understand you better. I believe that your position would entail that man is without anything called sin.

    Tis pretty much right. Note that I don't believe that there is no such thing as wrong doing - simply that wrong doing and sin are separate ideas. Sin is an inherently religious idea, one that attempts to convince the individual that his actions and even thoughts are worthy of punishment not only in this life but in unproven other lives. Combine that with the idea that "Before any acts are committed we understand that sin is intertwined within our nature" that is where the concept becomes a control mechanism.

    If we are talking about and omniscient God he has no other choice but to do it that way. So what you’re saying is that (although you don’t believe anyway) is that God should only be superficial in his judgements…but would that not make God hypocritical to look on the surface but allow the hear to be indistinguished?

    I fail to see why it would be hypocritical to judge an individual based solely on their actions. Thoughts can be mistaken, misinformed, unbidden. To judge someone (for instance) on a murderous urge felt in a moment of anger but resisted and un-acted upon in essence makes the individual's restraint a farce and is by any reasonable account a miscarriage of justice.

    if he had and allowed us to be born just to punish us as you suggest then, we’d all have a problem but that’s not the case.

    Actually, this is the case according to most Christian doctrines. Anyone who does not accept Christ goes to hell, no second chances, no matter what they have or have not done. For the vast majority of humanity throughout history (who had no way to even hear of Christ much less accept him) and many even today this in effect means that (if Christianity is true) they were made to be punished. Even as a xian I had severe issues with this doctrine.

    That’s the problem, naturalism has no way to account for this.

    There's no reason it should, since the state you describe is unproven and undetectable. It is an assertion of faith, not a fact. Thus expecting a naturalistic philosophy to account for it is rather silly - kinda like if I were to ask you why the bible says nothing about the Force.

    To be continued...

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  137. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    So conflict does not make anything weaker, if something is what it is it will remain to be what it is under even the greatest of conflicts and disputes and to doubt it because there is a dispute over it is highly unreasonable.

    Conflict has a way of destroying established power structures (ie the Roman Empire, slavery in the US pre-Civil War south). This is a demonstrable fact. Further, conflict with other ideas often causes the mutation of an idea as a matter of apologetic necessity. The history of Christmas is an excellent example of this. Thus "if something is what it is it will remain to be what it is under even the greatest of conflicts and disputes" is not demonstrably true.

    people are unbelievers because they “loved darkness rather than light” (Jn. 3:19) The reason that the bible is minimized by the unbeliever is because of the desire and love of sin to whatever degree

    As I demonstrated via the example of my late friend, this is untrue. Further, since unbelief itself is viewed as a sin all this essentially says is "people are sinners because people are sinners" - the statement is a mere assertion with no proof behind it.

    I will address the fact that there is plenty of evidence both for God, his creation, Jesus life and miracles and the resurrection account. All of the evidence of such IS NOT only contained within scriptures and is confirmed by secular, critical and in many cases even hostile sources,

    This statement is untrue. I have studied every claimed source of extra-biblical evidence from the time period I am aware of, and none state anything corroborative of the biblical story. Hence, unless you can provide new extra-biblical evidence for this claim, the bible is the only source for the claims of the Christian religion (those that aren't fabricated later of course, ie the Rapture).

    In other words his whole work is about finding ways to disprove what is evident even at a molecular biological level...

    I'm fairly sure Dawkins' statement was meant to convey the idea that complexity can be deceptive - something that any reasonable individual can agree with IMO.

    I’ve named ONLY that you want to throw it all out and bury your head in the sand as if it doesn’t count…That’s not scientific, that’s not exploratory and that’s not how the TRUTH is found.

    The reason the things you noted have been thrown out is because they HAVE been explored and examined...and found wanting. Therefore the truth must be sought elsewhere. Each new generation of xians refused to acknowledge this, essentially demanding that science reinvent the metaphorical wheel again and again based on nothing more than the same rehashed arguments as the last generation. As you have seen personally with SGB/Dencol here, that gets tiresome quickly. This is why science generally does not bother dealing with faith claims.

    To be continued...

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  138. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    Saying that it was for scriptures such as these that you did not believe. Those scriptures are dealing with faith, miracles, and God's promise to answer and strengthen when we call. Now you as a literalist see that when you ask then it should be done and if you have faith, then you should see the results etc.

    That is in fact what the text states. Anything more is reading one's own presumptions into the text or (more commonly) trying to make up excuses for why the text does not reflect what happens in reality.

    We place it on a level with any other fictitious book...(Once again that's me putting words in your mouth and let me know if I'm wrong)

    Nope, you're accurate.

    Or did God merely allow me to grow in a much better way than if it had happened any other way...The latter is true.

    What I'm saying is that I have never been utterlly ashamed, however I can't get all the candy I want at times...I personally believe this is where FAITH comes in my friend...All the other stuff in my opinion is empirical and there are leves of evidence but to enter into TRUST is a completely different thing.


    Taking this as the meat of the counter-argument, all I can really say is that, while such are nice sentiments - and understandable in a pagan context - that is not what the text states. That may be a literalist position, but I'm of the mind that (if the Christian god has the attributes he is advertised as having and if the bible is his word) a god would have written what he means to have written and that he should be truthful to what he writes. If he cannot keep his word in such (relatively) simple matters as this, how can we trust anything else that he supposedly states?

    Thanks for sharing that with us

    Your welcome.

    I and countless others are still here and made better by every adversity...

    As have I, but in a different manner.

    so don't take that as a condemnation because none is intended, take is as an encouragement to consider trying this again.

    He is free to speak to me any time he pleases. Indeed, if he is as advertised, nothing I could do would stop that. The final proof however, after every argument is done, that I am indeed right about Christianity is the simple fact that all that is heard is silence. If he is as advertised, that would not be the case. Thus, with all due respect, there is no reason to try again.

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  139. Laura said...
    As to your conviction of your salvation back then...I did an extensive personal study on once saved, always saved and I am convinced of this fact. Maybe Harvey will address this issue in a future blog.

    You can continue your life without Christ, because He has promised that He will in no wise cast you out, and it will only bring Glory to Him when the full consequences of your sins are washed clean because of His saving Blood and the decision you made years ago.

    But this I know...When you stand before Him, you will realize just what you have wasted.


    I thank you for the sentiment Laura. Though I can't speak for the veracity of the once saved always saved idea, I can say I would find it highly odd (and amusing) would such be true. I would not wish, however, to be in a heaven that my friends (divine friends that is, ironically all my remaining human friends are xian) are not a part of. Nor would I wish to be party to the damnation of those who did not deserve such.

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  140. Nightmare,

    You said: Note that I don't believe that there is no such thing as wrong doing

    So every action is morally neutral then? So to speak even bashing your neighbors head is is not wrong?

    You also said this: To judge someone (for instance) on a murderous urge felt in a moment of anger but resisted and un-acted upon in essence makes the individual's restraint a farce and is by any reasonable account a miscarriage of justice

    I understand where you are going with this better now. Let me say this, in the Christian worldview these thoughts let's say murderous thoughts proceed from our hearts...like you said it may be in a rage of anger and we may NEVER carry it out and YES there is a difference between what is thought and what is actualized...However, what those thoughts suggest, whether rage, ill informed or not, is that we need a savior. If left in the rage or ill informed state we could and will act upon those things and commit the crime.

    Christian realize the need to deal with such issues and that need is satisfied within Christ. There are many things that i respond totally differently to after meeting Christ than I did beforehand. Anger is one...I used to cuss when insistently angry, I don't now and my language has changed...that is nothing I have to think of or apply it's an automatic thing for me, for others it may be another type of heart response, but in all we know that the heart is in a terrible condition and therefore needs to be saved and we cannot do it ourselves.

    Regarding salvation you said: Anyone who does not accept Christ goes to hell, no second chances, no matter what they have or have not done.

    You then relate this though to the abundance of individuals throught history who have never known about the gospel or Jesus Christ. That's a problem for many believing that God only has ability to speak to and reveal to hearts through people. God is supernatural and speaks to men's hearts in many ways. One such way is through creation itself. Dawkins himself affirms that what we see APPEARS to have been created by design implicating a designer. Although he doesn't believe, what of the individual who recognizes the same thing and believes. Will god not reveal his "light" to them also?

    Then Acts 10:35 Peter (who was a nationalis in the matter of salvation) says something as he began to reconcile what Cornelius had experienced:

    But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

    The traditionalist wants to assume that Cornelius was not saved but I have dealt with that HERE and I believe scripture says that this man was saved. Now he had heard the message in order for him to change but the concept hold the same. there are many that God will save that we don't know how they got saved. Only ALL that will be saved will be saved not because of proximity, nationality, or creed, it will be because of what the Lord has revealed and how they have responded to that revealing. Will Jesus be involved? I believe so.

    Must Christ be preached for him to be involved? Not 100% of the time, as he is able to reveal himself without the aid of anyone. Paul didn't say he was preached to him...but that's another story now isn't it???

    I'll get back to you on the rest a little later but good thoughts!

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  141. Nightmare,

    You said concerning what natruralism can measure:There's no reason it should, since the state you describe is unproven and undetectable."

    What we know is that immaterial reality is not measurable however it is reality. Thoughts are an immaterial part of our material world. They have no extension in space but they are real, in fact they cannot be measured. So that's the point is that naturalism doesn not and cannot account for such reality.

    You said this: "I have studied every claimed source of extra-biblical evidence from the time period I am aware of, and none state anything corroborative of the biblical story."

    Then all I can say is that you haven't studied as objectively as you should. There are least 9 extrabiblical sources that confirm the resurrection event in som way shape of fashion. When you get finished with Seutoneus, Tacitus, Josephus, The Talmud and Targum sources and such the like all one can come up with in response is some grand conspiracy theory to explain away the evidences and those counter theories don't hold water.

    Biblical Christianity is further proved by sources even hostile to the events. Such as Pliny The Younger who inadvertantly affirms what Christian believe all the way to the beginning of the 2nd century. Other sources even later such as Trypho confirm belief and events disputing various portions that Christian affirmed.

    Further the bible is repleat with information that has never been overturned by ONE archaeological find...in fact there are over 25,000 archaelogical finds that confirm data recorded within scripture...Not to mention literary evidences that superceed by far comparable literary historical evidences of Livy and many other popular and undisputed historical figures...

    To say that evidence for Christ and the Christian history are minimal, is to bury one's head in the sand and say that you can't see anything...

    Now so far as evidence for God, what does the critic need? A signature on the cell...well he has it...complexity DOES NOT arise from the incomplex, SCIENCE says that and that's exactly what find BEFORE we knew that science says it. Secondly, the Universe itself is winding down, what does that mean? it means that it had an origin and science predicts that based on the current wind down that we're over halfway through it's life...whether you believe it or not that's a BIBLICAL theme that the universe and all that is in it was created by God...

    Along those lines there's origins, what quantum singularity gave rise to complexities that we see and what abiogenetic event could give rise to the biogenetic system we know as life? It is UTTER FANTASY, unscientific and a leap of BLIND faith to suggest that a creator was not involved and that there was no creator.

    So there's plenty of EVIDENCE and sound reasons to back the Christian position and worldview God, Jesus and the historical accuracy of Christian dogmas. The only problem is that the evaluation process of the evidence DOES NOT fit your control belief and causing you to discount it and that's called presuppositionalism, that's not God's inability to reveal, it's your inability to accept.

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  142. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    So every action is morally neutral then? So to speak even bashing your neighbors head is is not wrong?

    You missed the double negative. In essence, I do believe that there is such a thing as wrong doing. I just don't imbue it with a specifically religious element.

    we may NEVER carry it out.....If left in the rage or ill informed state we could and will act upon those things and commit the crime.

    These statements are contradictory. It seems you are simultaneously accepting and rejecting the premise.

    However, what those thoughts suggest, whether rage, ill informed or not, is that we need a savior...but in all we know that the heart is in a terrible condition and therefore needs to be saved and we cannot do it ourselves.

    I would disagree, with effort we can do it ourselves depending on how one defines salvation. As an interesting aside, if you think I'm bad (aggressive, vicious, argumentative, etc) now, you shoulda seen me a couple years ago - more than one (theistic) Satanist thought I was too "dark". M'Lady Hekate has nudged me towards a "lighter" attitude, using proverbial carrots rather than sticks. Just an amusing parallel to note.

    That's a problem for many believing that God only has ability to speak to and reveal to hearts through people.....Only ALL that will be saved will be saved not because of proximity, nationality, or creed, it will be because of what the Lord has revealed and how they have responded to that revealing. Will Jesus be involved? I believe so.

    I addressed this argument in a conversation with a friend a couple years back, but unfortunately the forum in which that discussion took place is apparently gone (otherwise I'd link it). The logic of the argument (within a Christian context) came down to this though - if one can be saved without knowing even so much as the name of Jesus (let alone any other information), then the entire point of evangelism and even the crucifixion itself becomes moot. After all, if pagans (and we are talking primarily about people who hold to non-Christian religions here) can be saved without ever knowing anything about Jesus or the JudeoChristian god, then why even bother with Christianity at all?

    From a realistic standpoint however, what you suggest - people coming to a knowledge of the JudeoChristian god via nature or being spoken to - we would expect to find pockets of Christianity (or VERY Christian like religions) all over the world BEFORE Christian missionaries ever reached the given area. History proves this untrue - the Christian religion has been spread entirely by the work of missionaries.

    Thus, for these two reasons, the apologetic for the salvation of those individuals damned by accidents of birth (in terms of space or time) simply falls apart.

    To be continued...

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  143. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    What we know is that immaterial reality is not measurable however it is reality. Thoughts are an immaterial part of our material world. They have no extension in space but they are real, in fact they cannot be measured. So that's the point is that naturalism doesn not and cannot account for such reality.

    Actually thoughts are bio-electric processes in the brain. The chemical components of said processes are why psychoactive drugs can influence mental states, and why chemical therapy works in the case of some psychiatric disorders.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience

    Thus, a completely naturalistic and proven explanation for thought (and emotion) does indeed exist. Any supernatural or spiritual theory must deal with these facts, not simply discard them.

    Such as Pliny The Younger who inadvertantly affirms what Christian believe all the way to the beginning of the 2nd century. Other sources even later such as Trypho confirm belief and events disputing various portions that Christian affirmed.

    Herein you state the key, even though you don't see it. All the authors you mention (save Josephus, which is likely a forgery) confirm the existance of the Christian religion and state what Christians believed. This is not the same as evidence for said beliefs being true, as not one of said authors mentions any shred of confirming evidence. Mentioning the existance and beliefs of a cult does not make said beliefs true. After all, you don't accept the reality of say Hades, Hekate, Persephone, etc simply because ancient writers wrote about the Eleusinian Mysteries, do you?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries

    To be continued again....

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  144. Harvey said:
    Further the bible is repleat with information that has never been overturned by ONE archaeological find...in fact there are over 25,000 archaelogical finds that confirm data recorded within scripture...

    As could be said for Greek paganism. After all, they found Troy.

    complexity DOES NOT arise from the incomplex,

    Gravitic formation of stellar and planetary masses proves otherwise, as does the simple snowflake. Meteorology is another common example of complex systems forming (spontaneously I may add) from simple components.

    SCIENCE says that and that's exactly what find BEFORE we knew that science says it.

    Howso? Perhaps you can point me in the right direction here? If you're talking about entropy here then you've missed the mark, since (regardless of the type of entropy cited) there must first arise some sort of complexity for entropy to break down, and the very process of said break down is complex.

    Secondly, the Universe itself is winding down

    This depends on which theorist you listen too - the most common model based on available data these days is that the universe is actually flying apart (dispersing). In any case, "end game" astrophysics is entirely too speculative IMO to base any argument on.

    what quantum singularity gave rise to complexities that we see and what abiogenetic event could give rise to the biogenetic system we know as life?

    While my knowledge of quantum physics is far from complete, a single quantum probabilistic event cascading into the existence of this universe (and likely multiple others) is entirely plausible IMO. As for abiogenesis, well, take a look at this recent event.

    http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=5277

    If RNA can form spontaneously, then DNA can, and if DNA can everything else can given enough time.

    It is UTTER FANTASY, unscientific and a leap of BLIND faith to suggest that a creator was not involved and that there was no creator.

    So there's plenty of EVIDENCE and sound reasons to back the Christian position and worldview God, Jesus and the historical accuracy of Christian dogmas. The only problem is that the evaluation process of the evidence DOES NOT fit your control belief and causing you to discount it and that's called presuppositionalism, that's not God's inability to reveal, it's your inability to accept.


    No fantasy involved. If I'm wrong, prove me wrong (you or your god, whichever - in truth it would be more plausible coming directly from your god. No offense) and I will readily admit it and adapt. BUT one cannot simply make statements and say that proves me wrong. One must provide solid evidence - evidence I cannot debunk - and one must answer my questions and objections. I will not be swayed by mere assertion, just as you likely would not be if I tried to persuade you of my "belief" system (as chaotic and ever changing as it is).

    If your god is as advertised, he should be able to engage me and prove me wrong with ease, and he should have the desire to do so. I say again - the fact that he has not means he is not what you believe him to be (in some way, shape, or form - I won't say which, as there are too many possibilities). Thus my original statements.

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  145. Nightmare,

    You said:"In essence, I do believe that there is such a thing as wrong doing. I just don't imbue it with a specifically religious element."

    Then on what basis do you consider wrong doing, "wrong doing" and how do you know it?

    You said:"if one can be saved without knowing even so much as the name of Jesus (let alone any other information), then the entire point of evangelism and even the crucifixion itself becomes moot."

    Not so much, it's all about human connection and availing one to assist another. So evangelism is more than tell or preachign the message it's connecting humans. The fact that god can speak does not automatically make it that he will speak in a certain pattern or method and his scheme is grand whereas our knowledge is limited.

    You said:Thus, a completely naturalistic and proven explanation for thought (and emotion) does indeed exist.

    No the examination of what happens or the observation OF it's existence exists not where it came from and how. Observations of the mechanics also exists but the why is unanswered and is only observable AFTER or during the fact.

    You said:All the authors you mention (save Josephus, which is likely a forgery) confirm the existance of the Christian religion and state what Christians believed. This is not the same as evidence for said beliefs being true, as not one of said authors mentions any shred of confirming evidence.

    No, that's a long way from saying this:

    "I have studied every claimed source of extra-biblical evidence from the time period I am aware of, and none state anything corroborative of the biblical story. Hence, unless you can provide new extra-biblical evidence for this claim, the bible is the only source for the claims of the Christian religionJuly 28, 2009 2:03 AM

    Now something is WRONG with that picture it seems like ye be moving with the swayin' winds me friend...

    The facts are there is extrabiblical evidence for "Christian beliefs" which are totally consistent with the record of what the Christians say that they believed, and the historically recorded events within Christian scriptures are documented BEFORE the non-biblical sources recorded their information...So that is settled there's plenty of evidence but just not the type that skeptics want or like to see and then there's the great "conspiracy" myths that have been debuunked for over 200 years about Josephus etc...it's all ad hoc in most cases from the skeptical-critical crowd.

    You said:"After all, you don't accept the reality of say Hades, Hekate, Persephone, etc simply because ancient writers wrote about the Eleusinian Mysteries, do you"

    OK, which stories do I accept? the ones before Jesus which offfer no promise, display no or very limited power at best and certainly make no claims for humanities well being afterlife etc...or the stories that popped up late second to early third centuries that mimmick the gospels, offer miracle working saviors etc...only problem is their claims are still stale to nonexistent, non recognize anything close to sin and non make a promise of resurrection, afterlife or offer heavely reward...which story should I believe and i'll show you a much better and well preserved and NON-MYTHICAL story of Jesus all day long...Hey I recognize that demons can give you much, the bible documents such but it's all at a price and that price is your soul...

    I'll get back...

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  146. Nightmare,

    one more thing and i'll leave you alone my friend because I do want you to come back. You said:

    is entirely plausible IMO. As for abiogenesis, well, take a look at this recent event...If RNA can form spontaneously, then DNA can, and if DNA can everything else can given enough time.

    I think before anymakes any leaps of fancy here they should know that all the scientist did was INTELLIGENTLY design an RNA process. Anybody that manipulates the environments until something and I mean anything happens...that just doesn't really give creedence to what they were tring to prove but that's how science goes...more of the TRUTH can be found at this link:

    http://collidinguniverses.blogspot.com/2009/05/origin-of-life-latest-scenario-gives.html

    Later Nightmare, you've given me some really good thoughts for future posts, I won't pick on you though.

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  147. Nightmare,
    Then on what basis do you consider wrong doing, "wrong doing" and how do you know it?

    Broadly, if it intentionally hurts someone who doesn't deserve such treatment, it's wrong (to one degree or another). I consider this an outgrowth of common courtesy, which I believe is fundamentally to any society. An atheist would likely refer to this as evolved morality - I don't consider it to be that complex an issue.

    Not so much, it's all about human connection and availing one to assist another. So evangelism is more than tell or preachign the message it's connecting humans.

    I meant in terms of being necessary for salvation. You echo this sentiment in your article on Cornelius:

    "Many have taken the scripture in Acts 10:35 ~ “ 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” to indicate that God somehow “overlooked” Cornelius’s sin because he “worked righteousness”. Once again this is very problematic as one would have to also believe in alternate methods or routs of salvation outside of Jesus for “nations that work righteousness”. Once again this assertion does not stand under the weight of scripture as Jesus states that “no one comes to the father except through me” John 14:6(b) NKJV"

    No the examination of what happens or the observation OF it's existence exists not where it came from and how. Observations of the mechanics also exists but the why is unanswered and is only observable AFTER or during the fact.

    Ironically, I both agree and disagree. I agree in terms that I consider the brain the "anchor" and primary interface between body and soul. I disagree because I know that a person can keep functioning normal as a person when the soul is missing or not fully intact. Still haven't worked out the ramifications of such observations however. Regardless, my point was that a naturalistic explanation does exist.

    No, that's a long way from saying this:

    Now something is WRONG with that picture it seems like ye be moving with the swayin' winds me friend...


    Not at all - you missed the qualifier "that I am aware of". I accept the possibility that there is more information out there that I'm not aware of (in every possible meaning of that sentence).

    Continued...

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  148. Harvey said:
    The facts are there is extrabiblical evidence for "Christian beliefs" which are totally consistent with the record of what the Christians say that they believed, and the historically recorded events within Christian scriptures are documented BEFORE the non-biblical sources recorded their information...

    Exactly as I stated - the Roman authors wrote about Christian beliefs. Given Roman thoroughness I would expect such records to be somewhat consistent with actual Christian beliefs of the time. And one would expect the beliefs to be written before the Roman records otherwise the Romans would have nothing to write about. And that is the core of the problem here - given the spectacular events of the gospels SOME Roman author somewhere WOULD have written about them, and said writings if they existed WOULD most likely have been saved by the later Christian Empire. We have NO extra-biblical accounts for the miracles of the bible that I am aware of. Thus my statements.

    So that is settled there's plenty of evidence but just not the type that skeptics want or like to see

    Sorry, but no. What is clear is that we have vastly different conceptions of what constitutes evidence.

    then there's the great "conspiracy" myths that have been debuunked for over 200 years about Josephus etc...it's all ad hoc in most cases from the skeptical-critical crowd.

    No. Josephus lived and died as a devout Jew. Given those beliefs he would not have written the excerpt in question the way it is written. That and other factors make it a likely interpolation at some later date. This is the consensus even amongst biblical scholars last I knew, so it is hardly debunked.

    OK, which stories do I accept?

    Dealing with individual remarks in a moment, the crux of the matter seems to be that you simply prefer to believe in the Christian story vs others of the time due to personal preference and perceived benefit. I do not fault you for this.

    However, this "NON-MYTHICAL" is what I disagree with. To my knowledge (covered already), there is nothing to prove the gospels non-mythic in nature. Note that I am not trying to persuade you to join the "dark side" here or anything (no offense, but from what I see you don't have the temperament for it) - I am simply stating my case.

    the ones before Jesus which offfer no promise, display no or very limited power at best and certainly make no claims for humanities well being afterlife etc...

    I disagree - most mystery cults were all about promise, personal and societal well being, and having a good afterlife. As for limited power, well, how do you know? Have you ever experienced it? Personally, I find your god entirely lacking in that department in my experience.

    non recognize anything close to sin

    Why does this matter? Why do you value the concept of sin so highly that you (apparently) cannot do without it?

    Continued again...

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  149. Harvey said:
    Hey I recognize that demons can give you much, the bible documents such but it's all at a price and that price is your soul...

    This is yet another faith statement. We simply do not know. Me I'd rather take my chances with friends that have a track record of helping me over a god the abandoned me in my hour of need.

    I think before anymakes any leaps of fancy here they should know that all the scientist did was INTELLIGENTLY design an RNA process. Anybody that manipulates the environments until something and I mean anything happens...that just doesn't really give creedence to what they were tring to prove but that's how science goes...

    Ah, thank you. I was under the impression the RNA formed spontaneously under the right conditions. As they noted here

    (http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/43723/title/How_RNA_got_started)

    they merely proved that the chemistry is possible not necessarily probable (as it would be if it has formed spontaneously). Thank you for prompting my to delve deeper into this and thus correcting the error in perception.

    one more thing and i'll leave you alone my friend because I do want you to come back.

    I won't pick on you though.


    Meh, feel free :D I enjoy this sort of thing every once in a while, and haven't had such a discussion in a while. As for coming back, don't worry about that - you've engaged my interest so you're kinda stuck with me for the time being methinks lol ;)

    However, if you wanna leave this particular discussion behind free feel. I think we've pretty much achieved an impasse, and truthfully at the moment I'm not too sure what the original point was anyways - got lost in the point and counter point LOL

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  150. Nightmare,

    That'll work my friend...and we'll deal with that Josephus passage later...besides even if you throw out the Testimonium (which I don't think is supportable) you're still left with the James passage and that's equally as damaging to the mythers...but, that's another story...we'll do it. Harry over at DC was supposed to be preparing some grand work on that and I haven't seen him come out with it yet...I think he was waiting for a scholarly opinion of some sorts...anyway...catch ya later.

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  151. Cool. Yeah the James reference is an interesting case, and almost had my at one time - til I read the context. But ya, another time.

    Have a good one!

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  152. Nightmare said "This statement is untrue. I have studied every claimed source of extra-biblical evidence from the time period I am aware of, and none state anything corroborative of the biblical story. Hence, unless you can provide new extra-biblical evidence for this claim, the bible is the only source for the claims of the Christian religion.

    All but one of my artist friends are either atheist or agnostic, and when conversation would turn to religion, one artist in particular would ALWAYS say "There is no evidence that someone named Jesus Christ ever walked the earth".

    Though I had bought the book "Evidence that Demands a Verdict", I hadn't read it and so she continued like that because she could see it was a weak spot.

    But before I ever cracked the cover of the book, archaeologists in Israel gave me what I needed to silence her smug statement. Over the last couple years I had to go searching for the link to the story a dozen times for other's that said the same thing, so I put the photos (clickable to the under-reported story) on my website:

    Photos - Archaeological Evidence of Jesus Christ:
    http://www.freechristimages.org/biblestories/jesus_calls_his_first_disciples.htm

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  153. Very interesting discussion, Harvey and Nightmare. A few of my favorite atheist scientist quotes. Hope you don't mind. :-)

    "Um, now that is a possibility. And uh, an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the um, at the detail... details of our chemistry molecular biology you might find a signature of some sort of designer."
    ~Richard Dawkins

    "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
    ~Robert Jastrow Astronomer, Physicist, Cosmologist and self-proclaimed atheist

    "Then we shall… be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of God."
    ~Stephen Hawking, atheist

    "From the perspective of the latest physical theories, Christianity is not a mere religion, but an experimentally testable science."
    ~Frank J. Tipler
    Mathematical Physicist, Professor at Tulane University and atheist

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  154. Laura,

    Good job and don't come back talking about "it takes a minute to catch on" or whatever...you're a powerhouse sittin back and layin low until you need to pull out the bomb and blow up the assertions of others-LOL

    Anyway, I apprecite your input.

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  155. Laura said...
    But before I ever cracked the cover of the book, archaeologists in Israel gave me what I needed to silence her smug statement. Over the last couple years I had to go searching for the link to the story a dozen times for other's that said the same thing, so I put the photos (clickable to the under-reported story) on my website:

    Um, what difference does this make? It's a 3rd or 4th century church, it doesn't invalidate what your friend or I have said in the slightest. Perhaps you have the wrong link?

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  156. "From the perspective of the latest physical theories, Christianity is not a mere religion, but an experimentally testable science."

    I agree wholly - however I find the results lacking.

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  157. Theological doctrine is a potential quagmire filled with "PRESUPPOSITION", "EXEGESIS" and "HERMENEUTICS"...

    The theological issue of the 2ND DEATH based on REV.20:14-15 is FINAL, EXACT and COMPLETE...

    Nevertheless, according to 2 PET. 3:13 - "God SHALL create "NEW" HEAVEN(S) and a NEW EARTH...."

    SIN, SATAN, EVIL and all things that defiled for 6000+ years will be a distant memory - the only "REAL" reminder (the depths of such sacrificial LOVE) SHALL be the scars, holes, prints (call them what you choose) that YESHUA* will bear for all Eternity in His Hands, Feet & Side...

    I thank God for REV. 21: 1-5 - "John sees a NEW HEAVEN & a NEW Earth - for the first heaven and earth were passed away...."

    Aren't you glad there won't be no intellectual, philosophical or religious haggling over the things that continue to divide us as the people of God?

    Somethings (if not most) I have left to GOD* and His Christ* - you see They know best (contrary to popular religious thinking where men (with matchbox minds) believe they have a slant, an angle, a patent, an answer for everything under the sun...

    The words of Scripture poignantly reminds us - "woe to those who are wise in their own conceit"...

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  158. Harvey,

    I've been studying the Bible about hell and it seems to me that a good case can be made for what is called annihilationism.

    From what I've read the fires of hell are eternal and it's where the worm never dies. The lake of fire is the punishment of eternal fire where ungodly humans will suffer and then go extinct.

    Jude 7-

    Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities....serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (ESV)

    2 Peter 2:5

    If by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly. (ESV)


    Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly. They will suffer eternal punishment, be turned to ashes and condemned to extinction. Indeed, Malachi prophesies that the righteous will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of their feet.

    Malachi 4:1-3

    For behold the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evil doers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of Hosts, so that it will neither leave them root nor branch.
    But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in it's wings....And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act says the Lord of Hosts. (ESV)

    Then in Ezekiel 28:18-19 we read of the prophecy of the final doom of the prince of Tyre. He will be no more forever.

    Ezekiel 28:18-19

    So I brought fire out from your midst; it consumed you and I turned you to ashes on the earth....you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever. (ESV)

    Indeed, all wicked people are doomed to destruction forever:

    Psalms 92:7

    That though the wicked sprout like grass and all evil does flourish, they are doomed to destruction forever. (ESV)

    The two strongest scriptures against this view come from the book of Revelation. Revelation 14:9-12 and Revelation 20:10. But when we compare scripture with scripture the problem vanishes.

    Isaiah 34:8-10 states:

    For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompence for the cause of Zion. And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur, and her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; it's smoke shall go up forever. (ESV)

    Notice that the text says that the smoke of Edom will ascend forever even though Edom was completely destroyed and annihilated. Obviously Edom isn't still burning today. It's best to interpret this to mean that Edom's destruction was irreversable. Although it was completely destroyed and annihilated it's smoke is said to rise forever. This is also true with the ungodly who will be condemned to extinction in the book of Revelation:

    Revelation 14:9-12

    And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and his image, and who recieves the mark of his name. (ESV)

    The text doesn't say the wicked will be tormented forever. Only that they have no rest day or night and that the smoke of their torment rises forever. This passaege is clearly taken from Isaiah 34. Just as Edom was destroyed so shall the wicked be destroyed even though their smoke will ascend forever.

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  159. Pt. 2

    The only passage that talks about being tormented forever is in Revelation 20 where the beast, false prophet, and satan are said to be tormented forever and ever. One way of looking at this text is to say that satan and his angels will be tormented forever and ever. After all, hell was created for satan and his angels. It tells us in Mathew 25: 41-46:

    Then He will say to those on his left, depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels....And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (ESV)

    So, while satan and his angels will be tormented forever human beings will suffer the punishment of eternal fire but will go extinct. In fact the Bible explicitly tells us in Matthew 10:28:

    Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

    The other way of interpreting the forever and ever in Revelation 20 would be to interpret it symbolically, as I already noted, from how it was originally written in Isaiah 38: 4-10:

    For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompence for the cause of Zion. And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur, and her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; it's smoke shall go up forever. (ESV)

    Again the passage says that Edom's smoke shall ascend forever but clearly Edom has stoped burning and it's smoke is no longer going up. The passage could be speaking symbolically of destruction that will be irresversable. In fact the passage in Ezekiel 28 could not only be describing the complete annihilation of the prince of Tyre but has also been taken by scholars as a prophecy concerning Satan:

    Ezekiel 28:13-19

    “You were the signet of perfection,
    full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    every precious stone was your covering,
    sardius, topaz, and diamond,
    beryl, onyx, and jasper,
    sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle;
    and crafted in gold were your settings
    and your engravings.
    On the day that you were created
    they were prepared.
    You were an anointed guardian cherub.
    I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God;
    in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
    You were blameless in your ways
    from the day you were created,
    till unrighteousness was found in you.
    In the abundance of your trade
    you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
    so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
    and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub,
    from the midst of the stones of fire.
    Your heart was proud because of your beauty;
    you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.
    I cast you to the ground;
    I exposed you before kings,
    to feast their eyes on you.
    By the multitude of your iniquities,
    in the unrighteousness of your trade
    you profaned your sanctuaries;
    so I brought fire out from your midst;
    it consumed you,
    and I turned you to ashes on the earth
    in the sight of all who saw you.
    All who know you among the peoples
    are appalled at you;
    you have come to a dreadful end
    and shall be no more forever.”

    So, even Satan will be completely destroyed in the end.

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  160. Cole,

    I understand what you're saying but there's an even greater problem if you're correct...Our "eternal' life as believers would be only temporary also...

    You see if HELL is not eternal, then life with Jesus is also temporary...

    The correct biblical construct is the understanding that eternal punishment was 1- conscious and 2- forever without end.

    The analogy you point to is good but not to be taken as a literal 1 to 1 correlation for the finite"ness" of hell.

    The language is only a "shadow" of the reality. In either case hell is eternal and without end. the bible simply does not teach anihilation.

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  161. Harvey,

    I believe that hell is eternal and that humans will be punished with eternal fire. But they will be condemned to extinction as it says in 2 Peter 2:5 and Jude 7.

    The wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life.

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  162. Cole,

    I understand Cole and i respect your thoughts and appreciate your look and rethinking of the scripture but your "type" or shadowing provides a complete problem which you don't address...If the life we receive in Jesus is "eternal" and "everlasting" and hell is also described as being "eternal" and "everlasting" then on what basis is the punishment of hell considered temporary while life with Jesus is without end? the scripture DOES NOT make that distinction and you are superimposing a belief upon the scriptures to draw your conclusions.

    At either rate just saying that you believe it is ok but not exactly a scriptural argument expecially when scripture specifically states that hell and its torment is forever and without ceasing or end.

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  163. Well,

    I think it's a possible interpretation. I'm not too certain about it even though I am defending it like I belive it. :)

    Anyway if hell is eternal concious punishment I still don't think it's unjust.

    The way I look at it is like this:

    People in hell are sinners and they stay that way forever. Just as someone who goes to prison for commiting a crime and continues to commit more crimes while he's there and he gets more time added on to his sentence.

    I see people in hell as being the same way. They sin, God punishes them and then they sin some more and God punishes them and the cycle continues forever. Therefore, the punishment would fit the crimes.

    What do you think of that?

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  164. Eternal life is being filled with the Holy Spirit while on this earth. So yes, it is temporary. When we get to Heaven, we will ourselves be eternal. We will be with God face to face. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is only for this life in the flesh, and will not be needed once we are with God in person. The word "eternal" is about the QUALITY of the life, not the duration of life. Even people in Hell live forever, so do they have eternal life???? Of course not!

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  165. Listen dencol,

    You ideas are jacked up both then and now and there's no scriptural suppor for your understandings...

    Eternal life IS NOT temporary and eternal suffering and HELL is forever...GET OFF THE BORAD UNLESSYOU KNOW HOW TO READ AND INTERPRET SCRIPTURE!

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  166. So I guess I'll add to the block list WANTING TRUTH and The Happy Heretic...

    Pleas don't post here again. Read on and learn if you would. Thanks.

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  167. You pointed out that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Are they tortured forever or are they destroyed? You seem to equivocate on what you mean by "lake of fire." Does it torture or destroy?

    I appreciated your comment on one of my posts on hell (http://codysblackbox.blogspot.com/2009/07/i-respond-to-sams-comments-on-my-view.html). I responded if you would care to read it.

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  168. ...Just adding thoughts. Many people haven't yet understood that eternal means no beginning, no end. forever means from point of beginning with no end.
    Lawrence

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  169. For many years I have believed that hell and the lost existed without end in a place of torment, however, I have had second thoughts about that...here's why!

    I think the "second death" is referring to annihilation because those who are cast into the lake of fire are already dead spiritually and have died physically so it can't mean physical or spiritual death. It must mean burnt up...destroyed or annihilated. Also remember that God in his mercy put two Cherubs with flaming swords to guard the tree of life so that "man could not eat of it and live forever" in his fallen state...sinful nature. This would indicate to me that God did not intend for the lost to exist forever. Just some food for thought.

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  170. Anon. MAY 16, 2011 11:26 AM,

    I think I've given ample evidence from scripture as to why annihilation is not an option when it comes to death and hell.

    If one is willing to concede that eternal heaven is temporary, then an eternal hell which is temporary would make sense. If not, that case that hell is temporary would be a case of special pleading and I think rooted in a human moral value or desire for temporal punishment.

    Now, the case could be that when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire that it is eternally gotten rid of and in that sense done away with, but that doesn't seem to be what scripture is saying regarding the issue.

    You're entitled to believe what you will of course, just let's not end up there whatever we do...

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