Friday, February 19, 2010

Does The Bible Deal With Sexual Orientation?

Or at least so says Rev. Dr. Martha Simmons, Creator and Director of The African American Lectionary. During a Feb. 18th 2010 interview with Santita Jackson on Chicago's WVON 1690 She appeared along with Dr. Brenda Wade who we will feature in another article. Dr. Simmons stated that not only does the bible not address the issue of sexual orientation, but the word which many people claim that was used to address this issue  (Gk: arsenokoites)  was a word of unknown origin and meaning and was allowed to creep in later translations of the bible. She stated that this word was defined by scholars as 1- sexual behavior or 2- sexual orientation. She says that most biblical translations only refer to homosexual sexual behavior not homosexual orientation.   
Here is the verse in question.

1 Cor. 6:9~ "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,"

Ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι θεοῦ βασιλείαν οὐ κληρονομήσουσιν; μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται (arsenokoites)

Dr. Simmons also stated that the Gk word paiderfastis would have been used by Paul to point out homosexual orientation in the verse. She also says that the bible is ambiguous or does not address  how atoms split or when slavery should have ended,  but it does lay down the greater principle of how we should live and that is rooted and grounded in love. 

What Do We Make Of Dr. Simmons' Assertions?

Aside from the fact that Dr. Simmons got a "whole bunch" of things wrong in just a short and limited period of time, she leapt into a pool of erroneous and irresponsible doctrine.

First, we have done an article on The Dunamis Word 2, Homosexuality & The New Testament, addressing this specific use of the word arsenokoites, and how the word was derived and why Paul used that word rather than paiderfastis.

In that article we clearly state that although paiderfastis was used to describe homosexual behavior, it was the word used to describe men who had sex with young and fair skinned boys. In other words the use was limited to refer to same gender sexual relationships between men and boys. In actuality Paul's words were not limited to pederasts or those who's object of sex was young fair-skinned boys or females. Within the scripture arsenokoites opened up and broadened the meaning and spoke more completely toward men and women who had same gender sexual relationships. Therefore, the use of arsenokoites was used to imply a much more broad category of same gender sexual relationships covering adult to adult and adult to child relationships. 

Secondly, Dr. Simmons affirms, surprisingly, that the word not only dealt with sexual behavior, it dealt with sexual orientation. Dr. Simmons, however, suggests that any ambiguity must certainly restrict the interpretation of the word to actions or behavior rather than orientation. There is no justification for this assertion. This seems to be a patent technique of the homosexual cleric looking to redefine biblical teaching to suit the sin of homosexuality claiming that those who practice such are simply discriminated against or disenfranchised groups to whom the church should show love and provide inclusion.   

The truth is that homosexual behavior, like other forms of sexual impurity, was condemned and homosexual orientation was outside of the order of things that God established and was nothing that was hailed as a virtue from a biblical worldview.  In fact, homosexuality is condemned within scripture in the strongest sense as being an abomination.

Leviticus 18:22 ~ "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination."

So far as love is concerned, it is the ultimate form of selfishness for the church to make an excuse for sin, especially when there is an eternal implication. Dr. Simmons and people like her show the ultimate disdain for homosexuals by not telling the truth, handling the scripture responsibly and explaining the scripture properly.  

Is There A Difference Between Orientation & Behavior?

Lets look at a modern definition of sexual orientation in order to understand this. Wikipedia says:
"Sexual orientation is a pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, both genders, neither gender, or another gender. According to the American Psychological Association sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of "personal and social identity based on those attractions, behaviors expressing them, and membership in a community of others who share them" [Wikipedia on Sexual Orientation]
First it is a deceit to assume that homosexuality is a part of a persons identity or how one is born. This is NOT the case. Sex is a chosen path. We are certainly born specific genders, but we are not born to have sex. Some of what appeals to us sexually happens and occurs without individual consent, with that much we certainly agree. Some of that is done before one is of or becomes a certain age, or has the ability to understand it. It's not unusual for extremely young children to have certain sexual inclinations. However this is not to be confused with orientation or how one is created.

Genetically, there is no evidence of a homosexual nor heterosexual gene or gene pattern. Attempts to say that homosexuality is based on some type of inherited genetic arrangement or in vitro occurrence, actually relegates homosexuality to the realm of genetic abnormality.This is a ridiculous notion that homosexual proponents are willing to carry no matter how much it speaks against their position. To say that homosexuals are genetically abnormal is certainly hate speech, but surprisingly, this is what we hear from many homosexual advocates and psychologists wanting inclusion for homosexual behavior within society.

The point is that the question then breaks down for the homosexual advocate. What we have left are people, many of them good and loving people, who have feelings and sexual desire for the same sex. Will they be condemned for their feelings even if they don't act on them?  

To The Real Issue Of Desire

This speaks to the heart of the matter. Is there a difference between what we do and what we think and or are driven to do. As a general principle one could claim that the lesser of two evils is to think about something rather than to touch or do it. There is some validity to this. As Tiger Woods found, a husband thinking about cheating on his wife does much less damage at that moment than performing the act of adultery. Neither are the optimum state or condition, but touching or use of the body takes things to another level and involves entanglements that could be much more difficult to break than mere thoughts.

However, thoughts do not escape God and only serve to reveal need. The fact is that God is aware of thoughts before they are thunk! The grace of God is that in all of that God does not condemn us, but remembers our frame that we are but flesh.  (Ps.103:14) But can a truly redeemed mind be given to evil thoughts?

Not if the mind has been under-girded as the believer's mind should be:

2 Cor. 10:4-6 ~ "4-(For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5-Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6-And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled."

Imaginations and thoughts contrary to the word and order of God were meant to be "pulled down". this carries the thought of controlling and holding, directing and possessing the thoughts and desires. Thoughts can be temptations, but they could also indicate the condition of the heart. This is the distinguishment within scripture. Because sin is so deeply intertwined within our being, it often reveals itself in a though pattern, which was meant to be controlled by the believer in Christ. Here was a technique to control thoughts:

 Philippians 4:8 ~ "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things."

Here's another:

Psalms 1:1-3 ~ "1-Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. 2-But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3-And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper."

The mind of the believer must be transformed and renewed and brought out of line with society:

Romans 12:2 ~ "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Who can do this? Only Christ! Our effort or strength is not enough, but reliance upon him and his grace is the only way to overcome these temptations and be successful in his service. Fellowship with believers who affirm the power of God is essential. This is a spiritual battle and it must be fought through spiritual means.

Sadly, too many of those claiming titles of Reverend and Doctor these days have no clues as to what that power is or how it actually works in the hearts and minds of men and women that need to be delivered from their sins.

2 Corinthians 5:17 ~ "Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" 

Blessed!

90 comments:

  1. Now the question is were homosexuals born homosexuals...I think one thing is clear...when jesus tells Nicodemus "you must be born again" it doesn't matter at that point, but then it does.

    We are all born into sin. However that doesn't excuse our actions or response to our conditions. I think this is where the homosexual misses it many times. Our condition, does not justify us in any way in GOd's eyes. We are only justified through faith in Christ and we can only do that through repentance and turning from sin no matter how close that sin is to us ie: whether we think we were born with it or not.

    Now, some will say, people are born with birth defects everyday. I am not willing to say that homosexuality is a birth defect or that a homosexual is somehow defective. Dr. Brenda Wade articulates that position and I believe it's a slap in the face to homosexuals in general. She claims that those who think like me are homophobic (a made up word) while she is said to be a homosexual advocate...go figure!

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  2. Mankind is born with all kinds of predispositions because of his/her fallen condition. However, regardless of those conditions we are obligated to Repent & Believe.

    Sin in any form whether via nurture or nature must be repented of.

    Unfortunately many people want to normalize their sin nature.

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  3. This is interesting. I read on the other day a gay activist was writing that the number one reason that gays have not achieved their rights in America is because most people still dont believe homosexuals are born gay. Thus, fundamentally they do not agree with many aspects of gay civil rights. He made the arguement that they should focus on repeatedly telling the American public that this is a matter of genetics until they get it.

    Supt Barnett, this same strategy is being deployed against the church (inside agents like Simmons) to tear down the walls of normalcy built up by God. This whole idea of a homosexual gene, being born gay, etc is as preposterous as little green men eating ice cream cones on the surface of the sun.

    Yet, with people like the "educated" Simmons running front game for this, many gullible people will be deceived.

    I looked at the site and saw that Claudette Copeland endorsed it. She probably doesnt know that Simmons is publicly teaching such heresy.

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  4. The problem with the "pederasts" claim by the GCM is that in those times it was NOT uncommon for girls as young as 14 being married. In those ancient times once puberty had set in you were basically ready to marry.

    From this point the GCM would have a problem because their "window of opportunity" in terms of what was pedophilia is shortened.

    This boxes the GCM into narrowly defining “pederasts” from the “biblical perspective of antiquities” meaning maybe 10 years old for girls and maybe 12 years old for boys.

    So again if we were to apply their logic we would assume the following:

    -In antiquities people married and were sexually active at very early years in their life
    -"Pederasts" from "antiquities" would have to be defined then as pre-pubescent
    -According to GCM Paul was speaking of pedophilia not homosexuality


    Therefore for the GCM to be intellectually honest they would have to imply that young boys/girls (11-13) with grown men/women would not be considered pedophilia in ancient times.


    Hmmm!

    Kyle

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  5. I had to deliver this from a very good high school friend and one of our Facebook commentors:

    "The agenda is to demonize those who stand up for Biblical truth and to normalize those activities that are abnormal or perverted. Make no mistake this IS an agenda, and there is nothing new about it. Christians have seen this tactic used since the beginning of time. All sinners approach Biblical condemnation in one of ONLY two ways, either with a... See More repentant heart or with a hardened heart. The best example of this, for me was the crucifixion of the two thieves with Jesus the Christ. There are those today, as in history that proceeds them, that don't like the fact the Bible condemns their behavior, but rather that change themselves they attempt to change the Bible by changing society around them. To these people I would like to say: 1. The Bible condemns us all and that only through repentance can we claim the victory that is Christs. 2. There will be no society for you or anyone else on judgment day. You alone will answer for your life.

    All over the U.S. Churches are caving to the financial pressure to except homosexuality as some sort of birth defect. It is a shame and it saddens my heart. How ironic it is that homosexuality is something your born with, yet pedophilia can be treated through rehabilitation. What about other forms of sexual perversion.....like necrophilia or bestiality....are these people born that way as well??? Insanity. There is truly no other word for it.

    It may seem as though I harbor some deep hatred for those living the gay lifestyle. Nothing could be further from the truth. Many within the gay community act more like Christians than Christians do. It may seem sacrilegious to say so but, I'm much more concerned with my own sins than with the sins of others. What do I know that's just my opinion. God Bless"

    Chuck G.

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  6. Im down with Chuck G's first part, but that last few sentences really threw me for a loop.

    Oh well.

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  7. Chuck said "Many within the gay community act more like Christians than Christians do."

    You mean like gays that hang out in bars and parks restrooms looking for an anonymous lover-of-the-moment and knowingly spreading HIV? Or the ones that yank signs out of elderly ladies hands and push them down? Or are you talking about the celebrity ones that are always talking hateful about "those christians", even saying that Christ was gay? (Elton John)

    See...when you lump everyone together in a group, tag them as "gay" or "christian" and then follow that with a disparaging statement, you're only reinforcing the stereotype, be it gay or christian.

    Keep in mind that many christians are brand new baby christians, some are on their way to leaving their faith, and some - you don't know how much worse they would be if they weren't christians!

    Pastor, I don't see what your beef is with Rev. Simmons. The Bible is clear about the behavior, so if you're gay (not meaning you), just don't have sex! That's a no-brainer. I'm puzzled...what do you think she is saying that you're opposed to?

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  8. In my view, what Rev. Simmons is endorsing is the view that gay is somehow an arbitrary default for some individuals. That, for whatever reason, God created homosexuality as a diversity among mankind. I don't believe taht to be the case. Homosexuality like all sin is a corruption of the orderly, right and appropriate desire that cross gender people have for one another.

    Can a person simply deny themselves homosexual sex and be pure before God? I don't think so. Although, there may be a struggle as with anything, I believe that sexuality is a somewhat different category of an issue. In general sexual impurity comes under a section of sin against one's own body (1 Cor. 6:18)

    Is it ok for a married man to obsess on other women just not do the act? Jesus pointed out and said NO, he is guilty. A homosexual merely taming his desires does not exclude them from guilt. As I point out, there are greater entanglements when thoughts becaome actions but we are yet not exempt from having right and pure thoughts.

    My claim is that the bible not only speaks toward behaviors, but speaks towards the heart's position towards the sin itself. This is a very big difference between Simmons and me.

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  9. Laura, the bible doesnt just concern itself (or address) sexual behavior.

    It also address motive, desires, thoughts, emotions. If such things are a result of sinful behavior, they are to be (according to Jesus) treated AS IF it were behavior, thus just as sinful.

    Jesus said that you cannot look at a woman to lust and walk away not having committed the act. For a man or woman to say there are attracted to the same gender (as a lifestyle) and just because they do not act on it, it truly missing the mark of holiness. At the very least they should acknowledge this attraction is not the will of God. And who says GOD cannot change one's long held attractions?

    I still dont see what any true follower of Christ would want to identify themselves as "gay" but not having sex. What's the benefit of publicly identifying yourself with a sinful condition, many times as a badge of honor.

    Can we use the same with thief, but not stealing?

    Whore, but not whoring?

    Sexually attracted to animals, but I dont engage in the behavior?

    Why is it that homosexuality which is a destructive expression of sexuality given a pass?

    Perhaps some have become completely desensitized to the word gay.

    Take it from someone who was in it for 11 years. Abomination doesnt begin to describe what it really is.

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  10. Pastor Harvey said "Can a person simply deny themselves homosexual sex and be pure before God? I don't think so."

    That's not what Paul said. He said Jesus nailed it to the Cross (Colossians 2).
    And from the same chapter you are teaching from: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."1 Cor. 6:11

    You said "Is it ok for a married man to obsess on other women just not do the act? Jesus pointed out and said NO, he is guilty." Aren't you confusing guilt of the sinner with condemnation of the unbeliever? Jesus was showing what sin is to a group of Jews that thought they were perfect for following the law. Christ pointed out that looking and lusting is just the same, and He nailed both to the Cross. You know this, so why am I explaining it?
    From your post:

    Romans 12:2 ~ "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
    Who can do this? Only Christ!

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  11. gmwatch said "Why is it that homosexuality which is a destructive expression of sexuality given a pass?

    Hi gm! I guess that's what I'm not understanding here. I don't see where it's being given a pass.

    Surely you know someone who went that direction at a young age. I do. The boy that liked to play with dolls, that talked different then other boys, was so much more sensitive emotionally and cried sometimes. Saved in catholic school, goes on to a life of perfersion. You know and I know that Jesus foresaw every single thing this young boy would do in his entire life, and He loves him anyway. He died for him. Now tell me how Jesus got it wrong.

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  12. You said "Take it from someone who was in it for 11 years."

    Ok...I think I'm getting it here on what the objection is. You came out of that lifestyle, so tell me, was it in your own power? Did you fight and resist, and overcome by your own sheer will?

    I once said that if I can ever stop smoking, I'll be like those women that fan their faces outside in the open air the second they see someone light a cig. In other words, because it was so hard, and I finally overcame the demon cigs, I'll be like them, the intolerant.

    Then I discovered that I can't even put my feet on the floor each morning without Christ. That everything I boasted of in myself was actually Him. How could I be intolerant of smokers when I know that it's only the Grace of God that I was delivered? And if He delivered me, He will deliver them also, in His own way in His own time. And He SURE doesn't need sister christian waving her hands at the smoke in condemnation.

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  13. Just a few "thoughts". I in no way have it all toghether however when my thinking is on point and when I take thoughts captive immediately, my Christian walk is much more fulfilling.

    It is the thoughts that are the major problem as we cannot sin without first thinking it. The thoughts are the seeds of the actions.

    Proverbs 4:23 (New American Standard Bible)
    23Watch over your heart with all diligence,
    For (A)from it flow the springs of life.


    Mark 7:15
    15 It’s not what goes into your body that defiles you; you are defiled by what comes from your heart.[a]”

    20 And then he added, “It is what comes from inside that defiles you. 21 For from within, out of a person’s heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.


    Proverbs 23:7 (New King James Version)
    7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.



    Can we acheive this holiness and control of our thoughts by our own power, no way, but through Christ we can as we all know.

    The scriptures give us some very direct that we should resist sin. This one comes to mind.

    Hebrews 12
    1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,



    I know this to be fact, when we fail its because we allow the thoughts to fester.

    James 1
    13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.


    I therefore, totally agree with Pastor Harvey. NO EXCUSES should be made for sin and simple refraining should not be seen as all that is needed. Sure we should begin with that but scripture is very clear that evil thoughts are the root of sin, therefore a transformed mined is necessary. We will not reach perfection on earth but endevour we must.

    For those who are struggling with homosexuality, the body of Christ should be a place of refuge but again no excuses becuase God has given us the power to overcome sin not matter how entrenched it is.

    We also know to be careful of thinking we have it all together as we stand only by Gods grace.

    I Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

    However truth is truth and must be taught.

    Blessings!!

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  14. I meant to say "Christians" who are struggling with homosexuality...

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  15. Laura,

    I believe you have your categories confused. There is no pass for sin in the heart of the believer or unbeliever. Jesus nailing sin to the cross does not exempt one from overcoming sin.

    1st there's the practical aspect. The believe can't live in sin:

    Romans 6:2~GOD FORBID. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Romans 6:15~What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? GOD FORBID.

    A believer recognizes that the actions of the flesh are a result of the sinful condition of the heart. The heart is what defiles:

    Mk. 7:20-23~"20-And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21-For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22-Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23-All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

    These things REMAIN condemned by God. They don't receive a pass simply because one claims salvation. What did Paul say in Galations:

    Gal. 5:19-25 ~ "19-Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20-Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21-Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 2-2But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23-Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24-And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25-If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    They which do such things does not offer a class distinction between those that are saved or not...in fact the whole verse is written letting them that are "saved" know their spiritual position and place. Then aside from that our natures should be renewed in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17) not unto sin but unto righteousness. Believers don't practice sin:

    John 8:34 ~Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

    1 John 3:4~Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    1 John 3:8~He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    So what do we have? It's pretty clear.

    1- Christ came to deliver us from not only the penalty of sin but the position of sin. We are no longer sinners in him.

    2- As we are in a world of sin and do sin even in our thoughts, repentance is available for sin as we confess such and turn from it.

    3- Since we observe that homosexual activity/lust and desire are products of sin it must be repented of and not compromised with

    4- Failure to deal with it does not lead to a lesser blessing in the kingdom, it leads to separation from God and hell.

    So Laura I believe (I hope) that I have provided adequate support from my position and though this is a though provoking subject, I believe the reasoning from scripture stands.

    Take your suggestion out further. Replace homosexuality with any other sin that you can think of...let's just say murder for instance...would you hold the same opinion?

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  16. Laura we're not talking about intolerance, we're talking about false teachings using the bible as justification.

    That's the issue at hand. Dont cherry pick a sentence and make a strawman.

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  17. Psalm 19:14 (New King James Version)
    14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my strength and my Redeemer.

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  18. Pastor Harvey said "4- Failure to deal with it does not lead to a lesser blessing in the kingdom, it leads to separation from God and hell."

    You have got to be kidding! Is this what you teach from the pulpit? You are treading dangerously close to anathema by adding to the Word of God.

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  19. gmcwatch said "we're talking about false teachings using the bible as justification.
    That's the issue at hand. Dont cherry pick a sentence and make a strawman."


    Strawman? Strawmen are for debate. I'm trying to figure out what y'all think is the false teaching. What did she SAY that you consider false teaching?

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  20. Laura,

    You said:You are treading dangerously close to anathema by adding to the Word of God.

    Laura you ARE presenting false doctrine and part of the proof is that you provide no scriptural support for your position.

    Now, deal with the arguemnts without trying to trample grace and mercy or abuse the holiness of God. Continuing in sin so that grace would aboud is ANATHEMA and that's what you're communicating not me.

    Romans 6:1-2 ~ "1-What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2-God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

    I thought maybe I should quote that instead fo the second verse that I did earlier.

    So deal with scripture please.

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  21. Her whole discourse is false doctrine for all the reasons that we name. Can't lay it out any better than what it is.

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  22. I can't get over this, Pastor. You have used the very chapter (Galatians 5) that explains our liberty to put us in chains again!

    Galatians 5 tells us that as soon as we add something to faith, we cancel the work of the Cross. I'm afraid millions, upon millions of church-going people are going to miss Heaven's glory because that's exactly what they've done.

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  23. Romans 6:1-2 ~ "1-What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2-God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

    Pastor, respectfully, I can't open your eyes to this scripture, but I'm praying that God does.

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  24. Its really not that difficult, we are discussing the content of this post, not a sentence you cherry picked from my comment to argue against. Perhaps you should go back, read what he wrote and then start from there.

    Having done that, one could easily see that Simmons is using scripture to foster support and acceptance for a sexual expression God has condemned.

    That's called false teaching. False teaching is destructive to the body of Christ and to an individual's spiritual health.

    I hope that brings you up to speed Laura since youre having such a hard time.

    Unfortunately it has become a debate. Check the definition of the word.

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  25. After reading the article, then the comments from Laura, I had to go back and reread the article again to see if "I" missed something from what Laura is commenting on!
    Laura, are you agreeing with Dr. Simmons article that homosexuality is "ok" and condoned by God?" Just trying to get it straight.

    Pastor Burnett, you know I had a dream the other night that I was at a church service here in Texas and the speaker was saying the same things that the homosexual agenda and it's advocates (such as Dr. Simmons)are spewing out these days. I stood up and began to object and try to tell the congregation as well as the Pastor and the speaker that homosexuality goes against God and the very nature that He created us in. But no one would listen to me and they ended up throwing me out of the church, all the while I'm begging and pleading for them to not give into this deceitful movement and not to listen the the "liar" that was in the pulpit.

    No one would listen to me in the dream. I woke up and could not go back to sleep. So I spent some time with my Heavenly Father and he just confirmed "from scripture" of how things are coming to fruition in this day and age, the false shepherds, satan's minister's appearing as angels of light, deception of the sheep and the false trinity of the antichrist that will come on the scene. Too many scriptures to post but I know you know exactly which ones I'm referring to, ending with the book of Revelations.

    I guess I said all that to say that we should not be suprised with the level and intensity of this homosexual agenda to blur the so called "gender" lines" not just in the secular realm but now more than ever in the church!" Every day we will begin to see more and more so called "church folks" acceptance of homosexuality as "normal" behavior and open arm acceptance within "christianity."

    I thank God that my eyes and ears are wide open to the truth, and per my dream, I only pray that I will continue walk in truth, declare God's word no matter what the consequence, and speak bodly against the homosexual church agenda as well as any other sins God abhors!

    Bless you Pastor Burnett and continue to contend for the faith!

    Godlysoldier.

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  26. Laura,

    I think my eyes are opened already. You said:Galatians 5 tells us that as soon as we add something to faith, we cancel the work of the Cross

    That's not in question and has nothing to do with what's being communicated. Freedom breeds responsibility. We are free to serve HIM whereas before we couldn't be cause of our sin...we're not free in the sense that we're like a bat out of (hades) that can do what we want to do and call it all grace...your notion is ridiculous.

    In marriage, both husband and wife are free aren't they? Then why is it that when one does a Tiger Woods that there is a problem? Was the problem with freedom? NO, they are still free. The problem is that freedom makes one responsible. That adds nothing to the grace extended.

    In addition Paul was speaking about being free from the "bondage of the law", not being free from right actions and righteousness. Your interpretation of this is nothing more than utter confusion and mixes personal freedoms with 'the Law' of of the OT for righteousness.

    You need a CHURCH. This sit on the fence and outside of the mainstream(whatever that is) is a violation of scripture.

    Hebrews 10:25~Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

    Every "island Christian" that I've known over 25 years or so is highly susceptible to false doctrine. This is not to say that churches are exepmt, but we need a fellowship of believers for strength and spiritual growth.

    Not only do disjointed Christians damage themselves by failing to receive a steady stream of committed spiritual food from an accountable body of believers, but they also damage others by depriving their gift from the people of GOd. I believe that's a sin...it certainly could be when there's no good or compelling reasons to not be a integral member or part of the church.

    Thanks for your respect and I appreciate that much, but this is what I see and why I'm here among many rebuking false doctrines such as the one Simmons espouses because those doctrines misuse and abuse the cross and make his grace of non-effect among them that buy into it.

    I'm certainly not one of them (the buyers that is) Thanks!

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  27. Godlysoldier said "Laura, are you agreeing with Dr. Simmons article that homosexuality is "ok" and condoned by God?" Just trying to get it straight."

    No, and I don't see where she said that either. Please point it out to me.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Pastor Harvey said "...tells us that as soon as we add something to faith, we cancel the work of the Cross.That's not in question and has nothing to do with what's being communicated."

    YOU are the one that picked and choose a verse out of context to make your point, and then went on to ADD to the verse what wasn't there, saying that those were damned to hell.

    You said "we're not free in the sense that we're like a bat out of (hades) that can do what we want to do and call it all grace...your notion is ridiculous."

    I never said that, but you would rather put words in my mouth than argue against the Word of God. Can't say I blame you, lol.

    You said "In addition Paul was speaking about being free from the "bondage of the law", not being free from right actions and righteousness. Your interpretation of this is nothing more than utter confusion and mixes personal freedoms with 'the Law' of of the OT for righteousness."

    That's only part of what of what Paul is speaking of. Do I have to explain this to you? Our old sin nature.

    When we believe in our heart the Gospel for our salvation, that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose again, then Christ reckons that old nature crucified. When we sin, that's the old nature of Adam. Now perhaps you believe you never sin, but I can tell you that I sure don't believe that about myself. As much as I try to surpress the old "Adam" he's still there, but God has declared me "justified," and it's just as if I never sinned, because old Adam is dead and gone so far as God is concerned.

    Now this new nature was given to me by God. The Holy Spirit lives inside me so that I can now have fellowship with God in spite of that old sin nature. The Holy Spirit is working on my spirit and is going to influence the new nature and the new nature in turn is going to control the acts of the physical body. Period.

    So you can twist scripture all you want so you are free to damn people to hell for behavior, but it's not what Jesus said as told by Paul.

    Galatians 5:17-18
    "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one with the other, so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18. But if ye be led of the Spirit ye are not under the law."

    It's comforting to me to know that Paul had the same struggle and was not holier-than-thou, and expressed it in Romans 7:

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


    "So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:15-25

    Jesus. It's ALL Jesus. Even what we take credit for.

    ReplyDelete
  29. @ Laura, if you can't see from the article that Pastor Burnett posted that Dr. Simmons is spewing out the same garbage as the so called "gay christians" in questioning solid biblical text and wanting to make homosexual "behavior" normal rather than saying it's sin, then I'm certainly not going to try to persuade you.

    Praise God that you believe that homosexual "behavior" is wrong and that you do not condone it.

    Godlysoldier

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  30. Laura you said "so if you're gay (not meaning you), just don't have sex! That's a no-brainer. I'm puzzled...what do you think she is saying that you're opposed to?

    I really dont understand what you are saying, can you clarify that please.

    If one is gay, just dont have sex?

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  31. In that question, I mean to say is that the end all, just refrain?

    ReplyDelete
  32. Paul said "If one is gay, just dont have sex?
    In that question, I mean to say is that the end all, just refrain?"


    As a born-again believer, yes...that's the start. It's something we can do by just not doing it. I have the choice moment by moment about how I behave. For instance, I wrote a very sharp post to Pastor Harvey a while ago, and toned it down to half, by following the Holy Spirit's promptings.

    If a gay person continues to have gay sex years after being born again, I would have to question their salvation experience.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Laura,

    You said:"YOU are the one that picked and choose a verse out of context to make your point, and then went on to ADD to the verse what wasn't there, saying that those were damned to hell."

    I haven't cherry-picked anything and obviously you have no clues as to what the scripture either means and or is saying...that's OK that's why were here and that's why I do what I do. Biblical illiteracy is a terrible thing and my job is to do my part in stamping it out.

    You said:"I never said that, but you would rather put words in my mouth than argue against the Word of God. Can't say I blame you, lol."

    Your attempt at Eddie Murphy falls on a stone faced audience. the word i use to describe what you're saying is EXACTLY what you're saying. You are certainly NOT using the word of God in any argument that I've heard so far.

    you said:"Now perhaps you believe you never sin, but I can tell you that I sure don't believe that about myself."

    Since this conversation isn't about what you believe about yourself it doesn't matter. The standard of the word isn't either of our personal failures or achievements. It's about the standard of Christ.

    You said:"As much as I try to surpress the old "Adam" he's still there, but God has declared me "justified," and it's just as if I never sinned, because old Adam is dead and gone so far as God is concerned."

    NOT true! As I said, replace homosexuality with murder. You're saying that you're justified by God in doing that because you're free right? What kind of ridiculous notion is that? Since you use the word cherry pick, insert any sin since you have an affinity and blindness toward the homosexual argument. Your notion is preposterous and neither are you justified by God in any way for sin. only through faith in Christ can you be justified and that comes with repentance and TURNING not continuing in sin. That's a plain and simple message of God.

    The early church was known for that piety. They weren't known for falling in and out of sin. They were known for the overcoming victory over sin in their lives. this is what the community saw and how even those who hated Christianity such as Pliny considered the early church.

    Once again your appeal here on receives a blank stare.

    You said:The Holy Spirit is working on my spirit and is going to influence the new nature and the new nature in turn is going to control the acts of the physical body. Period."

    Then why and how does the holy spirit control someone to sin more and continue in a homosexual lifestyle especially since sin 9including homosexuality) as clearly contrary to his word? Where is the "controlling of the physical acts of the body" when it is the HEART the unseen physical reality where sin is birthed?

    Once again, you miss the forest looking at the trees.

    You said:"So you can twist scripture all you want so you are free to damn people to hell for behavior, but it's not what Jesus said as told by Paul."

    I'm not twisting anything and you sound like you haven't had your medication. Your tone in this entire thread betrays you and does not speak well of you.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Laura 2,

    You said:"It's comforting to me to know that Paul had the same struggle and was not holier-than-thou, and expressed it in Romans 7:"

    Paul's issue in Romans 7 was explaining the condition of a man WITHOUT CHRIST and one not connected to his grace. Your whole superimposition is a make shift doctrine of lifeless faith, that causes people to continue in sin...WE REJECT the ridiculous notion of a sinful Christianity...Jesus nailed sin to the cross to give us freedom FROM not UNTO sin.

    Now, you have TWISTED scripture to fit your world view and it is untenable. Heb. 12:14 yet stands...

    "Follow peace with all men and holiness, without which NO MAN shall see the Lord"!

    We will all see him so you know that this indicates the ability to see him in freedom from the bondage of sin. Not talking sinless perfectionism, but we are talking overcoming power where sin doesn't reign or rule over us or our mortal bodies:

    Romans 6:12~LET NOT SIN therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof

    We were to practice righteousness now that we are saved not unrighteousness:

    2 Corinthians 7:1~Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God.

    A continued practice of sin is ungodly and against the plan will and spirit of God:

    1 John 3:8~He that COMMITTETH sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    Then you can make a choice. the choice is to be among the ungodly or the righteous. But watch out, the ungodly are destined for the same place as the sinner:

    1 Peter 4:18~And if the righteous SCARCELY be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

    So before you claim that I "twist" scripture at least know what some of the scriptures say and mean. It's very disingenuous to spread untruths and lies in hypocrisy. I not ashamed of living holy and overcoming sin in my life everyday. Am I perfect? By no means, but certainly NOTHING CLOSE to what I used to be. You to can live holy.

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Pastor Harvey said "You said:"YOU are the one that picked and choose a verse out of context to make your point, and then went on to ADD to the verse what wasn't there, saying that those were damned to hell."
    I haven't cherry-picked anything and obviously you have no clues as to what the scripture either means and or is saying...that's OK that's why were here and that's why I do what I do. Biblical illiteracy is a terrible thing and my job is to do my part in stamping it out.
    You said:"I never said that, but you would rather put words in my mouth than argue against the Word of God. Can't say I blame you, lol."
    Your attempt at Eddie Murphy falls on a stone faced audience. the word i use to describe what you're saying is EXACTLY what you're saying. You are certainly NOT using the word of God in any argument that I've heard so far.
    you said:"Now perhaps you believe you never sin, but I can tell you that I sure don't believe that about myself."
    Since this conversation isn't about what you believe about yourself it doesn't matter. The standard of the word isn't either of our personal failures or achievements. It's about the standard of Christ."


    All of that was opinion, and not backed in any way with scripture. Continuing...

    I said "As much as I try to surpress the old "Adam" he's still there, but God has declared me "justified," and it's just as if I never sinned, because old Adam is dead and gone so far as God is concerned."

    You said "NOT true!"
    Then take it up with God, because it's His Word against yours. You must be one of those people that look at Grace as "license", when we never needed a "license" to sin when we were unbelievers. That whole notion is so abstract to me. It comes from a very dark place, and I won't dwell there with you. As I said before, our new nature is NOT to have sex with the same gender, our new nature is NOT to murder, etc.

    The more you put focus on sin, the more legalistic you become, and the Cross is of no effect to you. You said it yourself way up there ^ somewhere, you can do nothing without Christ. Believe what you wrote.

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  36. Pastor Harvey said "Then why and how does the holy spirit control someone to sin more and continue in a homosexual lifestyle especially since sin 9including homosexuality) as clearly contrary to his word? Where is the "controlling of the physical acts of the body" when it is the HEART the unseen physical reality where sin is birthed?
    Once again, you miss the forest looking at the trees."


    I already answered that, but maybe you didn't see it since it was to Paul. I said "If a gay person continues to have gay sex years after being born again, I would have to question their salvation experience."

    You said "Your tone in this entire thread betrays you and does not speak well of you."

    Yes, I get a little upset when I hear a Pastor damn BELIEVERS to hell for their behavior. It's unscriptural, false doctrine, and should be called out on the carpet.

    "Revellings" is in that list you used to damn BELIEVERS. Do you serious believe that God wants to damn believers for having a good time? Use some common sense instead of using His Word like a hammer.

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  37. Pastor Harvey said "Paul's issue in Romans 7 was explaining the condition of a man WITHOUT CHRIST and one not connected to his grace. Your whole superimposition is a make shift doctrine of lifeless faith, that causes people to continue in sin...WE REJECT the ridiculous notion of a sinful Christianity"

    Oh, wow! Then this is some pretty messed up stuff, and you obviously are blind to the scripture. Who is "WE"? You and your denomiation? Because that's pretty messed up. Paul, a believer, was talking to believers, then all the sudden, he's not a believer when he speaks of himself? Who taught you that, and what justification do they have that Paul was playing make-believe.

    I can see how a denomination would do something like that, say he was spiritualizing or pretending. But then they are left with Romans 8:1, aren't they. Humm... what a tangled web they weave:

    "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."
    Romans 8:1

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  38. Here it is in context for others who might be reading. Let's be real clear. Paul has just said he does what he doesn't want to do...

    "So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    "So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

    "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

    "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    ~Romans 7:19-25 Romans 8:1-4

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  39. Pastor Harvey said "We will all see him so you know that this indicates the ability to see him in freedom from the bondage of sin. Not talking sinless perfectionism, but we are talking overcoming power where sin doesn't reign or rule over us or our mortal bodies:
    Romans 6:12~LET NOT SIN therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof"


    You're preaching to the choir here. I never said homosexuality wasn't a sin.

    You said "We were to practice righteousness now that we are saved not unrighteousness:
    2 Corinthians 7:1~Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God."


    Again, I said a homosexual should not have sex if they are born again. So we are still in agreement here.

    You said "A continued practice of sin is ungodly and against the plan will and spirit of God:1 John 3:8"

    Though 1 John 3:8 doesn't say that, we are still in agreement that "practicing" sin is a no-no. A true believer would not practice sin, though they will still sin at times.

    You then said "Then you can make a choice. the choice is to be among the ungodly or the righteous. But watch out, the ungodly are destined for the same place as the sinner:
    1 Peter 4:18~And if the righteous SCARCELY be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


    The "choice" we made was beliving the Gospel for salvation. We are made righteous through Christ, not on our own. You make it sound like we choose our salvation every day! Now you are damning believers again with a snippet of Peter? So I guess we should just throw Paul and the Gospel to the Gentiles out the window? Is the Cross of no effect to you?

    Here is the scripture you used in context:
    "If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, be happy; for the spirit of glory and of God rests upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

    "But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

    "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    "And if the righteous scarcely be saved (that's us), where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

    "Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator."
    ~1 Peter 4:14-19

    It's scripture about suffering for Christ, but you use it like a hammer to spread false doctrine to those too stupid or bored to go read it themselves! Are you...I don't know what you are right now. Are you only trying to win an argument?

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  40. Laura,

    Look i offer no more opinopn than you and certainly a LOT more word. You've continued to miscontextualize scripture and have no reference for your understanding. Just like in the last post, you agree with nothing until you come to the conclusion yourself...ie: you wast a lot of time because you don't know scripture and reject anythign other than your understanding many times.

    You said:Yes, I get a little upset when I hear a Pastor damn BELIEVERS to hell for their behavior.

    I get a little upset when people spot apostate doctrine like you claiming that sinners will go to heave and that's NOT the case. Heaven won't be full of sinners it will be full of those who have been redeemed, not witches like you claimed about Nightmare until you got in that conflict with him and certainly no homosexuals, no matter how much they say they believe or have confessed or gone through a confessional. If they haven't REPENTED and TURNED which is what repentance is they will be LOST!

    You said:Oh, wow! Then this is some pretty messed up stuff, and you obviously are blind to the scripture. Who is "WE"? You and your denomiation? Because that's pretty messed up.

    Name ONE PLACE in scripture that God called his people to independence. He has always called his people to be a PART of his body, niot dysfunctional as you are and a part of the army of one...I'd rather be a part of God's people anyday, with all theuir struggles than be a independent star in my own eyes as you are in yours. Like I said take the medication and combac to reality because you're not gettin' any better.

    You said:Paul, a believer, was talking to believers, then all the sudden, he's not a believer when he speaks of himself?

    You are FULL of apostate garbage is you think that Pail goes from saying not to sin and live in sin to abuse the grace og God in Chapter 6 to declare taht he was a sinner in chapter 7 then to say that it doens't matytter what he does because he's not condemned in chapter 8...YOU'R NUTS!

    that's teh most sophmoric rendition of biblical truth I ever heard and what's more it's unsupportable by all testimony regarding Paul himself. He was not counted by any writer as a sinner in the least bit. he was continuously hailed for his piety, righteousness and service.

    The whole discourse of Chapter 7, beginning at verse 7 of Romans is talking about the contrast of sin and unrighteousness under the law as compared to that in Christ Jesus. The point is that there was NO HOPE to overcome sin without Christ, and concludes with ahelp;ess state and condition before and without Christ. That's why the condemnation is rolled away in Chapter 8 for those which are IN Christ Jesus and who WALK NOT after the flesh this is action NOT mere faith. He's not talking about the condition of belief and sinning and vascilating back and forth...My goodness...I can see how you got messed up...this is what independents do, especially when they reject the church that Christ loves.

    It's obvious that you quote scripture but have no idea what it means when it opposes your primary presuppositions.

    By the way...don't try to "teach" my readers they know a little more than you give them credit for and are quite a bit more studied.

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  41. Laura,

    You said:You're preaching to the choir here. I never said homosexuality wasn't a sin.

    No, but you said that homosexual nature is acceptable with God as long as they don't have sex...I guess...you've been asked that directly more than a few times by everyone reading your confusion but skipped over the answer...then on top of that you have clearly pronounced that homosexual can be a believer so don't try these tricks with us...we see ya and been at these arguments for quite some time.

    Now here's an example of what a church can do for you that independent confusion such as your can't...you said:Though 1 John 3:8 doesn't say that, we are still in agreement that "practicing" sin is a no-no.

    This is in response to me saying that 1 John 3:8 SAYS that we shouldn't practice sin...

    you say no it doesn't say that as we see...however MOST people that are a part of Sunday school classes in most churches already know that the word COMMITTETH means one who CONTINUES in sin. This is a bible study rule 101 that even children know when it comes to studying the word of God for all that it's worth. You don't even need to know the Greek...all you need to identify is the "ETH" to understanding that it means a continuing action in almost EVERY scripture in the NT that you can name...you're a victim of self study with no accountability...Thanks for confirming so much...

    And guess what.. no matter what I want to do with an argument...I'm good to do so here as long as it can be supported scripturally...and ...It can and IS supported...

    So far all we've seen from you, is confused ramblings, appeals to uncontextualized scripture and proof that even the simplest thing learned in Sunday school lessons are rejected by you...they're not beyond you, but you reject truth to fit you and your doctrine...

    The church according to you offers us Jesus who approves of sin in the heart, just don't act on it....an Apostle, Paul, who is involved in sin struggle, but yet preaches that's he's saved anyhow and at the very least suffers from MPD because he teaches against what he does, and a Gospel that allows the most vile sinners to curse God with their life and still go to heaven...I REJECT that garbage Laura because it is APOSTATE ramblings and unbiblical.

    Thanks for adding a needed encouragement for me to spend more time addressing false doctrines such as the ones that you seem to espouse...at least until the light goes off and you talk yourself out of your positions.

    Later!

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  42. Pastor, that's very interesting, because the "great" preachers I have had time to read that preached on Romans 7 here agree with my understanding:
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/commentaries/

    Spurgeon even addresses your misunderstanding of the scripture, which you affirm when you say "Paul was not counted by any writer as a sinner in the least bit."

    REV. C.H. SPURGEON
    "O wretched man that I am I who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord."— Rom 7:24, 25

    "IF I chose to occupy your time with controversial matter, I might prove to a demonstration that the apostle Paul is here describing his own experience as a Christian. Some have affirmed that he is merely declaring what he was before conversion, and not what he was when he became the recipient of the grace of God. But such persons are evidently mistaken, and I believe wilfully mistaken; for any ample-hearted, candid mind, reading through this chapter, could not fall into such an error. It is Paul the apostle, who was not less than the very greatest of the apostles—it is Paul, the mighty servant of God, a very prince in Israel, one of the King's mighty men—it is Paul, the saint and the apostle, who here exclaims, "O wretched man that I am!"

    "Now, humble Christians are often the dupes of a very foolish error. They look up to certain advanced saints and able ministers, and they say, "Surely, such men as these do not suffer as I do; they do not contend with the same evil passions as those which vex and trouble me." Ah! if they knew the heard of those men, if they could read their inward conflicts, they would soon discover that the nearer a man lives to God, the more intensely has he to mourn over his own evil heart, and the more his Master honors him in his service, the more also doth the evil of the flesh vex and tease him day by day."

    http://tinyurl.com/yjrrsno

    So I guess Matthew Henry, Lewis Chafer, Charles Spurgeon and Chuck Smith (so far) all all "FULL of apostate garbage"? Wow! Guess it's pretty easy to make personal attacks on a girl in your blog because she disagrees with the way you are clubing believers over the head with scripture out of context.

    Yes, I believe your READERS know more, and I believe they see your error too. I was speaking of lurkers, or those that will come upon this discussion at a later date. I'll stand for the Word of God until my dying day.

    You have not come to the end of yourself yet. When that day comes, you will be a new creature. Until then, good luck trying to save yourself by reigning in your flesh to somehow be acceptable to God. It will never happen. Blessed be to God for Jesus Christ!

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  43. Pastor Harvey said "No, but you said that homosexual nature is acceptable with God as long as they don't have sex...I guess...you've been asked that directly more than a few times by everyone reading your confusion but skipped over the answer...then on top of that you have clearly pronounced that homosexual can be a believer so don't try these tricks with us...we see ya and been at these arguments for quite some time."

    Pastor, you're borderlining on the rediculous now, only looking to attack. To be clear, I said homosexuality (sex with your own gender) is a sin. Where is the trick?

    Are you saying that a homosexual has to clean up their life BEFORE they come to Christ? Is that what Christ taught? Wow. Double wow.

    You said "you say no it doesn't say that as we see...however MOST people that are a part of Sunday school classes in most churches already know that the word COMMITTETH means one who CONTINUES in sin. This is a bible study rule 101 that even children..."

    Did you not think that I would look it up? Is attacking me this important to you? Remember, YOU are the one that won't concede what I was willing to brush over.

    poieō

    ) to make

    a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.

    b) to be the authors of, the cause

    c) to make ready, to prepare

    d) to produce, bear, shoot forth

    e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self

    f) to make a thing out of something

    g) to (make i.e.) render one anything

    AV — do 357, make 113, bring forth 14, commit 9, cause 9, work 8, show 5, bear 4, keep 4, fulfil 3, deal 2, perform 2, not tr 3, misc 43, vr do 3

    No "practice", no "continue in".

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  44. BTW,

    I noticed another interpretive error Laura's little eisegesis of scripture is that she, like man, thinks that the "ungodly" and the "sinner" are the same...Once again, that's not the case.

    1 Peter 4:18~And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the UNGODLY and the sinner appear?

    Certainly sinners are ungodly, however there is a distinguishable difference between both categories...in fact the ungodly shall perish and not stand in the day of judgement. Why? Because they have rejected truth while claiming to know and hold truth dear. This is like Rev. Simmons and V. Gene Robinson.

    The sinner hasn't made a faith confession. they simply live in sin and are not inclined their heart to know truth whereas the ungodly are a class of pretenders and those who reinvent Jesus and the gospel to suit their sins.

    Jude 1:4~For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    These men "crept in". Crept in where? the CHURCH and teaching circles. What do they do? Deny Jesus and turn his grace into something that it wasn't meant to be by turing his grace into excess of the flesh...ie: anything goes..."you can do this and that and still be saved because Jesus loves you"...PLEASE!

    1 Timothy 1:9~Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for SINNERs, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

    The word of God reveals the ungodly actions and intents. This wasn't a mere restatement of the same category of persons. There is a nuanced different category of person. When you get finished with it you'll find that the ungodly are more closely related to those who are of a 'carnal mind'

    Romans 8:6-7~6-For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 7- Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    This was a fine line of demarcation that Paul was drawing between the righteous, those who walk after the Spirit and those who walk after the flesh, vain deceit, claiming salvation but are powerless to overcome. This is why they reject his spirit.

    Romans 8:13-14~"13-For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14-For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    The ungodly become ungodly by not allowing their "deeds" to die. The works of the flesh were to be put to death not exist and be called righteous because they exist in a new home. the nature was to be changed.

    To know this difference one has to seek and incline one's self to the message of the scripture instead of assuming or presupposing the message that sinner and ungodly are repetition of the same class of person. It's much more deep than that.

    This isn't a hard and fast rule as some require, but it is yet another one of those jewels that you learn in the body of believers that God calls us to be a part of. how do we know the difference...STUDY!

    ReplyDelete
  45. The commentaries of Robert Jamieson, A.R. Fausset & David Brown also agree with my understanding of Romans 7.

    http://tinyurl.com/ya35kgu

    I have yet to find anyone that believes as you are teaching here.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Laura,

    You stated So I guess Matthew Henry, Lewis Chafer, Charles Spurgeon and Chuck Smith (so far) all all "FULL of apostate garbage"?

    Yes, they are wrong on this issue. Their theology isn't gangbusters to begin with. This is a problem with some aspects of reform theology. They were (are) reformed theologians and in my opinion, inconsistent in matters of holiness and righteousness in many points and this is one. They offer no scriptural proof in support of their assertion. they simply make a statement and seek to validate that statement with other scripture and an appeal to human nature...similar to your argument.

    In order to understand 1 John 3:8, which looking to verse 7 begins a contrast to those who PRACTICE righteousness and those who PRACTICE unrighteousness. As the literalist that you are you believe that the answer is contained within a simple word study...that's only ONE aspect to help find context. The next is to look at the balance of the passage...what's being balanced? The answer: righteousness and sin. A contrast is being drawn. Is a common technique of NT writers. It's called merism where a contrast is drawn between opposites.

    In order for your conclusion to stand you would have to say that just like ONE sin makes a person "of the devil" that only ONE act of righteousness makes a person a of God. That's not the point that was being alluded to. Anyone can act righteously and do righteously but that doesn't save (at least according to your understanding now does it) Here's a better commentary on the issue:

    Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary

    "III. From the opposition between sin and a real union with or adhesion to the Lord Christ: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not, v. 6. To sin here is the same as to commit sin (v. 8, 9), and to commit sin is to practise sin. He that abideth in Christ continues not in the practice of sin. As vital union with the Lord Jesus broke the power of sin in the heart and nature, so continuance therein prevents the regency and prevalence thereof in the life and conduct. Or the negative expression here is put for the positive: He sinneth not, that is, he is obedient, he keeps the commandments (in sincerity, and in the ordinary course of life) and does those things that are pleasing in his sight, as is said v. 22. Those that abide in Christ abide in their covenant with him, and consequently watch against the sin that is contrary thereto. They abide in the potent light and knowledge of him; and therefore it may be concluded that he that sinneth (abideth in the predominant practice of sin) hath not seen him (hath not his mind impressed with a sound evangelical discerning of him), neither known him, hath no experimental acquaintance with him. Practical renunciation of sin is the great evidence of spiritual union with, continuance in, and saving knowledge of, the Lord Christ."

    ReplyDelete
  47. Laura,

    Here's more:

    V. From the relation between the sinner and the devil, and thereupon from the design and office of the Lord Christ against the devil. 1. From the relation between the sinner and the devil. As elsewhere sinners and saints are distinguished (though even saints are sinners largely so called), so to commit sin is here so to practise it as sinners do, that are distinguished from saints, to live under the power and dominion of it; and he who does so is of the devil; his sinful nature is inspired by, and agreeable and pleasing to, the devil; and he belongs to the party, and interest, and kingdom of the devil. It is he that is the author and patron of sin, and has been a practitioner of it, a tempter and instigator to it, even from the beginning of the world. And thereupon we must see how he argues. 2. From the design and office of the Lord Christ against the devil: For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil, v. 8. The devil has designed and endeavoured to ruin the work of God in this world. The Son of God has undertaken the holy war against him. He came into our world, and was manifested in our flesh, that he might conquer him and dissolve his works. Sin will he loosen and dissolve more and more, till he has quite destroyed it. Let not us serve or indulge what the Son of God came to destroy."

    As stated word studies are only ONE aspect of understanding context. You must look at the context and in this case the balance of the scripture. What is it contrasting or setting forth.

    Then there's the Geneva Study Bible

    8) An argument taken by contrast: the devil is the author of sin, and therefore he is that serves sin is of the devil, or is ruled by the inspiration of the devil: and if he is the devil's son, then is he not God's son: for the devil and God are so contrary to one another that the Son of God was sent to destroy the works of the devil. Therefore on the other side, whoever resists sin, is the son of God, being born again of his Spirit as of new seed, in so much, that by necessity he is now delivered from the slavery of sin.

    (i) Resembles the devil, as the child does the father, and is governed by his Spirit.

    (k) He says not sinned but sins for he does nothing else but sin.

    (l) From the very beginning of the world.



    So you did right with a word study, but it was only a half job...just enough to confuse you further. There's much more but you're a fish with no water and the message is clear.

    It's funny that your interpretation makes it even worse claiming that one sin makes a person a devil...how ridiculous is that? And yet you claim that I only want to 'win" an argument. I guess I have to be confronted with one to feel like I have to want to win first...so far I see very little in the way of argument.

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  48. Laura,

    You say you can't find anyone who agrees with me on Rom. 7. Well the church didn't leave and they certainly haven't all abandoned righteousness:

    Matthew Henry Concise:

    7:23-25 This passage does not represent the apostle as one that walked after the flesh, but as one that had it greatly at heart, not to walk so. And if there are those who abuse this passage, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction, yet serious Christians find cause to bless God for having thus provided for their support and comfort. We are not, because of the abuse of such as are blinded by their own lusts, to find fault with the scripture, or any just and well warranted interpretation of it. And no man who is not engaged in this conflict, can clearly understand the meaning of these words, or rightly judge concerning this painful conflict, which led the apostle to bemoan himself as a wretched man, constrained to what he abhorred. He could not deliver himself; and this made him the more fervently thank God for the way of salvation revealed through Jesus Christ, which promised him, in the end, deliverance from this enemy. So then, says he, I myself, with my mind, my prevailing judgement, affections, and purposes, as a regenerate man, by Divine grace, serve and obey the law of God; but with the flesh, the carnal nature, the remains of depravity, I serve the law of sin, which wars against the law of my mind. Not serving it so as to live in it, or to allow it, but as unable to free himself from it, even in his very best state, and needing to look for help and deliverance out of himself. It is evident that he thanks God for Christ, as our deliverer, as our atonement and righteousness in himself, and not because of any holiness wrought in us. He knew of no such salvation, and disowned any such title to it. He was willing to act in all points agreeable to the law, in his mind and conscience, but was hindered by indwelling sin, and never attained the perfection the law requires. What can be deliverance for a man always sinful, but the free grace of God, as offered in Christ Jesus? The power of Divine grace, and of the Holy Spirit, could root out sin from our hearts even in this life, if Divine wisdom had not otherwise thought fit. But it is suffered, that Christians might constantly feel, and understand thoroughly, the wretched state from which Divine grace saves them; might be kept from trusting in themselves; and might ever hold all their consolation and hope, from the rich and free grace of God in Christ.

    This further handled HERE and the full story is told allowing us to see how the reformed tradition established the though that Paul was talking about himself and that's there are a wealth of scholars who hold my position and variations of it.

    Part of that article says this:

    "In spite of Barth's monumental influence in the decades following the publication of his commentary, the view most dominant among scholars today follows Kümmel in saying that Paul is not describing his Christian experience or his pre- Christian experience, but rather that he is describing the experience of "the unregenerate" as only an informed Christian can see it. This position is borne out in generally similar ways in works by D.M. Lloyd-Jones, Ernst Käsemann, Gerd Theissen and Paul Achtemeier,all of whom reject the traditional view that Paul is describing himself. "

    So I think I'm in good company with my view of scripture and others.

    Thanks.

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  49. Boy, I'll tell you what, I always get additional material to write and prach on and this is one of them...a sinful Paul...what a crock!

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  50. Godlysoldier & Gcmwatch,

    No wonder Paul's words regarding homosexuality don't mean anything to the homosexuals. They assume that Paul was a practicing sinner like them...That's GARBAGE promoted by some within the church and should be thoroughly rejected. but that does open one's eyes to the struggle and issue.

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  51. I guess I'm not alone even among people I know too...

    Critics may say that in Romans 7, Paul seems to be confused about his sin. He claims elsewhere to have a new nature, but Romans 7 doesn't seem to reflect that when he speaks about himself as still committing sin as part of his nature.

    The problem is that this criticism is reading Romans 7:14ff as though Paul were describing his own present experience. What Paul is actually doing here is engaging in a typical Greco-Roman rhetorical practice (also found in Jewish literature, including the Qumran Psalms) in which the personal "I" and the present tense is used as a literary convention.

    Where the personal "I" is combined with the present tense, the author is utilizing a practice called "speech in character" to represent a universal experience. Here, Paul is bringing out the universal experience of those who do not know Christ (and that did include him, at one time) and their struggle with moral law and sin. He is not giving a biographical account of his present experience as our objection argues.


    -JPH ~ http://www.tektonics.org/qt/rom7.html

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  52. Lol, Matthew Henry agrees with me, but you can't see that?

    To quote Paul "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Not "o wretched man that I WAS".

    The words are clear, but don't suit your agenda, so you think you can simply change their meaning. I don't care what tag you want to put on the common sense meaning of the chapter like "Reformed theology", as if labeling the clear meaning makes it less the truth.

    I'll be leaving this blog now. You are teaching a different gospel, one based on your own efforts, and it's crystal clear to me the Cross is of no effect to you. You are in my prayers.

    ReplyDelete
  53. As a Monergist myself I would agree that although we still sin it can in no way separate us from being saved.

    However, I disagree with the "hyper-Calvinist” view that basically gives one a license to sin. If one claims they are saved and shows no genuine fruits of the spirit then they are probably not saved.

    The Moderate or Low Calvinist view of which I maintain is that as a "babe in Christ" those people who are saved will stumble into sin more readily.

    However, by growing in grace over time the old nature diminishes and we become more Christ-like. The babe in Christ may fall back into sin but it will be only for a season. Someone who has been saved for a period of years should exhibit a notable change wrought by the spirit of God within that person.

    If no real change is visible I would argue that the person was never saved.

    Stay away from the extremes of Hyper-Calvinism and Pelagianism.


    Kyle

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  54. I agree, Kyle.

    For Pastor Harvey, and I'm done here:

    "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    "For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

    "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    ~Romans 5:1-2, 6-8


    "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
    ~Galatians 1:6-9

    Repent of this perversion of the gospel. Realize you can add nothing to His finished work of the Cross. Don't let Jesus' death for you be in vain. When you stand before Him, you will know exactly how wrong you were, but then, it will be too late.

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  55. Laura,

    The only one here teaching a different gospel is YOU...

    According to you...an practicing sinner (who may love their sins) is saved. For you Paul suffered MPD and was the worst hypocrite of scripture. In one place he claims that every thought had to be captive to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4) but yet struggling to to be saved in the very least bit himself (Rom. 7:25)...this is STUPIDITY to say the least. For YOU the cross is powerless and ineffective to stop a sinner from sinning, a smoker from smoking and obviously a murder from murdering...for YOU the cross is only a window-dress and a place where sins don't cease, they merely change names and gain the approval of God...for YOU a homosexual yet remains a homosexual just doesn't have sex...same has to go with every other sin...for YOU the most vile and contemptuous person can hate God all their life die shaking their fist in the face of God (even practicing witchcraft) and still be SAVED...Yet you CLAIM that you're preaching the Gospel of Christ....THAT'S GARBAGE, like the rest of your retort! Heaven become hell to a sinner, righteousness is walked out in the life of the believer daily but for you none of that matters...

    YET, to show how further inconsistent you are, you beat down Haiti for their voodoo and side with idiots like Robertson, until you have some grand epiphany that God didn't really do that to them???...

    Persons with views like yous contribute to the rise of modern atheism with extremes and literalist interpretations claiming, "I'm right anyhow" and do the most damage to the cause of Christianity by teaching not only inconsistent doctrine, but ridiculous notions that are totally and abjectly inconsistent with scripture...Then you offer emotional retorts in support of your position???

    In this I have PROVEN that the scripture does not support your view. You agree with Kyle with a failure to realize that the position you espouse is a hyper-Calvinist view...(WOW!)

    So thanks for being DONE here as confusion like your needs to spread no further.

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  56. "What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer"

    Take notice of the very important question where Paul states, "Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"

    He didn't say we will never commit sin, however he is instead asking the question shall we go on, continue, pursue, maintain, follow, etc, in sin?

    The answer is quite clear, "By no means!"

    Now with that being said we need to understand that once we are saved and have a right relationship with God we are by faith by the power of the Holy Spirit to walk with God in righteousness.

    Does that mean we still sin? Of course! Does that mean we have a license to sin? No, God forbid!

    The hyper-Calvinist view that God no longer detests your sin activity is refuted by God's response to David. David's blatant premeditated murder resulted in God's chastening being meted out by killing David's son.

    Therefore, if you are saved and fall back into sin God in no way approves of your behavior. Consequently like David if you are saved God will chasten you out of love to set you back on the right path.

    “Shall not the judge of all the earth deal justly?”

    If one is a hyper-Calvinist who believes in reckless sin without having any detrimental affect on their walk with the Lord is more than likely not saved at all.

    If you are a hyper-Calvinist who is willfully engaging in sin you are no better then the Sadducees and Pharisees who had an outward appearance of holiness even to the point of claiming, like them, a right standing with God via birth right. However, in this case the Pharisee claimed a physical birth right where the Hyper-Calvinist claims a spiritual birth right (born again) with both having:

    A: An outward appearance of holiness
    B: Claims of right standing by a birthright (Physical -Pharisee Spiritual -Hyper-Calvinist)
    C: Continuance of sin having no bearing on their standing before God.

    Like the Pharisees the Hyper-Calvinist in this case claims that their birth right gave them a right relationship with God all the while being dead inside.

    Hyper-Calvinism is a very dangerous doctrine that is more akin to the very people Jesus rebuked.

    Kyle

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  57. Thanks Kyle for making that crystal clear! Great commentary!

    Thanks for pointing out the difference between those of us who commit a sin and those who continue to practice and live in sin. Thers' a BIG difference.

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  58. In terms of sin and in this case Homosexuality the theological extremes openly promote sin with no consequence.

    The Pelagian on one hand ultimately leads to Universalism in which the result would be:

    No matter what sin you engage in ALL will be granted entrance into heaven.

    Likewise the other extreme in this case Hyper-Calvinism leads to the same conclusions with the only difference being:

    No matter what sin you engage in you (elect) will be granted entrance into heaven.

    Ultimately the same outcome with one being all inclusive and the other being confined to a group.

    In terms of Homosexuality this gives false hope by offering two heretical theologies which validate their behavior and ultimately damn them to hell.



    As a side note you will find that most “classic Arminians” and “low Calvinist” agree on much and the points of contention are the points of view of direction in terms of the salvific process.


    The extreme of Pelagian/Universalism states that God loves ALL irrespective of what they do and irrespective of repentance.

    This is a mockery of God's Holy character.

    This view also means that man has "total" free will in everything that he chooses. We know from that biblical perspective that mans will is not 100% free in totality. God intervenes throughout history on many occasions as seen throughout the bible.

    By claiming “total” free will this theology denies the very omniscience, omnipotent, omnipresent characteristics of God.


    The hyper-Calvinist extreme makes God the author of evil.

    This is outright blasphemy!

    This view also means man has no or virtually no will and is more akin to a robot in that everything is planned down to the smallest minutia regarding what is done in your life.

    It also makes God the ultimate respecter of persons.

    God has no respect for a “group” of people. John the Baptist called the “so-called” select group of that day, “ a brood of vipers”.


    Kyle

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  59. This is puzzling as to really see what the disagreement really is.

    Is it that if one says we need to be renewed in our mind and just not refrain, is that then seen as adding works to grace.

    Truly, a person who is saved is no longer "gay". A born again person is no longer as sinner, even though the flesh still wars with the spirit.

    What we want to do as Christians is to get our minds renewed so we can walk worthy of His calling.

    It just seems very simple.

    Christians are not just sinners saved by grace we are sinners that have been transformed by faith through grace by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    We are regenerated, renewed, reborn.

    Sinners can refrain from certain sins and many do but they will go to hell same way. I believe Christ is calling us to a higher standard of holiness.

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  60. Kyle,

    You said:The hyper-Calvinist extreme makes God the author of evil...This is outright blasphemy!

    THANK YOU!

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  61. Harvey, I find you to be an dishonest person based on the lies you have written. No matter - I'm quite used to it, albeit from atheist, not the supposed born-agains. When you remove my post here, it will only solidify my opinion of your character.

    According to you...an practicing sinner (who may love their sins) is saved. Not true. I was ABUNDANTLY clear that I would question the salvation experience of a homosexual still engaging in sex years after being born again. You lied here.

    For you Paul suffered MPD and was the worst hypocrite of scripture. Another lie. Those are YOUR words, not mine.

    In one place he claims that every thought had to be captive to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4) but yet struggling to to be saved in the very least bit himself (Rom. 7:25)...this is STUPIDITY to say the least. Not a lie, just you grappling with your misunderstanding of the COMMON SENSE interpretation as well as COMMON interpretation of Romans 7. You may come around, or not. If not, you will miss the Cross and Grace.

    For YOU the cross is powerless and ineffective to stop a sinner from sinning, a smoker from smoking and obviously a murder from murdering... A TOTAL lie! As far as I can see, only said to demonize the one calling out your false teaching of salvation by works.

    for YOU the cross is only a window-dress and a place where sins don't cease, they merely change names and gain the approval of God... Window dress? Blasphemy, and YOUR words! Gain God's approval - A TOTAL lie meant to demonize the one calling out your false teaching of salvation by works.

    for YOU a homosexual yet remains a homosexual just doesn't have sex... A TOTAL lie! Read up there - stop having sex is the FIRST thing to do. Only Christ can change them.

    same has to go with every other sin...for YOU the most vile and contemptuous person can hate God all their life die shaking their fist in the face of God (even practicing witchcraft) and still be SAVED... More demonizing of the one calling you out for false teaching. I would question the salvation experience of anyone that claimed they had ever been born again and spent their lives hating God and/or practicing witchcraft. Let me educate YOU today. Do you know the ONE way you can lose your salvation? Anathema!

    Yet you CLAIM that you're preaching the Gospel of Christ....THAT'S GARBAGE, like the rest of your retort! Heaven become hell to a sinner, righteousness is walked out in the life of the believer daily but for you none of that matters...
    It is Paul's Gospel to the Gentiles that you will be judged by (Romans 2:16), so you better start with some fresh STUDY!

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  62. "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
    ~Galatians 1:6-9

    "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

    For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
    ~Galatians 2:16-21
    Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? ~Galatians 3:3

    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.
    ~1 Corinthians 15:1-4

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  63. Paul,

    That's what I'm saying...to say that the christian has no responsibility and or penalty for NOT responding to the grace of God is sacrilegious.

    We have a duty IF we are truly saved and that duty is performed THROUGH and IN Christ not merely because we think it...he gives us strength. These that sit on the fringes miss the whole concept and now we've got these teachers claiming that people who are practicing all kinds of sins receive the same heavenly reward that those who have sacrificed all do. That's a silly notion and then to say that teaching the truth against such perverted doctrine is heresy only proves what we know...this is the time when people hate truth...if they don't hate it, many certainly don't and won't receive it.

    This is Simmons problem and V. Gene Robinson's issue, they create another gospel, another Paul, another Jesus to suit their needs.

    Thank God that God has a remnant that yet stand on guard against these type of perversions.

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  64. Look Laura, I'll remove your posts and that has nothing to do with my character, it has everythign to do with YOUR LIES!

    I told you get back on your meds and don't try to chastize me it doesn't work on my blog...so your're here now and I've allowed worse so I'll entertain you for now...but as you can see someof us already know the truth and we're not falling for the JUNK you've collected and are sellin'!

    ReplyDelete
  65. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    ~1 John 1:8

    This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
    ~1 Timothy 1:15

    O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
    Romans 7:24-25

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  66. I knew you would remove the post. You can't take being exposed as a controller and false teacher. Thanks...that was all the confirmation I needed.

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  67. Laura,

    What kind of corn flake answer is this???:

    I was ABUNDANTLY clear that I would question the salvation experience of a homosexual still engaging in sex years after being born again. You lied here.

    What does that mean? One year or twelve years/ Where's teh standard and where's is that in the bible? Is that an objective guideline or opinion and where can that be found? who manages that? No, that's just some more CRAP that Laura thinks and lays down as if we should accpet it simply because she has such a preeminent view of scripture.

    then you said this:Do you know the ONE way you can lose your salvation? Anathema!

    Yes and absolutely, you can WALK AWAY FROM GRACE!!! God drags and atheist kicking and screaming into heaven because why? "because God knows best asnd he loves him"...Yea righ...what they tell you readily is that heaven is an atheist's hell...they don't want Jesus and those that have left obviously didn't want what there were ENLIGHTENED with.

    Heb. 6:4-5~"4-For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5-And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6-If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

    You went from a radical atheist to a radical Christian who is biblically illiterate. That's traggic i though you would have known better...so far as works righteousness you have no clue and can't interpret the bible yet alone what I teach...

    As you said, your're DONE here...don't disturb our peace any longer.

    Thanks!

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  68. I just wonder how biblically illiterate that you have to be to go to Romans 2:16 bypassing Romans 2 5-8 which says this:

    "5-But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6-Who will render to every man according to his deeds:"

    What is that? is that works salvation? every man is judged by god according to his DEEDS...can't be the righteous, how do they have a hard and impetent heart? then pay no attention to the very next verse where Paul further states:

    "7-To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8-But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath"

    Indignation and wrath prepared for those who don't LIVE right according to his word...Like I said you can't even understand the truth of scripture...we'll be judged by the word of God as stated in revelation when the books were opened. Paul's words will be part of that as it is the word of God also, but not the only part of it.

    I thank God for this post, because I don't need any extremists and hyper Calvinists spouting' off false teachings such as these around here.

    Once again thanks for the enlightenment Kyle!

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  69. Maybe you need to brush up on what your denomunation professes to believe:

    Salvation deals with the application of the work of redemption to the sinner with his restoration to divine favor and communion with God. This redemptive operation of the Holy Ghost upon sinners is brought about by repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ which brings conversion, faith, justification regeneration, sanctification, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Repentance is the work of God, which results in a change of mind in respect to man's relationship to God. (St. Matthew 3:1-2, 4:17; Acts 20:21). Faith is a certain conviction wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, as to the truth of the Gospel and a heart trust in the promises of God in Christ (Romans 1:17, 3:28; St. Matthew 9:22; Acts 26:18). Conversion is that act of God whereby He causes the regenerated sinner, in his conscious life, to turn to Him in repentance and faith (II Kings 5:15; II Chronicles 33:12-13; St. Luke 19:8, 9; Acts 8:30). Regeneration is that act of God by which the principle of the new life is implanted in man, and the governing disposition of soul is made holy and the first holy exercise of this new disposition is secured. Sanctification is that gracious and continuous operation of the Holy Ghost, by which He delivers the justified sinner from the pollution of sin, renews his whole nature in the image of God and enables him to perform good works (Romans 6:4;5:6; Colossians 2:12; 3:1).

    http://www.cogic.com/doctrine.html

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  70. What the heck??? Laura you have no CLUE!!! that's for sure.

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  71. but thank you for pointing that out accurately...well it couldn't help but be accurate because none of them were YOUR words!

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  72. Took you 10 minutes to figure out that was your Church's belief? LOL
    See ya!

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  73. See this is what happens when homosexuality is challenged...people come in with stange ideas and try to sidetrack the whole conversation.

    The fact still is that there is no such thing as a homosexual christian. those two things don't even go together. A total oximoron. Secondly there is no scripture that allows the practice of homosexuality even for a minute.

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  74. Laura,

    Took you 10 minutes to figure out that was your Church's belief?

    No I've known that for 30 years...you just don't have a clue as to what ANY of it means.

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  75. Pastor Harvey, I understand what you are saying.

    Laura, so you are saying that Pastor Harvey is adding works to grace? if so what part of this article says that.

    I just need clarification.

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  76. Hi Paul. Thanks for asking. It's all up there ^, but let me put it in one place here.

    Harvey said "Is it ok for a married man to obsess on other women just not do the act? Jesus pointed out and said NO, he is guilty."

    I said "Aren't you confusing guilt of the sinner with condemnation of the unbeliever? Jesus was showing what sin is to a group of Jews that thought they were perfect for following the law. Christ pointed out that looking and lusting is just the same, and He nailed both to the Cross. You know this, so why am I explaining it?"

    and then I added Harvey's comment from the blog where he said what is true:

    From your post: Romans 12:2 ~ "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
    Who can do this? Only Christ!


    Maybe he didn't know this. Maybe he copied his blog from someone else, because he sure changed his tune with the next post:

    He then used Galatians 5 as "proof".
    So let's look at how he came to add to the Word of God, and so doing, damned believers to hell:

    16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

    17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Stop right here...Where did Paul tell us in the past? 1 Corinthians 6:9-12, so let's look:

    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
    ~1 Corinthians 6:9-12

    Paul made the destinction here that the unrighteous unbelieving (unwashed) shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Continuing on in Galatians:

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    Galatians 5:16-25

    He said of Galatians 5: "They which do such things does not offer a class distinction between those that are saved or not...in fact the whole verse is written letting them that are "saved" know their spiritual position and place.
    Failure to deal with it does not lead to a lesser blessing in the kingdom, it leads to separation from God and hell.


    To which I said "You have used the very chapter (Galatians 5) that explains our liberty to put us in chains again!

    Galatians 5 tells us that as soon as we add something to faith, we cancel the work of the Cross. I'm afraid millions, upon millions of church-going people are going to miss Heaven's glory because that's exactly what they've done."

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  77. So when Harvey said "Who can do this? Only Christ!", those must have been the words of someone else, because he just damned BELIEVERS to hell for not "dealing with" what only Christ can do.

    1. He changed the Word of God to including those already washed in the Blood of Christ.

    2. He added human effort (works) to what only Christ can do, thereby making the Cross of no effect.

    3. He damned BELIEVERS to hell.

    Hope that clears it up!

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  78. Laura,

    You said:Galatians 5 tells us that as soon as we add something to faith, we cancel the work of the Cross. I'm afraid millions, upon millions of church-going people are going to miss Heaven's glory because that's exactly what they've done."


    You have no concept or clue as to what you're saying...Get this ONCE and for all...there is no such thing as an UNRIGHTEOUS BELIEVER...There is NO believer who lives ungodly and unrighteously before God. If they say so, no matter what their confession or claim to faith they are ON THEIR WAY TO HELL!

    God doesn't partially save...God saves! Your words are fruitless and futile. Kyle pointed out your error. You follow a hyper-Calvinist path and your understanding regarding this is bogus.

    Said supposed believers go to hell not because of faults...they go because they refuse to leave their sins! Any so called believer doing what Paul outlines in Galations 5 and even worse things GO TO HELL! Paul said those who do such shall not inherit the Kingdom Your twisted theology is not welcomed nor hailed as truth on this site under any circumstance and is not supportable scripturally in the least.

    The mercy of God is extended by his compassion to those who struggle to overcome sin, however there's a big difference between those who struggle with repented of sins and those that simply continue to commit and do their sins assuming that they bought a great big insurance policy through confession, and what they say is an exercise of faith. so they aren't worried about what they do with their bodies...That's HERESY!.

    You assume inclusion for confession of faith with no repentance and or turning or resultant actions and IT DOESN'T WORK...it isn't biblical and it has NEVER been the true gospel of Christ or message of salvation at any time in biblical history...From 2 Chronicles 7:14 prescribing repentance from dead works to Joel 2 crying repentance to Hosea 10:12 crying repentance to John crying repentance in the wilderness, to Jesus crying repentance until Peter crying repentance Acts 2:38 until Paul crying repentance to all that would hear, ONLY them that forsook their sins turning to the Lord (not in A-B order)are saved...

    I don't care what is claimed to be confessed or what one says they have faith in...The proof of forsaking sins, and saving faith is in the overcoming power of Christ in the life...they go hand in hand...as I said in the post on works and faith...THEY ARE INSEPERABLE! So your complete premise is rejected as it has always been here by me. This is nothing new.

    Now I've just about had enough of you. Partially because you keep repeating the same lame argument that has been rejected and refuted adequately many posts back long ago...Your arguments haven't changed nor gotten any better and I've said nothing new and or different.

    I'll let you slide this last time because you were responding to Paul's request, but NO MORE...I'm sickened by your discourse and the lie you place upon scripture...

    Now, I better understand Nightmare's problem with you although he was wrong about his biblical assertions he was right about your short-sightedness. Remember him don't you? He was the confessing and practicing idolatrous, atheist, witch that you said was saved because he formerly confessed Christ...your declarations were based on your TWISTED understanding of scripture...Just like you were wrong then, you're wrong now.

    So before you try to accuse me of preaching another gospel you need to find out what the true Gospel is...It is POWER unto salvation and the works of the believer DO FOLLOW them...You better believe that NO WITCH, atheist nor idolater will be in heaven!

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  79. Harvey, I don't believe any witch, atheist or idolater will be in heaven either.

    I backed every accusation against your false teaching with scripture. Your readers can decide for themselves what is truth. I trust you won't remove the post, and I have no reason to visit your blog again.

    "Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you.
    Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
    If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

    But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ— the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
    ~Philippians 3:1-9

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  80. Pastor Burnett,

    Block Laura for the sake of everyone here.

    Did you notice in the last post she identified you as "harvey" as if to denigrate your Pastor title?

    I wouldn't continue with her back and forth. In fact I would suggest this individual has personal issues that need prayer.

    Cut this one off Brother.

    In Christ,

    Kyle

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  81. Kyle,

    As I believe our friend Melvin says from time to time,

    "So shall it be done! Swooosh!"

    Of course he adds a lot more flare and style than I do-LOL!

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  82. Laura, what I got from this article is what the bible encourages growth and maturity and it seems that that comes from the mind is being renewed, not that you shouldnt refrain though.

    A homosexual may be home by himself and not necessarily faced with the temptation of being with someone of the same sex but the thoughts may come to him. Now since he is not faced with the decision to refrain at that point should he continue to think about it? I think not, many scriptures posted tell us that we cast that thought down.


    I think this passage explains what Pastor Harvey is talking about.

    Ephesians 4
    17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their MIND,

    18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

    20But ye have not so learned Christ;

    21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

    22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

    23And be RENEWED in the spirit of your MIND;

    24And that ye put on the NEW MAN, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

    26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

    27Neither give place to the devil....


    Both renewal and restraint are necessary as Children of God, that though has nothing to do with adding works to grace. Just how you expect a baby to grow and mature the same way we should grow in Christ, that should be natural and will if we feed on His Word.

    1 Peter 2:2 (King James Version)
    2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:


    Blessings!!

    Thanks Pastor Harvey, great stuff!!

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  83. The job of the gay community is not to deal with extremists( the black church) who would castigate us or put us on an island and drop an H-bomb on us. The fact of the matter is that there is a small percentage of people in America who understand the true nature of the homosexual community. There is another small percentage who will never understand us ( like Supt. Burnett who believes in a Bible that deems him a descendant of Ham: a slave).

    Our job is not to get those people who dislike us to love us. Nor was our aim in the civil rights movement to get prejudiced white people to love us. Our aim was to try to create the kind of America, legislatively, morally, and psychologically, such that even though some whites continued to hate us, they could not openly manifest that hate. That's our job today: to control the extent to which people can publicly manifest antigay sentiment.

    Therefore, you Negros can pontificate till judgement day, but this Black, gay man will lobby, vote, influence, and agitate for equality. Hey, you hetero Negros cannot make marriage work( marriage rate has plummeted from 70% to 30% currently) so let us Black gays set the example for education achievement, wealth building, family dynamics, child rearing, marriage bliss, love, sex, and overall successful living. You know I'm telling the truth!

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  84. Thanks AUSFAHRT.

    In response to your commentary, and since thought it was worth more than a simple response in this section,I have written a post addressing your assertions. You'll find it HERE.

    I encourage all Christians to chime in on this. As you can see homosexuals aren't reluctant to respond even if they are totally wrong. So at least we should tell the truth.

    Thanks.

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  85. I believe people are born homosexual. It's no way to explain someone feeling that way from a young age. One problem I have with the black church in particular is that they tend to ignore science, even if the evidence is obvious.

    Genes and genetics play a big part in human behavior, whether we want to admit it or not. I don't think homosexuality is natural, but neither do I think siamese twins are natural, but they do occur.

    Nature trumps nurture everytime. That is why someone can grow up in church and still be gay. Environment can't defeat genetics. Having said that, until 1973, homosexuality was declared a mental illness. So, i think people struggling with that behavior should seek professional help for it, just like a surgeon would perform an operation to seperate siamese twins.

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  86. FM,

    The problem is that even if that's the case, it in no way justifies homosexuality neither does it make it normative.

    Unfortunately the parallels don't positively impact the case, because I don't believe homosexuality is a birth defect, but one could easily and readily say, like you said, since a person was born Siamese twins or some other identifiable birth defect, that those conditions are normal. We know they aren't "normal" and that they are "defects" partially based on genes, but no matter how a person is "born" doesn't mean that's how they are supposed to be.

    What we have is an assumption that "birth" equates to how one is "supposed to be" with certain exceptions as I stated.

    Yet the scripture states that were were "shaped" in iniquity and "conceived" in sin indicating that all of us are born with something that was not part of the original design. We identify it as sin and the sin nature.

    Now, Psalms 53:3 says this "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

    Now the "wicked" (Rasha), or morally wrong or actively bad person is a Stranger" (Zuwr) from the womb. So although one can become a product of environment or circumstances, that's not always the case. Some are like they are because of the effects of sin in the genome and in the world.

    The answer in every case is JESUS and his message of liberation and experiencing him.

    Was Thomas a doubter from teh womb or did he only doubt as a result of life's experience? One thing is for sure, his encounter with the resurrected Jesus changed all that...John 20:28.

    Now, we have to be careful because sin has no creative power. it is an element that perverts or corrupts what is uncorrupted. However, since sin has been added to the genome it is indistinguishable from our standpoint.

    If that is the case, then there is no possible way that God DID NOT deal with sexual orientation. He dealt with it in dealing with what he called the "heart" repeatedly.

    At the end of the day, a homosexual or lesbian is left without an excuse for their sin, just like an adulterer or adulteress has none for theirs. Because we all MUST be born AGAIN John 3:3

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  87. I didn't want to say it was normal, but I did say that some people could be born that way. For example, I have scoliosis, which is a curved spine. The normal way is for my spine to be straight. Just because someone is born homosexual doesnt make it normal, but it cab happen.

    I think saying someone chooses to be that way is oversimplifying it. I don't think anyone chooses to be that way (why would they).

    I think it is a disorder they need treatment for. However in todays politically correct world it isn't good to say homosexuality is a disorder which would make it hard to get treatment for.

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  88. FM,

    For the most part I certainly agree with what your asserting. But this is where we differ to an extent:

    You said:"I think saying someone chooses to be that way is oversimplifying it."

    I don't think so, because ALL sex is a choice. So while one may not choose to love a certain person, the actions that follow are a choice. In this case the actions that follow are out of order. What some might call a confusion of action. Instead of having a love that is a care and concern, it becomes mixed with a sexual attraction.

    You question:"I don't think anyone chooses to be that way (why would they)."

    Because, in my opinion, that's the nature of sin. It corrupts and contaminates.

    So loving a person is NOT wrong, loving them out of the order of God is. This is why we would call it a perversion.

    So, while I agree that a person could be born that way, it's more difficult for me to think of it as some sort of defect or abnormality similar to a birth defect. I don't think homosexuals are defective, I simply believe that the proper order, or proper display of their affections are misplaced and that because of sin, whether birthed that way or not.

    I think the church looses nothing with the acknowledgement that certain individuals are born with certain tendencies and propensities, and even certain defects that cause them to sin in certain ways. In my opinion this doesn't take away from God as he is not the author of sin and corruption.

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  89. I know I'm a few years late, but I just wanted to say that this is the most interesting (and the most civil discussion) of homosexuality in the bible, in our society, and how it relates to Christianity that I have ever run across on The Internet. I just wanted to thank the owner of this blog for posting the article and thanks to everyone here who has made comments :)

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    Replies
    1. Thank you and you are NEVER too late. Little did I know that this issue is blazing as it is right now. Stay tuned, got something coming later today.

      Blessed!!!!

      Delete

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