Thursday, October 29, 2009

Youth S.O.S!

We Must Rescue Our Youth

"We're not animals. We're not savages.
We're students and we're trying to achieve,"
Maritza Morales
Richmond High student

Richmond High School in Richmond, CA. has become the center of attention over the last week but not in the way that either it's citizens or the rest of America would have liked.

One would not have thought that a school Homecoming celebration would take on a criminal tone and be froth with what could be considered the most animalistic and degrading treatment of a fellow human being in recent times.

According to CNN.com, It was at a school homecoming that a 15 year old girl had her human dignity stripped away from her while as many as 20 or more people looked on with amusement. This was heinous crime that needs our attention as the church and as a community of believers. It is our time to rise and go back to what we know that works and the only thing that will deliver our youth and families from the whims of human moral relativism and the dank and dark depths and capacity of sin found within the human heart without Christ as savior.

Because of this I have enclosed a special message that I hope will encourage you to be and further become a part of the solution to this degeneration and decay of human value that is all too prevalent and observable within our communities. Please be encouraged: (Click on POSTS at the bottom of the player and then click the message to play it in its entirity)

****The Special Broadcast Program Can Now Be Heard HERE ****

So far there have been approximately 5 arrests and a host of individuals identified that were simply perverted , spineless onlookers who found pleasure in the degradation of a fellow human being.  Video and tape sales won't help us past this one...we don't need personality, we need Jesus! Let us engage in prayer for this young lady who from all accounts was a good person and regardless of that was a person who certainly did not deserve to be demoralized and dehumanized in this way. May the grace, peace and strength and healing power of the Lord Jesus be with her now like never before! Amen.

Blessed!

Further Details Mercury News.com

195 comments:

  1. What this case needs is executions. And not nice little humane ones either. I'm talking long, drawn out torturous public executions of the offenders. A five year jail sentence is nothing compared to what the victim goes though, especially in sick cases like this. Scum like this don't care about human dignity and religion doesn't mean jack to them (so more Jesus as the answer is worthless to prevent things like this). What is needed is FEAR. Mindnumbing, paranoia inducing terror in the hearts of any who would even think of things like this. And one can only create that by making the punishment unbelievably horrific.

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  2. Nightmare,

    I wish i could honestly say i disagree with you, but I can only think of how I would feel if this had been my daughter...

    That's where the rubber meets the road. WOW!

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  3. Yup, it is indeed. IMO the only person that has any right to offer forgiveness or mercy to such scum - including anyone that just sat by and let it happen - is the victim. And I wouldn't recommend it even for the victim, as that in a way just gives license to the scum. Sometimes pain is the only right answer.

    (In case you're wondering, things of this sort are one of the cases where I believe an eternal hell - and I mean hardcore torture, not just wussy "separation from god" like some preach - is justified. Not only justified, but the ONLY thing that could be just.)

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  4. Two things...Why am I just hearing about this on your blog? This is very upsetting - I know I live in a liberal city, but I watch Fox news too. Why is this story being censored?

    Second, the CNN story said she was found under a bench and was still in critical condition 3 days ago. They left her for dead, like a piece of meat.

    This is a scary generation coming up. The other day I heard college students chanting "pull the plug on grandma! we want our healthcare".

    I don't have kids, but this is what I see so often; both parents work so the kids raise themselves which means tv and video games. Should anyone be surprised at our youth when their favorite video game - Grand Theift Auto - provides for a character/player to purchase a prostitute and then beat her to death with a bat?

    As shocking as this gang-rape of a child is, I was just as shocked when there was no outrage from adults about that video game.

    Pastor, a delay here in listening to your message until I pick up some new speakers.

    Nightmare, I agree that every one of them needs to be taken out of society just as if they had taken her life. But if anyone can heal HER now, it's Jesus, and that's my prayer.

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  5. Laura,

    It's almost like there is a slow feeding to the public of what actually happened. Every report offers a little more detail and I suppose that's good so that there won't be any sensationalism, but this was a tragedy and something that I don't even believe wild animals do. So yes, it's disconcerting to see that for many, it's business as usual with a roadbump.

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  6. Laura said:
    Should anyone be surprised at our youth when their favorite video game - Grand Theift Auto - provides for a character/player to purchase a prostitute and then beat her to death with a bat?

    GTA is a game (plus it's not intended for the underage anyway). There's really no difference between beating a hooker to death in GTA, killing orcs (or humans) for quests in World of Warcraft, killing said orcs in a tabletop RPG like D&D, taking a pawn in chess, or pretend reenacting attempted genocide (ie playing cowboys and Indians). Why? Because all of these things are games - they are not for real, and no one gets hurt. At most a cloud of ones and zeros in a computer program goes away for a while only to respawn later. Please keep in mind this game -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind:_Eternal_Forces

    - in which Christian forces can kill off non-believers.

    From the article "Eventually, the player will have to fight the GC, who will use various forms to propaganda as well as conventional combat to reduce the Tribulation Force's numbers. Using physical combat to eliminate GC units and being exposed to the GC's various forms of influence (rock music, secularist propaganda etc.) will lower a unit's Spirit Level, which can eventually lead to the units switching sides unless they pray to increase their own spirit level."
    - in other words, killing non-believers is bad but praying makes it all ok again, mmmmmkay kids (*roll's eyes*)

    My point is though that it's all imagination, a game. People that can't tell the difference between a game a real life need serious mental help and that is not fault of the game - those that go on to mimic the game in real life would do so regardless of whether or not they played.

    I was just as shocked when there was no outrage from adults about that video game.

    People have been complaining about GTA since it first became successful. You are apparently simply unaware of that:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto_(series)#Controversy

    In any case, the problem lies not in the games (which again in the case of GTA are NOT for children) but in the parents and their lack of responsibility and caring for their precious little (and in many cases unwanted) hellspawn. This of course will prompt a longer rant, and at the moment I'm too tired for it, so yeah.

    But if anyone can heal HER now, it's Jesus, and that's my prayer.

    I hope someone can, and I hope if he (or anyone else that can) is listening he gets off his rear and does it without making her jump through a hundred or so hoops first. As one of those...whaddyacallem...free gifts. For her sake. Cause it's the results that matter, not some childish glory hounding - especially in a case like this.

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  7. http://www.connpost.com/opinion/ci_13626757

    U.S.A already has some of the most toughest crime sentence laws of the world.

    Use brains not just stupid anger.If rapists know its going to be execution if they get caught.They will simply murder as well after the rape.

    Revenge is never no best way to fix a problem look at Afghanistan and Iraq

    Problems are best fixed long term by addressing the reasons they happen in the first place.

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  8. Anonmyous,

    You said:Revenge is never no best way to fix a problem look at Afghanistan and Iraq

    Those wars weren't about revenge, they're drug wars...But to the point you make, while I agree in principle, some of these idiots think they will always have an escape from judgement.

    Making penalties strict displays a higher standard of acceptability and what will be tolerated within society. I agree that punishment on top of atrocity is never the desired standard, but it needs to be in place. If not for a deterrent, then simply to provide justice.

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  9. Anon. said:
    U.S.A already has some of the most toughest crime sentence laws of the world.

    Spoken like someone that doesn't know squat about what they're talking about.

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_would_the_average_jail_time_for_rape_be

    The average served sentence is just short of three years. Five is the average given sentence in my state (Wisconsin).

    Use brains not just stupid anger.If rapists know its going to be execution if they get caught.They will simply murder as well after the rape.

    How about you use some brains dimwit. I'm not talking about mere execution. I'm talking truly Medieval punishments, like being skinned alive, broken on the rack, burned alive, etc. Like Harvey said, there will always be some vermin that think they can get away with it, but the more horrible the punishment the more of those people will think twice about it. QED

    Further, killing the victim is not a sure fire means of escape unless the individual is careful to cover their tracks - rape has a tendency to not be an easy crime to "clean".

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  10. Nightmare said "and does it without making her jump through a hundred or so hoops first. As one of those...whaddyacallem...free gifts. For her sake. Cause it's the results that matter, not some childish glory hounding - especially in a case like this."

    Ok. This isn't the first time you have shown your distaste of God receiving the glory, so I gotta speak my mind on it.

    Maybe you're too young to see it, or maybe you never will, but if your Creator wants the glory, who are YOU to say it's childish?

    You think it's rough here? Well, this is just a speck of time in the big picture. You're gonna have eternity to contemplate how "childish" God Almighty was when He requested that, if you wanted something, you asked Him for it.

    And how He made a way for you to be reconciled to His Holy Self, but you weren't willing to call Him Lord for that.

    Why don't you put your judgment and sarcasm where it belongs - on the evil in this world and those demons you take advice from instead of the One that allows you the breathe.

    And while you're at it, why not have a look at Job 38 - when Job asked God why these things were happening to him. Just see what God says, and keep in mind that since Job could hear Him, that's the Jesus persona of the Trinity speaking. Jesus - your Judge.

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  11. "killing the victim is not a sure fire means of escape"

    No but there is sure no escape for the victim once murdered,even less escape than escaping rape.

    And be quite sure rapes will end in more murdered.Once rape carrys a death penalty.You do realise there is less chance of a dead body going to the police than live ones.And dead bodies that cannot be found dont tend to provide so many convictions.

    Sure give Medieval Justice another whirl not many are surprised at U.S.A intelligence anymore these days.Nothing like watching a once great nation revisit past failures again for a bit of a laugh.

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  12. Anon. said:
    Sure give Medieval Justice another whirl not many are surprised at U.S.A intelligence anymore these days.Nothing like watching a once great nation revisit past failures again for a bit of a laugh.

    Way to ignore the point mister US basher (oooo, so trendy - piece of advice, unless you live here or are being bombed by this country shut the hell up, cause odds are real good your own country is deep in bed with us anyway).

    Furthermore, you speak as if I have any control whatsoever over what my government does - CLUE, I don't, not one iota.

    So take your anonymous mewling elsewhere.

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  13. Laura said...
    Maybe you're too young to see it, or maybe you never will, but if your Creator wants the glory, who are YOU to say it's childish?

    Leaving aside the "my creator" bit, I am I. A thinking feeling breathing living limited human being. Compare that to a (supposedly) unlimited all powerful immortal god.

    Further, we are talking about suffering here - real suffering a real individual is going through. In the face of suffering no one's "glory" should have any priority whatsoever, especially since "glory" isn't real. It doesn't exist - it's an intangible concept of purely subjective value. People talk about wanting glory or war being glorious or whatever because glory is a matter of ego gratification. A glory hound is seeking to swell his own ego about how cool/great/skilled/brave/whatever he is. A desire for glory bespeaks an ego-based emotional need. Thusly, by the very nature of the concept it is childish and non-nonsensical for an immortal, all powerful, perfect being to desire glory.

    To clarify, I could care less who gets glory so long as actual results are seen. If Jesus came down and healed a bunch of invalids or cancer (for example) I'd be the first to thank him and buy the dude a beer presuming I was around.

    HOWEVER, when "glory" is taken as more important than alleviating suffering or, worse yet, held to be a prerequisite before any aid is offered, then I indeed have a severe problem with it. Such is nothing less than unrestrained evil.

    You're gonna have eternity to contemplate how "childish" God Almighty was when He requested that, if you wanted something, you asked Him for it.

    And if you ask someone for something and they continually reject your requests or simply ignore you, how before asking further is obviously pointless?

    And how He made a way for you to be reconciled to His Holy Self, but you weren't willing to call Him Lord for that.

    According to your beliefs I already am reconciled to him. That I have since grew a spine and realized that no one should be required submit to another in the unconditional fashion you imply has no bearing on past events. However, it seems that you no longer wish to acknowledge that. And despite my successful passage of the test you set before me (1 Corinthians 12:3).

    Besides, what kind of loving individual wants the people he loves to call him lord? Did Jesus ever demand his disciples call him lord? I don't recall such.

    on the evil in this world

    See my original response to Harvey's post.

    and those demons you take advice from

    As I have said before, I care for results period. The bible states that we should judge individuals by their fruits, does it not?

    instead of the One that allows you the breathe.

    Allows me to breathe? What a gracious bit of blackmail that.

    And while you're at it, why not have a look at Job 38

    I'm very familiar with the book of Job. Short version - Satan goads YHVH (all knowing YHVH I may add) into a bet to see how much torture Job will take before he curses YHVH. YHVH decides to take that bet. After the deaths of his children and loss of everything he has, Job finally gets fed up and starts to question YHVH. YHVH then speaks to him and basically says "you're nothing compared to me, shut up", to which Job responds "yes sir" like a whipped dog. YHVH then gives him his stuff back (but apparently neither he nor Job could give a rat's behind about Job's dead kids as a result of this bet).

    It's a classic example of an abusive relationship, pure and simple.

    Jesus - your Judge.

    If Jesus be my judge and he is just, I have little to fear. If he is not just, we are both screwed.

    You believe in grace, unconditional love Jesus has for us, yes? Tell me, would Jesus greet one such as me with judgment and recrimination as you do now? Or would he take my independence with a knowing smile and desire a relationship in spite of it requiring nothing in return? What would Jesus do indeed?

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  14. I would agree that something needs to happen in the US regarding crime. Throughout history and even now, capital punishment and other forms were public, somehow we think it is humane for no one to see but this does not drive fear into anyone. It seems that hearing of someone people hung is not the same as seeing it happen.

    People need to be made examples out of, there is just no fear and the criminals are getting younger and younger, will we ne surprised when a five year old kills a baby because of what they see on TV or listen to?

    Over the weekend 2 teenagers killed children - one 15 year old girl killed a 9 year old and buried the body while a 14 year old put a 4 year old in a clothes dryer!

    Castrate sexual predators and things will change!

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  15. Paul,

    ARE YOU SERIOUS? A 15 amd 14 year old like that? That is HORRIBLE. I just about fell out of my seat on that.

    With no remorse when you burying folk and others puttin' them in dryers...WOW!!!

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  16. Nightmare said "A glory hound is seeking to swell his own ego about how cool/great/skilled/brave/whatever he is. A desire for glory bespeaks an ego-based emotional need. Thusly, by the very nature of the concept it is childish and non-nonsensical for an immortal, all powerful, perfect being to desire glory. "

    Oh sure...looks good on paper but how does that play out in the real world? These are the kinds of spiritually blind statements that Bill Mahar makes, with no understanding of the goodness of God.

    Two scenarios:
    This young girl is brutally gang-raped and her first thought is "how could God let this happen to me?" She feels that God was not there for her, so she decides there is no God. She spends years in victim counseling but the hidden wounds never quite heal and she lives a frightened, bitter life.

    Two: This young girl is brutally gang-raped and her first thought is "Praise God! I'm still alive!" She knows in her heart that, though she can't see it now, what the devil used to harm her, God will turn it into something good, and in faith, she looks for it. She heals physically and emotionally, and goes on to live a productive, joyful life - Glorifying God for each blessed day.

    Now ask yourself - did God need her glory and worship? Or did she need it?
    (end part 1... I don't want to lose my post)

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  17. Yes Pastor Harvey!

    Its gone way too far!

    What about the young boys in Florida who burnt their young school mate because he told the police that they were trying to steal his fathers bike. In their twisted view, he was a "SNITCH".

    Its time for us to raise our children in the fear and admonition of The LORD. We have to say "NO" to things that seem innocent because the devil/demons always has predators trying to look for a weak sheep and if you are caught outside the Pastures even innocently, he is waiting to devour! Its serious, its time to stop compromising, our childrens lives are at stake!

    Lord give us wisdom in this final hour!

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  18. part 2:

    Luke 17:11-19
    Ten Lepers Cleansed

    "Now it happened as Jesus went to Jerusalem that He passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee. Then as He entered a certain village, there met Him ten men who were lepers, who stood afar off.

    And they lifted up their voices and said, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!”
    So when He saw them, He said to them, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And so it was that as they went, they were cleansed.

    And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, returned, and with a loud voice glorified God, and fell down on his face at His feet, giving Him thanks. And he was a Samaritan.

    So Jesus answered and said, “Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine? Were there not any found who returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?” And He said to him, “Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well.”

    Ten were healed, but only one was spiritually healed. Without giving God the glory, I'm sure some waited to see if the healing was real and would last, or maybe they would decide they never actually had leprosy in the first place, or it was only a coincidence that they were healed, or maybe when they showed themselves to the priests, they gave the priests the glory. And on and on...

    So why, being God, did Jesus ask where the others were? To show us that it pains Him when we don't give Him the glory, because in doing so, we are healed and made whole spiritually.

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  19. Personally, I don't give God glory for what it does for me, but because He is worthy to be praised. But your question "What would Jesus do?" got me thinking of the ungrateful lepors and I learned something too.

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  20. As a rape victim myself 20yrs ago I felt the same way that nightmare feels. But as time has went by with much prayer and healing I know God will handle this case better than man or the courts can. Its sad we live in a time where it is not safe for our daughters to go out and have fun at a school event. We have to more now than ever prayer for our children and for the children all over the world. Before my children leave to go to school we pray that angels will protect & watch over them.

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  21. Anon 10:34

    Very sorry to hear what you had to go through. I pray The LORD will continue to strengthen you by his grace.

    I would like to add that the law is Gods way of handling people who break the law.

    Romans 13:1-4

    Romans 13
    1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

    4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

    "he beareth not the sword in vain"

    I dont think there is any confusion in the meaning of this.

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  22. Laura said...
    Oh sure...looks good on paper but how does that play out in the real world? These are the kinds of spiritually blind statements that Bill Mahar makes, with no understanding of the goodness of God.

    Indeed it does work out on paper and in the real world. Try applying your advocacy of glory to some other individual besides your god (as your emotional blinders keep you from seeing clearly here methinks) and I think you'll see the point.

    (I like Bill Mahr alot btw, cool guy)

    Two scenarios:
    This young girl is brutally gang-raped and her first thought is "how could God let this happen to me?" She feels that God was not there for her, so she decides there is no God. She spends years in victim counseling but the hidden wounds never quite heal and she lives a frightened, bitter life.

    Two: This young girl is brutally gang-raped and her first thought is "Praise God! I'm still alive!" She knows in her heart that, though she can't see it now, what the devil used to harm her, God will turn it into something good, and in faith, she looks for it. She heals physically and emotionally, and goes on to live a productive, joyful life - Glorifying God for each blessed day.

    Now ask yourself - did God need her glory and worship? Or did she need it?


    Alot of problems here. First, you offer a purely binary scenario - one or the other and that's it. Real life don't work like that. IRL she could conceivably take the first path, heal anyway on her own, and become a perfectly happy person. Or become a Satanist and find her own personal power and heal via that means. Or any number of scenarios.

    In the context of your scenario though, you are right in the last sentence - she used religious belief as a tool to heal. However, your god is still not deserving of glory here because he didn't do anything (you make that rather clear). She may assign glory to him (harmlessly I may add) but it is in error because in this scenario she is the one who did the work, not him.

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  23. Laura said:
    Ten were healed, but only one was spiritually healed.

    This is the second time you've pulled the "spiritual" bit out in this exchange ("spiritually blind", "spiritually healed"). Let me clarify that I understand this for the code-phrase that it is. In essence, someone is "spiritually blind" or "not spiritually healed" when they do not express an opinion on a religious event that the individual Christian using the phrase finds acceptable. Thus, it does not reflect any real, objective condition but rather merely the opinion of the individual Christian. This is shown most clearly when two Christians have varying opinions on something and accuse each other of being spiritually blind. Therefore, this accusation is baseless.

    Without giving God the glory,

    We don't know they didn't.

    I'm sure some waited to see if the healing was real and would last,

    A rather practical if somewhat over skeptical stance.

    or maybe they would decide they never actually had leprosy in the first place, or it was only a coincidence that they were healed,

    Which would be utterly idiotic, given the scenario as written. So idiotic that no real individual would react in such a manner.

    or maybe when they showed themselves to the priests, they gave the priests the glory.

    Same goes here. Now, I can easily see them thanking YHVH at the temple (especially since the temple was held to be actual residence of YHVH), but to thank someone that wasn't even there are had nothing to do with it would by idiotic. Thusly, what you presume to be ungratitude on their part is likely not the case (presuming the story is even true).

    So why, being God, did Jesus ask where the others were? To show us that it pains Him when we don't give Him the glory, because in doing so, we are healed and made whole spiritually.

    Regardless of Jesus's divine status, the gospels make it clear the he was NOT all knowing during his time on Earth. Therefore, your conclusion that this is some kind of lesson as to what grieves him is likely errant.

    If it is not though, the situation is far worse. Because you're essentially saying that the all powerful all knowing eternal creator of the entire universe had his feelings hurt by something a few insignificant specs (in comparison to himself) failed to do, even though he knew they would react in such a manner.

    But your question "What would Jesus do?" got me thinking of the ungrateful lepors and I learned something too.

    Like (if I may ask)?

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  24. Nightmare,

    To say that God didn't do anything, is an overstatement in my opinion. I think if it was allowed to occur as horrible as it is and as much as none of us want anything like that duplicated in any way shape or form, at best we can say that we don't fully understand what God did...

    My rationale is this, criminals who would have otherwise done this throughout their lives (potentially) are now off the streets...People, who thought things like that don't happen in their community, are now aware of the problem, others who thought, "ooh those zanny kids" or "kids will be kids" now understand the seriousness and real life consequences of these actions and this sort of subculture. Parents who don't take proper time with their kids to identify these predatorial behaviors are now aware of what could be going on in the minds of their children.

    Maybe something like this causes people to rise and remedy situations that they otherwise would never have addressed or even concerned themselves with...

    On top of this, thankfully this young lady's life isn't over. She can and probably will use this event to prevent these things in other's lives.

    Only God can take a tragedy such as this and make it meaningful on so many fronts that it's unimaginable if it hadn't occurred.

    So I see your point about the anger at God, but good counciling will help her come out, not implode as you suggest, but go to a new level of purpose in life.

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  25. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    To say that God didn't do anything, is an overstatement in my opinion.

    I meant in the context of Laura's example.

    Only God can take a tragedy such as this and make it meaningful on so many fronts that it's unimaginable if it hadn't occurred.

    Not true. You have just taken said tragedy and saw the proverbial silver lining to it. God had nothing to do with that, just Harvey.

    However, look at all those things you listed. Now, think of all the multitude of ways an omnipotent god could have accomplished them other than this.

    Now weigh the ultimate triviality of those things you mentioned (remember sentencing - even if convicted they're only off the streets for 3 years or so, IF tried as adults) vs the unremitting horror that this young lady gets to remember for the rest of her life.

    Comes down to this - if your god did allow this he is just as complicit and guilty as the ones that perpetrated it, just as anyone that sat by and let it happen is (only moreso, because a human doesn't have infinite power over and knowledge of the event).

    This is the core of it Harvey. This is why I don't believe in your god as he is advertised. And in truth this is why neither you nor Laura do either.

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  26. Nightmare,

    You said:However, look at all those things you listed. Now, think of all the multitude of ways an omnipotent god could have accomplished them other than this.

    Now that's a question and observation that's beyond both you and me to evaluate. I mean look at it...how much knowledge do YOU have about the physical or material world? Name a percentage? Out of all the knowledge in the world how much of that do you know? I would imagine that the percentage would be very low and that is not an insult on your smartness, that's just a reality that all individuals face.

    Now apply that to God. the only way you can make the statements that you do is because of EMOTION NOT because of knowledge.So for you to say what GOd could have done, may be true...he could have done a lot of things...but you come noplace CLOSE to having an exaustive knowledge of him, his actions or allowances or having the WHY to it...so I understand from a human standpoint, but your requirement is unreasonable for someone that really doen't even know most knowledge about even the physical world, yet alone about God.

    You said:vs the unremitting horror that this young lady gets to remember for the rest of her life.

    People are a lot more resiliant than you give them credit. I believe she'll bounce back and prayerfully have a very good and fruitful life and won't be labled by this event. Others have made it through horrors such as this and are not stiemied by life.So we KNOW it can be done...I just hope it will in this case.

    You said:"Comes down to this - if your god did allow this he is just as complicit and guilty as the ones that perpetrated it,

    certainly not true for the reasons I mentioned above. You can't even measure HIS guilt because you don't know teh extent of HIS culpability...emotional statement my friend.

    You said:just as anyone that sat by and let it happen is (only moreso, because a human doesn't have infinite power over and knowledge of the event).

    I don't believe that this was the case in this event, but there was a lady in Chicago that got involved when a man was beating up his wofe in public. Looked like he was going to kill her...This lady got in teh way and ended up killing the husband...she's going to jail for a very long time and the prosecutors want blood...Now these guys that were onlookers were pervs...they had no ability to help at all...The others were social moralists, that don't want to rock the boat or do things differently. This displays the culture that exists within America today. People wo act are considered guilty while there seems to be an allowance for stupidity and unconcern. None of this had anything to do with God or his goodness. You problem of evil stint is noneffective in this one...

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  27. Nightmare said "In the context of your scenario though, you are right in the last sentence - she used religious belief as a tool to heal. However, your god is still not deserving of glory here because he didn't do anything (you make that rather clear). She may assign glory to him (harmlessly I may add) but it is in error because in this scenario she is the one who did the work, not him."

    Oh, contrare my friend. God heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds. For this one thing alone, He is worthy of our unending praise and worship, and even though you have no understanding of this, it would be proper that you respect it.

    If what you say is true, than why are there shelves and shelves of self-help books with a new one coming out every day, but not a christian in sight willing to purchase the world's "cure"? Because we know that we can't heal through self-talk, affirmations, positive thinking or any "secret". We don't trade one hurt (abuse) for another (drugs, alcohol). And we don't go looking to spirits and demons for answers if we are truly a child of God. We trust in the Lord and HE does the work in us.

    Now in the case of this young girl, she will need immediate counseling for sure. But when the counseling is over, and friends and family just want to move on, she'll need the Lord and if she calls on Him, He will heal her from the inside out.

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  28. Nightmare said "In essence, someone is "spiritually blind" or "not spiritually healed" when they do not express an opinion on a religious event that the individual Christian using the phrase finds acceptable. Thus, it does not reflect any real, objective condition but rather merely the opinion of the individual Christian.

    Again, not at all what I was saying. There is no code, unless a person lives like they are only mind and body and ignore their spirit. Like Bill Mahar, to even acknowlege his spirit would be too close to acknowleging his end, so he puts everything into his mind and can't discern the simplist of spirtual matters.

    "Without giving God the glory,
    We don't know they didn't."

    You don't believe the Bible, but you want to argue every point? (I only posted one) Talk about having your cake and eating it too! Let me know when you want to get real. Otherwise, you are only making idle conversation.

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  29. Pastor Harvey said "So for you to say what GOd could have done, may be true...he could have done a lot of things...but you come noplace CLOSE to having an exaustive knowledge of him, his actions or allowances or having the WHY to it...so I understand from a human standpoint, but your requirement is unreasonable for someone that really doen't even know most knowledge about even the physical world, yet alone about God."

    Amen! Amen! I've had my share of knock-down, drag-out fights with God, but what day was it that I said "your will, not mine"? I can't tell you for sure, but it took a long time because I just kept fighting Him. He knows everyone's life story from beginning to end and He asks us to trust Him like a Father, not some genie in the sky.

    Nightmare said "This is why I don't believe in your god as he is advertised. And in truth this is why neither you nor Laura do either."

    I believe in the God of the Bible, not a fairy godmother or an action hero. You want a life without pain or evil in the world? Well, that's just your soul longing for Heaven.

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  30. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    So for you to say what GOd could have done, may be true...he could have done a lot of things...but you come noplace CLOSE to having an exaustive knowledge of him, his actions or allowances or having the WHY to it...so I understand from a human standpoint, but your requirement is unreasonable for someone that really doen't even know most knowledge about even the physical world, yet alone about God.

    One doesn't have to know everything in order to understand the definition of the terms omnipotent (ie all powerful) and omniscient (ie all knowing). This is what your god is claimed to be yes?

    Now, me I'm not all powerful or all knowing (I wouldn't want to be). In fact, I have the privilege of knowing enough to understand that I know nothing. HOWEVER, I do understand the meaning of those two terms. And further, I know that if I were all knowing and all powerful (or even half that) I could imagine at least a dozen ways to accomplish all of the things you stated without having this poor girl undergo this. Now, if I - limited little ole me - can do that, how much more could an all knowing all powerful being accomplish?

    So no Harvey, my compliant is not unreasonable in the least. Rather, your retreat to ignorance as a defense is unreasonable.

    Others have made it through horrors such as this and are not stiemied by life.So we KNOW it can be done...I just hope it will in this case.

    I hope so as well, very fervently. Would that I could make a difference (reliably).

    You can't even measure HIS guilt because you don't know teh extent of HIS culpability...

    If one is aware of a thing such as this happening and one has the power to stop it (especially without risk to oneself or one's loved ones), and one does nothing to prevent it, is one to blame or not? Yes or no? You've already answered in the positive with this statement "This displays the culture that exists within America today. People wo act are considered guilty while there seems to be an allowance for stupidity and unconcern."

    I can understand that you wish to defend your god Harvey, but the fact of the matter is that you are pinioned by the very traits you claim him to have and denial cannot change that. If he were not claimed to be all powerful or all knowing I could accept that, but as is there is no excuse.

    You problem of evil stint is noneffective in this one...

    (shakes head) You think this is an argument, an attempt to sway. You are wrong. I am merely stating my own thoughts, as always. I gave up trying to sway people long ago, having learned that the only way anyone ever learns or grows or changes their mind is if they truly want to.

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  31. Laura said...
    and even though you have no understanding of this, it would be proper that you respect it.

    I understand and respect (say it with me...) results. Given the context of your example, she healed herself with no aid from your god. Denial will not change that, as my reading comprehension skills still work last I knew ;)

    If what you say is true, than why are there shelves and shelves of self-help books with a new one coming out every day, but not a christian in sight willing to purchase the world's "cure"?

    Apparently Texas is indeed a different planet as Family Guy has implied, cause I know a number of Christians who have bought self help books. ;)

    Again, not at all what I was saying. There is no code,

    I knew you would deny it, but from the way you (and others) use these phrases this is indeed partially the intended meaning. Of course, I don't wish to be presumptuous. Please explain what you mean by "spiritually healed".

    Like Bill Mahar, to even acknowlege his spirit would be too close to acknowleging his end

    You are yet again in error. I have heard at least one occasion where Bill discusses his own death. I'll see if I can find it on YouTube, but no guarantees.

    You don't believe the Bible, but you want to argue every point? (I only posted one) Talk about having your cake and eating it too!

    One can very easily discuss things that they do not believe to be true (for instance, I've had knock down drag out arguments with other Star Wars fans about the nature of the Dark Side of the Force in said fictional universe). In this instance, I was treating the subject matter as true for the purpose of discussion. Rather a kinder approach than simply dismissing it out of hand, no?

    Let me know when you want to get real. Otherwise, you are only making idle conversation.

    Real is what the entire concern of my research is, as you may know if you caught the implication in my stated goals. This conversation is not part of said research though, being an idle opinion that has been drawn into a tangent (a distasteful one at that). Ultimately however, ALL of this, with very few exceptions, is idle conversation. That does not mean it is entirely without value however.

    Regardless, denying my right or capability to debate your bible does nothing but show you cannot contend with the points I raised.

    He asks us to trust Him like a Father, not some genie in the sky....
    I believe in the God of the Bible, not a fairy godmother or an action hero.


    And yet "Jesus is your lottery ticket. HE fulfills dreams and gives you all great and perfect gifts." (forgive the quote, but I cannot address this without it) Pray tell how is that any different than a genie in the sky Laura?

    This is why I say neither you nor Harvey (nor most other Christians, you're not alone here) truly believe in what you claim YHVH to be. Because you seem to have no concept of what an all powerful god could truly do and when the topic arises you retreat to excuses for why he doesn't act and scornful remarks like yours above. It's sad, it truly is, and the theories that I have to account for such behavior are vague at best.

    You want a life without pain or evil in the world? Well, that's just your soul longing for Heaven.

    There's the typical Christian arrogance rearing it's head again - more than a few have presumed to know me or my desires better than I do, all wrongly.

    I do not wish a world without pain or evil, in this context I simply wish that your god either live up to what he is claimed to be or that is be admitted that is not what he is claimed to be - rather simple and reasonable I think.

    As for what I truly long for, my heaven if you will, that you will have to ask after privately as I do not wish to discuss it here.

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  32. Nightmare,

    The bible tells us that the devil is the god of this age (2 Cornith 4:4). No where in scripture does God promise to make everything right in this earth, regardless of Him being all powerful.


    "2 Timothy 3
    1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come."


    Contrary to what you say, because He is all powerful He has the right to do or not do what He wants. How can the created tell the creator how He should do things, now isnt that presumptious and absurd?

    "Job 38
    2 “Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorant words?"

    What you are saying is that you are better than God since you would not allow these things to happen but you negate the fact that we live in evil world and people make choices. Because of "MANS" sin sometimes the innocent suffer but you shouldnt dare try to blame that on God. As a truth if it was not for God it would be much worse.

    "2 Thessalonians 2:5-10

    5 Don’t you remember that I told you about all this when I was with you? 6 And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. 7 For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way. 8 Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming.

    9 This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. 10 He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them."

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  33. Part 2

    God stopping all evil wouldnt even make sense. How are we to know we need to flee this evil world if not for the very presence of evil? The evil is the whole point to show us we are in need of help. SIN IS THE PROBLEM.

    God The Father through Christ has made it possible for us to live holy but many reject Him and refuse Him because to us it is foolishness. Simply put if man follows after Christ they would not commit such evil.

    I know of what I speak because some one tried to kill me a while back and the funny thing is even as an unbeliever I cried out to God not blame Him. I am sure I asked why but I can tell you that today I am a better person because of the situation and the power of God that was shown in my life.

    God will use things the devil meant to kill you to be a blessing if you give your life to Him.

    I would advise you to be humble and ask God to show you truth.

    May The LORD save you by His grace!

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  34. Paul,

    The problem with nightmare's line of thinking (because it's not exclusive to him only) is that none of them have a regard for scriptural truth. They don't hold the bible to be of any type of inspired or God given truth. So there is no regard for scripture at all.

    More or less the basuis that those like Nightmare have for truth including morality is self-contrived. The reflection of what they hold valuable is based on their own imagry, not the imagry of God, his word or absolute truth.Very well, individuals that think like this can say (as does Richard Dawkins) that ANY action could be a truth...ie; rape could just as well as be accepted as a true or good value as chastity. It depends upon what we contrive it to be.

    So Nightmare simply underscores the futility of a blinded spirit. There is no underlying objective values and what values are God given are merely explained away as a non-essential.

    In his statements, he blames God for not acting against evil, when as you clearly explain, if God eliminated evil he would have to eliminate mankind. He could do that by stripping us of freewill, which would destroy man's nature and essence, or he could physically destroy us, because all evil in this world comes from man's heart...even the natural evil developed out of the heart of man...that's a spiritual concept and one that he or those that think like him can't see...

    For us to rationalize how we should act and superimpose that on God who's motives are beyond us is self-centeredness and no better than those in the midevil times who thought the universe centered around them...and yes they were religious folk...and now the non religious are just as bad off.

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  35. You are right Pastor!

    The gospel is veiled to those who perish. Spiritually discerned.

    Lets trust the LORD to remove the blindness, thats the only way.

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  36. Paul said...
    He has the right to do or not do what He wants. How can the created tell the creator how He should do things, now isnt that presumptious and absurd?

    Wrong, and I'll show you why. Say you're a parent for the purpose of this. Now, you and your child's mother created that child - before the conception it didn't exist. Does that give you the right to abuse, neglect, or otherwise harm that child? No, it obviously doesn't. Does that child not have a right to speak up and tell you what you are doing wrong in relation to it if you are doing so? Damn skippy he or she does, and they have a right to seek help from other adults too in such situations. Why? Because the child is a living intelligent being, not a lump of clay or a pot. QED And frankly if you (and Harvey) cannot see this you're blinded by your faith to point of fanaticism.

    What you are saying is that you are better than God since you would not allow these things to happen

    So be it.

    but you negate the fact that we live in evil world and people make choices.

    So? How does that negate the power of an all powerful being in the slightest? How does that alter the responsibility to act based on one's power and knowledge in the slightest? It doesn't. You're simply making excuses because you can't face the truth.

    but you shouldnt dare try to blame that on God.

    Why not? I've read alot of excuses here, but I still don't see one good reason why not.

    Simply put if man follows after Christ they would not commit such evil.

    Y'know, I don't follow your god, and I'll tell you flat out - I'd rather kill myself than do anything like what was done to this poor girl. Alot of people in fact don't follow your god and yet they don't run around raping and murdering others for fun. So your argument here is uninformed at best, willfully ignorant at worst.

    I know of what I speak because some one tried to kill me a while back and the funny thing is even as an unbeliever I cried out to God not blame Him

    A normal reaction in this culture. Thing is, I was once a Christian. I once believed everything you've said. I know it now to be false. That's the place I'm speaking from.

    I would advise you to be humble and ask God to show you truth.

    I asked and begged for answers for a long time, but eventually realized I was wasting my time. It's been over a decade now and still not a peep (the one thing that might have been something was dismissed out of hand by your brethren as demonic, though I consider that questionable). I guess I just don't rate the treatment that you special folks get.

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  37. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    They don't hold the bible to be of any type of inspired or God given truth. So there is no regard for scripture at all.

    When you know something to be false do you give it any weight or regard? I think not. It's garbage, to use your word Harvey, pure garbage.

    More or less the basuis that those like Nightmare have for truth including morality is self-contrived.

    You understand nothing about me do you? My basis for truth is simple - that which is factually (primarily) and probabilistically (secondarily) evident. As for morality, my basis is indeed myself, based on the factual definitions of the terms good and evil. Unlike you however I don't feel a need to put a mask that says "GOD" on everything I do or think. Y'see I don't have the same overwhelming need to be Right that you (and those like you) do.

    Very well, individuals that think like this can say (as does Richard Dawkins) that ANY action could be a truth...ie; rape could just as well as be accepted as a true or good value as chastity. It depends upon what we contrive it to be.

    Talking about totally missing Dawkins' position on morality (rollseyes). You're putting words into a whole lot of people's mouths here. And personally, since you obviously can no clue about even my own positions (someone which you have personally interacted with), I'd question how much you actually know vs you much you think you know - which it seem more and more to be everything...

    So Nightmare simply underscores the futility of a blinded spirit.

    As opposed to your all knowing perfection. And Paul thinks I need to be humble. You sir are a textbook example of the kind of Christian arrogance I mentioned above. If Jesus does actually exist I'm fairly certain he's somewhere puking his guts out over you lot.

    I was gonna continue to respond, pointing out your humanocentric arrogance as well but hell why bother? You've got too much of your own self-righteousness and all-knowing certainty in your ears again to bother listening.

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  38. Harvey wroteL They don't hold the bible to be of any type of inspired or God given truth. So there is no regard for scripture at all.


    This is false conclusion, in at least my case, and probably Nightmares as well. When I read scripture, I see human beings trying to understand their world. This gives us insight into human nature. Furthermore, there are aspects of the Bible that do contain wisdom. However, this does not mean I think the Bible is the word of an omniscient being or a guide to morality.

    In fact, most modern Biblical scholars would agree that the Bible is NOT a moral guide. And I'm willing to bet that even you do not use the Bible as a guide for moral behavior. That you must interpret the Bible though your own enlightened moral compass clearly indicates it's NOT a guide for moral behavior.

    More or less the basuis that those like Nightmare have for truth including morality is self-contrived.

    Perhaps you meant to say self-conceived?

    What I fail to understand about a God-based moral foundation is that God is supposedly an agent who has desires and makes choices. He has opinions and "likes" things. The means by which God's decisions are objectively moral isn't really clearly defined. Instead, it's asserted by means of special pleading based on Biblical claims or finely spun speculation.

    As agents with free will, human choices are "subjective." But despite being the agent in who's image we're supposedly made in, God's choices are somehow "objective?" The analogies that attempt to support this claim are numerous and take several different approaches, but in the end it's all assertions which are accepted by default or out of consequences.

    God is the potter and we are the pots. God had the ability to create us, therefore he has the right to destroy us? But this is essentially might makes right. Nor are clay pots sentient beings. Furthermore this clearly fails as a thought experiment. For example, imagine we could design a sentient being in a computer, then build one out of nothing. Should we gain this ability, would this give us the right to torture or destroy said being? Would this really be considered moral behavior? Of course not. So then why does God get a free pass?

    God is the foundation of morality because: the Bible says so, the Bible is God's word and God doesn't lie. It's completely circular. We can reduce this down to "God doesn't lie because God says he doesn't lie." Except when the Bible depicts him doing just this, which is explained away as "righteous deception", along with "righteous anger", "righteous jealousy", etc.

    And for all of us out who are unwilling to accept an tautology out of tradition or blind faith, there's aways the Appeal to consequence fallacy, which theists use often. Example?

    If God isn't the foundation of morality then rape could have been moral or people would go around raping and murdering people.

    This is a fallacious argument from consequence. First, this is a non-sequitur as it assumes unless someone believes their morality comes from God, they will act in an immoral manner. Second, even if this were the case, wouldn't mean the claim that our morality comes from God is actually true. Instead, it would imply that, if it wasn't for a potentially false threat of eternal torture, human beings would go around raping and murdering. But this is both another non-sequitur and obviously false as I, and millions of other non-theists, do not go around raping and murdering people.

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  39. In his statements, he blames God for not acting against evil, when as you clearly explain, if God eliminated evil he would have to eliminate mankind.

    As I mentioned in the previous thread, we cannot rule out a God who is all powerful but chooses not to reveal himself to us directly and does nothing. However, should God have chosen to create something where nothing would have existed otherwise, his actions have consequences.

    If, while eliminating evil, God would end up eliminate human beings, then one of the consequences of God's creation is the presence of evil. This is inescapable. It's as if you somehow think God's actions only have consequences when they are convenient for your religious beliefs.

    Furthermore, you're making another argument from consequence. That God would have to destroy human beings doesn't mean that God is perfectly good by allowing evil. It simply doesn't follow. It's fallacious because it depends on the value we put on our own existence. That I personally do not want to be destroyed doesn't meant that God can be perfectly good and allow evil. You're appealing to emotion. Claiming that a perfectly good and completely self sufficient God would create, knowing evil would occur, rather than not create anything at all, is a contradiction.

    For us to rationalize how we should act and superimpose that on God who's motives are beyond us is self-centeredness and no better than those in the midevil times who thought the universe centered around them...and yes they were religious folk...and now the non religious are just as bad off.

    Harvey, the problem here is that you believe the God depicted in the Christian Bible is the one true God. This is in contrast to the God of Islam or the Hindu Gods. For you to reach this conclusion, YOU must rationalize how God should act based on YOUR conception of God. Otherwise, you'd be a universalist.

    If God is mysterious, all powerful and the very foundation of morality, then anything God did could be justified as righteous and beyond our understanding. But you reject the God of Islam because he doesn't do X or because he does Y. Therefore, you ARE superimposing your own personal opinions about how God should or should not act. If you did not, then you're merely following tradition without personal conviction.

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  40. "I was once a Christian. I once believed everything you've said. I know it now to be false. That's the place I'm speaking from."

    You were once a Christian? if I had a dollar for everytime I heard that. Well I once wasnt a Christian and doubted Christ and constantly asked why is He the only way, I had a big problem with those narrow minded, fanatics!

    My friend, when you see the power of God in your life and have your testimony, no one can change that. So you see I doubt your "Christianity" because when Jesus gets a hold of man they live in misery if they backslide (from experience).

    You call my reaction common, thats kool, but you have gone the total other way as has many people in this world. Do you know how many times I have heard people say, "If there was a God"? your sentiments are a dime a dozen, you are not alone in the least.

    I was shot four times and God kept me when I had no faith in Him at all. As the pain hit my body I made up my mind to die and closed my eyes, as I did that a friend said "Paul, open your eyes, your gonna live". At that point (as a sinner), I prayed to God and from that point on though the pain was great, I was able to bear it.

    This happened at a club and mind you, I just knew that I shouldve gone home but a friend convinced me to go. I have no idea why I felt not to go, there is no science that can show why people have this knowledge of something wrong happening/about to happen. However God used it as something to lead me to Himself, THANK YOU JESUS!

    Soon after this, a friend gave me gun to protect myself. I accidently shot a friend! again God was merciful, I didnt go to jail and my friend lived.

    I still didnt learn my lesson and realize that God was calling me, after this I thought I had contracted HIV and again God was merciful!! I know have a wife and a baby on the way.

    Thinking this was happening (HIV)I just knew I had to give it to Christ. The funny thing is and was, I do not have a Christian background and went to church only a few times in life apart from funerals and weddings. The question is why was I lead to Christ and not another faith,of which I knew much of, WHY? You may say I just made up my mind, most probably and there is nothing I can do about it but I know.

    I didnt respond to your other comments because this one says it all, you have lost your faith because you are upset with God. You know more than God and you are better, more loving and more compassionate than Him, must be or why would God allow bad things to happen and especially to you. I can understand why you would be upset. Funny thins is you mention self rightousness, you attitude of thinking you know how God should behave is the epitome of self rightousness.

    Funny you say God is not real but if Christianity is real, God sent His only Son to suffer for people who hated Him and killed sed Son. Jesus asked the Father to forgive the very people who crucified Him. You say you love would you give your Son for people who you knew hated you?


    Yes, humility is the only way to Christ. You must humble yourself and I encourage you to do it.

    I was a sinner saved by grace, without Christ I am nothing but a sinner. Its all God doing, I or no one who has faith in Christ can take any credit.

    God bless you!

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  41. Paul wrote: Funny thins is you mention self rightousness, you attitude of thinking you know how God should behave is the epitome of self righteousness.

    Paul, the funny thing is, unless you're a universalist, you've exhibiting the same behavior you're accusing Nightmare of exhibiting. Nightmare simply goes one God further. That you claim to be a Christian tells me you do think you know how God should behave. And that he should behave like the Christian God supposedly behaves.

    So, it would appear that you are exhibiting a "self-righteousness" attitude by claiming that God would not behave like behave like Allah or Brahma, but he would behave like the Christian God instead.

    As I mentioned to Harvey, If God is mysterious, all powerful and the very foundation of morality, then anything God supposedly did could be justified as righteous and beyond our understanding. But as a Christian, if you have faith that God has done some things, but not others, then you're just as "guilty" of supposing what God would or would not do.

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  42. To Harvey and Paul,

    In case my argument is not clear, I'll present a few examples.

    Do you think God sent Jesus to visit the Native American indians as The Book of Mormon suggests?

    Surely, if he is all powerful, sending Jesus wouldn't be a problem for God. And if he is the foundation of morality, then deciding to sending Jesus to witness to the Native American indians would have been an objectively moral choice. As mere human beings, God might have a perfectly good reason to send Jesus back to earth a second time. We just wouldn't be able to understand it. But despite all of these things, I'm guessing you simply think this is the kind of thing God wouldn't do because you're a Christian. Right?

    We can make the same observation about God giving engraved tablets to Joseph Smith. As a Christian, you think God is more of a stone table kind of guy, rather than gold.

    If fact, that you conclude the world you observe around you affirms the existence of Christian God, rather than the Muslim God or the Hindu God, implies that God would create a world like the one we live in the specific way depicted in the Bible.

    Whether you realize it or not, these are claims about how you think God should behave. To to extent that you KNOW the Christian God exists is the extend that you KNOW how God should behave. The two are inseparable.

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  43. Sorry all I've been busy following our national meeting and all, but from what I can see the same ole tired stories of "grand human morality" still exists with as much confusion as ever as perpetuated by the nongod crowd...

    Look, the story is tired and quite unsuccessful...to assume that God has an OBLIGATION to stop all evil is ridiculous...

    We EXIST by GRACE...this is a non obligatory construct from the beginning...GRACE says that what good you receive is undeserving...

    The atheist plays on ONE aspect of God's nature and perverts that aspect to try to make his case...well, case UNSUCCESSFUL!

    Other parts of God's nature include his justice, yet noone says that when God exacts vengence that it's too much...

    God allowing evil to exist is the ultimate expression of freewill choices...man has a choice and God has a choice. Man CHOSE sin as demonstrated by the CHOICE of unbelief. This instiruted the suffering...ALL suffering that we see...

    Scott obviously you know nothign about the fallacy which you promote for the construction of the problem of evil IS EXACTLY the fallacy of consequence...

    Ie: If a perfectly good god exists he would overvcome evil...2- evil exists 3- therefore (the consequence of the existence of evil) is that God does not exist

    Yours is silly and sloppy reasoning to begin with. Our proposition is much better and more accurate:

    1- A perfectly good God exists who claims that all evil will be subdued
    2- Evil currently exists
    3- Therfore God being perfectly good will one day subdue all evil and has provided the resurrection fo Jesus as token toward that pledge.

    This is totally consistent with scipture on teh subject and doesn't make the absurd leaps that the critic "thinks" to be essential in order for God to exist. Jesus then stands and says:

    John 16:33~These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have OVERCOME the world.

    1 John 5:4-5:~4-For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. 5-Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

    Look God doesn't owe anyone, including the critic who thinks the world belongs to him or her on a platter the way they want it...

    Now, let's revert back to a minimalist argument for a minute...

    Since we are dealing with not only atheists, but some of the more radical ones at that...at least in Scott's case who only shows up to protect his gods Dawkins or Darwin...

    Let's just say that God doesn't exist...Now, EXPLAIN the evil we see in the world in the context of why and it's purpose?...

    You see I KNOW what I believe...DO YOU?

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  44. I said:

    "This instiruted the suffering...ALL suffering that we see..."

    that was funny...I meant to say this INSTITUTED ALL THE SUFFERING that we see...

    anyway fault me for bad typing skills...ok

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  45. 1- A perfectly good God exists who claims that all evil will be subdued
    2- Evil currently exists
    3- Therfore God being perfectly good will one day subdue all evil and has provided the resurrection fo Jesus as token toward that pledge.


    Here's a perfect example of Harvey exhibiting the same "arrogance" that he accuses others of exhibiting.

    Clearly, Harvey seems to think he KNOWS what God would NOT do, which is subdue evil immediately or prevent it by acting proactively. Instead, he claims that God would delay this process and hand out "tokens" in the interim. Of course, Harvey does this because it's the only way he can construct a "good" God that could exists regardless of what we currently observe.

    Whether he realizes it or not, this is a claim about how God should behave, which is the very same thing he's accusing others of making.

    Again, the extent that you KNOW the Christian God exists is the extent that you KNOW how God should behave.

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  46. Harvey wrote: The atheist plays on ONE aspect of God's nature and perverts that aspect to try to make his case...well, case UNSUCCESSFUL!

    Other parts of God's nature include his justice, yet noone says that when God exacts vengence that it's too much…


    Harvey, here's the dilemma.

    If it's God's infinite nature that makes him infinitely just, then we have a problem, as this same infinite nature would also make him infinitely tolerant and infinitely forgiving. It's a contradiction.

    So, again, you've accused non-theists of something that you yourself are clearly "guilty" of, because you assume God is only infinite when it is convenient for your theology.

    It this isn't the definition of a unsuccessful "play", then I don't know what is.

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  47. Scott,

    You major in trying to find fault especially when you have no bais for an argument...I don't really care about your criticism of my basis for understanding what GOd has clearly communicated...His word as communicated stands and withstands all tests and scruitiny much greater than yours...

    You yet fail to answer the only question I ask, so I'll repeat it again and let's see if you can do better than last time:

    For YOU, let's just say that God doesn't exist (after all that's your claim isn't it?)...Now, EXPLAIN the evil we see in the world in the context of why and it's purpose?...

    Do that for us please...we want to see that from you in particularly.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Nightmare said "You've got too much of your own self-righteousness and all-knowing certainty in your ears again to bother listening."

    Though you didn't write this to me, I have a feeling that you feel about me the same way, so I'm going to answer it.

    It's my opinion that you are the one who doesn't listen. You are so critical of christians and their motives that you wouldn't know truth if it slapped you in the face!

    Because it has, time and time again, right here. And any time that truth hits too close to home, you dismiss it with "I've heard that before" (well, duh!), and the always popular "I don't believe the Bible" in spite of your insistence to argue interpretation of the bible, story motives, etc.

    I've got the answers to your questions, but I ask you...what's the point? I've spent countless hours trying to understand and help you get to the answers to your questions, though it might not have looked that way, and I'm not complaining because that's what love does.

    But you tie our hands and bind our mouths and then cry that we don't listen. It's a pattern that didn't take long to be noticeable, and I have to wonder if you did the same thing with God.

    Right now, you're back to bellyaching that God didn't do or give you what you wanted some 10 years ago. Well welcome to life! We don't always get what we want but we get what we need, and we have his solemn promise that all things work for good to those that love Him and that He is with us always and will never forsake us.

    These promises are, of course, for believers. See, Jesus said that anyone who calls on God must first believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him - another promise.

    So are we suppose to be moved to sympathy for you when you say his promises are garbage when we KNOW they are not? You keep playing these games to avoid Truth, and then get mad because we refuse to play along. I guess I shouldn't be surprised to read your post where you say a child should be able to tell its parents how to care for them.

    So tell me, where do you draw the line at God's intervention? Rape, murder, being short-changed at the cash register? How about stubbing your toe? I mean, if we are going to play the blame game, where does it stop?

    You act like there are no terrible consequences to associating with demons on a daily basis, and when one comes to you and says he's Jesus and feeds you lies you want to hear, you are too far gone and blind not to fall for it hook line and sinker.

    You are responsible for your choices in this short life. I have to believe there is still a part of you that knows what you are doing is wrong, but unfortuately you're willing to gamble because you love the dark, and, after all, you DO have that episode from 10 years ago as an excuse not to change, right? So don't give us your lecture about OUR attitudes. Go look in the mirror at who you are really mad at and get real about the choices you have made for yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Laura said...
    Though you didn't write this to me, I have a feeling that you feel about me the same way, so I'm going to answer it.

    No in fact. Although you do have the same unreasonable certainty Harvey wallows in, you have nothing of his arrogance (barring the one incident I noted above). You at least are also genuinely concerned as well to some degree, whereas Harvey I ain't so sure about.

    It's my opinion that you are the one who doesn't listen.....And any time that truth hits too close to home, you dismiss it with "I've heard that before" (well, duh!), and the always popular "I don't believe the Bible" in spite of your insistence to argue interpretation of the bible, story motives, etc.

    You mistake critical examination with not listening. One cannot critically examine something without first listening. You would not jump into the first questionable idea that someone presents to you without examining it for problems and errors would you? No, you indeed will not even consider any other position than the one you've already arrived at, while I've been flirting with the idea of engaging Jesus to some degree for the past month or so. To be fair if nothing else.

    And yet the wonderful (sarcasm) examples given here do little more than drive me away from that idea with sheer disgust. Cause frankly if this is the attitude and total disregard of others that comes from GOD living inside you I want nothing of it. Funny how that works, no?

    I've got the answers to your questions,

    And your answers have been largely insufficient, serving only to provoke more questions. You say you have the truth, but know you this - the truth can stand up to questioning and the truth is coherent. You on the other hand have the habit of answering a question and then ignoring any resulting questions. That is not a sign of truth, but rather dogma.

    Right now, you're back to bellyaching that God didn't do or give you what you wanted some 10 years ago.

    Proof that you didn't even bother to read my history. You sit here and condescendingly trivialize a time spiritual anguish merely to defend your own dogma and call that loving - well, you made it clear that your religion comes before any personal relationships you may have so that's to be expected.

    These promises are, of course, for believers. See, Jesus said that anyone who calls on God must first believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him - another promise.

    And for the thousandth time I WAS! I know damn well now you don't believe that and never will - all because of your predetermined dogma - but that's the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Laura continued...
    So are we suppose to be moved to sympathy for you when you say his promises are garbage when we KNOW they are not?

    So you expect me to take your word about your lives as being of higher value than my own experiences? How hypocritically ironic, since that is precisely what you are refusing to do, even when I'm not claiming JACK about your lives - I'm only expecting you to take my word about MY LIFE.

    But apparently you lot are more knowledgeable about my life than I am.

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised to read your post where you say a child should be able to tell its parents how to care for them.

    Which you apparently didn't even bother to fully read and understand.

    So tell me, where do you draw the line at God's intervention? Rape, murder, being short-changed at the cash register? How about stubbing your toe? I mean, if we are going to play the blame game, where does it stop?

    Where would you (if you were a parent) draw the line at protecting your child? Hey, I got an idea, let's use Laura and Harvey's model of child care - when some pervert comes along with the intention of kidnapping (and fill in the blank) kids let's just ignore the situation and let it happen. Hell, why bother even looking for em and trying to get em back for that matter. This would certainly be nice and loving I guess.

    You act like there are no terrible consequences to associating with demons on a daily basis, and when one comes to you and says he's Jesus and feeds you lies you want to hear, you are too far gone and blind not to fall for it hook line and sinker.

    And you know nothing but the dogma that's been pumped into you since you were a child. You presume that the entirely of reality is black and white and fits nicely into a collection of books of dubious origin written back in the days when people still thought the Earth was the center of the universe. And then you don't even bother to listen when I clearly state that I consider that entity to be questionable. Questionable - as in jury's still out, no real opinion on it's claims.

    You are responsible for your choices in this short life.

    But you're not, oh no cause your special cause you got GOD living in you and can do no wrong.

    So don't give us your lecture about OUR attitudes. Go look in the mirror at who you are really mad at and get real about the choices you have made for yourself.

    I'll lecture whomever I damn well please, cause get this, I AM a mirror. I'm showing you lot precisely what you're showing me. If you don't like it pry the frikkin redwood tree outta your eye before you worry about the spec in mine (hmm sounds familiar that no? But naaaaaaaaaaaaah, that could never possibly extend to the special people could it?)

    you are too far gone and blind

    But hell, don't bother listening to a word I say cause you've already made your determination. And we both know what that means. Go live with it.

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  51. And PS Laura: You can't even consistently make up your mind on what precisely is necessary to be saved (forever) by the "free gift" of the gospel of grace you claim to believe in. Given that alone why should I place any value in your claim to have the truth?

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  52. Nightmare, what happened in your life to make you upset with God?Did a prayer go unanswered.

    I would like to give you food for thought. Many people who have gone through things you have a problem with God for letting them happen love Christ with all their hearts.

    You have a problem here and there is absolutley nothing you can do about it. Christ has proven himself in the life of many abused and they didnt lose their faith on the contrary you did, maybe some went through much more than you have.

    Are you bitter? our loving God can even help you with that.

    God has not given up on you though you have on Him.

    Laura, I encourage you not to take Nightmare on. From what I see he/she is searching for truth but looks for everything he/she sees as negative from Christians to use to go against Christ. Its as if to build some kind of case against Christ and Christianity.

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  53. Nightmare, I totally accept the "beam in your own eye" as rebuke - it's the most honest thing you have said, I believe. I apologize for being critical of you when I am so far from the mark myself.

    I can tell you that God is not sleeping, and He has been reaching out to you (example- lottery ticket) through His people, but He won't open the door - that's up to you.

    God might be showing me something - that my "feeling" that we are not required to repent of sin in our lives is bogus. I'm talking about believers here - not the act of believing unto Salvation - a free gift.

    I know it is by His Grace that we are changed, and without a doubt there are things in my life God has changed without me even lifting a finger - desires that were once there now gone and not at all missed. But in my relationship with you, I have seen the need, or the necessity for repentance even if we are powerless to change ourselves. I'm seeing that unacknowledged sin in our lives (and I do mean OUR) acts like a closed door itself. I don't know how this fits our Grace book because I still haven't started reading, but I think its something God is showing me.

    I believe the prayer Paul said for you (though I never heard it) did more than anything anyone here can say or answer.
    Hugs (((Paul))) (((Nightmare)))

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  54. Nightmare said "You on the other hand have the habit of answering a question and then ignoring any resulting questions. That is not a sign of truth, but rather dogma."

    Please give me credit for being able to read and understand what is fruitless.

    "I knew you would deny it..."

    "One can very easily discuss things that they do not believe to be true"

    "This is why I say neither you nor Harvey... truly believe in what you claim..."

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  55. Paul said...
    Nightmare, what happened in your life to make you upset with God?Did a prayer go unanswered.

    Tis a long story Paul, and one I'm not inclined to share publicly because (amongst other reasons) it does come across as rather over the top. Suffice to say that describing it as "a prayer unanswered" is a gross oversimplification that does not begin to do justice to the situation. Perhaps once I get to know you a bit better I'll send you the whole story via email.

    maybe some went through much more than you have.

    Oh, I'm certain of that. I'm nothing special in that regard. However, that others didn't loose their faith makes little difference to my life - we each respond in our own way to things.

    You have a problem here and there is absolutley nothing you can do about it.

    Then why should I try to do anything about it (as Laura implies "but He won't open the door - that's up to you.")? Contradictory messages here, though that's to be expected when they are coming from two different people (and not a singular holy spirit, again as Laura implies).

    Are you bitter?

    At times. Often more of tired, very tired. But that's just in relation to religious matters.

    God has not given up on you though you have on Him.

    He can talk to me any time he wants if he's what he's advertised to be.

    Laura, I encourage you not to take Nightmare on.

    Heh, yes fighting with me does little good. It simply reinforces existing opinions as you can see.

    From what I see he/she is searching for truth but looks for everything he/she sees as negative from Christians to use to go against Christ. Its as if to build some kind of case against Christ and Christianity.

    He btw. The case though is already built, rock solid and very damning. What I'm looking for is contradictory evidence - which must be examined critically of course. To what ends, I'm not entirely sure to be honest. I simply have the feeling that such an endeavor may fit into my overall goals at this time.

    I reserve the right, of course, to be wrong (about anything and everything).

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  56. Laura said...
    Nightmare, I totally accept the "beam in your own eye" as rebuke - it's the most honest thing you have said, I believe. I apologize for being critical of you when I am so far from the mark myself.

    Apology accepted Laura. Although we have our differences, I do like you. The idea that "it's the most honest thing you have said" however is somewhat disheartening though. I've been nothing but honest - to the best of my knowledge and capability - with you.

    but He won't open the door - that's up to you.

    You've mentioned that (as has the book) - what hasn't been mentioned however is precisely how one goes about doing that. (It's implied that such is detailed later in the book but I'm still only on Chapter Five, been busy) Can you please explain?

    God might be showing me something - that my "feeling" that we are not required to repent of sin in our lives is bogus. I'm talking about believers here - not the act of believing unto Salvation - a free gift.

    Two things - firstly, the book would seem to support the "no repentance necessary" view, just noting. Secondly, could you explain that second sentence a tad further? I'm not sure what you mean by it.

    But in my relationship with you, I have seen the need, or the necessity for repentance even if we are powerless to change ourselves. I'm seeing that unacknowledged sin in our lives (and I do mean OUR) acts like a closed door itself.

    In the face of an all powerful being how can that make a difference?

    I disagree of course with the idea that we are powerless to change ourselves. After all, did not you change tween this post and the last?

    I believe the prayer Paul said for you (though I never heard it) did more than anything anyone here can say or answer.

    You'd be surprised methinks what is going on behind the scenes here.

    Please give me credit for being able to read and understand what is fruitless.

    As notes, firstly the fruitfulness of something only matters if one expects a particular result. I find that often the most fruitful results come from unexpected avenues and at un-looked-for times.

    Secondly, the later two are out of context, and were stated in relation to very specific ideas. Methinks our habits of communication are partly the problem - I try to be as specific and precise in meaning about singular ideas (generally speaking), whereas you would seem to prefer to metaphorically paint with broader generalities. Hence misunderstanding is inevitable at times. As said though, I could be wrong.

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  57. This comic:

    http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=3352

    would seem to detail the difference in mindset on the matter of preventing tragedy. You guys would seem to prefer an approach like unto Seymour's (the dude in the halo).

    Me, I'm more the dive in and haul em out one at a time if necessary type of guy.

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  58. Nightmare, I think the problem with Christianity is that many have been taught that nothing wrong is going to happen, (which is a lie)so when something does go wrong it seems foreign.

    Lets reason Nightmare, God never said it was always going to be good, so He has been honest according to His word. We can plainly see that there is no contradiction there.

    Ok so you are upset because it didnt go well for you in a certain situation but you did not have a faith that told you it would always be good so how can you then be upset? You are not upset with the God of the bible you are upset with how you think the God of the bible should be it seems (I encourage to read Job).

    I spoke with lady yesterday who lost her son to gun play when he was 19. God asked her would you still serve me, she told God "If my son is alive I will serve you but if not I am done serving you". Anyway, if you will believe she said when she went into the room her son was dead but the glory of God was so rich, she said was actually happy. At the funeral she was laughihng and had to control it incase people got the wrong impression.

    I say this to say you really have no foot to stand on other that your bitterness. I do not discount your pain but my friend blaming God is not what you should do, turn to Him and let His grace give you the strength. I say again God has not given up on you.

    Check this scripture out.

    Revelation 6:9-11 (New Living Translation)

    9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony. 10 They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, HOW LONG before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?”

    These people were killed for Christ, He did not save them and they asked how long before He judged evil.

    Evil is not nice but God will judge in His time, its up to us to trust that He would do it.

    Be blessed!

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  59. Paul and Laura,

    For nightmare it comes down to the same thing as I discussed with Scott:

    Let's just say that God (the Christian God) doesn't exist (after all that's their claim isn't it?)...Now, if that's true, EXPLAIN the evil we see in the world in the context of why and it's purpose?...

    I wanna hear their apologetic. Nightmare serves some greek idol that he calims is his "friend". He also says she's saved his life...WHY isn't that idol active in erradicating evil?

    The only thing these people can come up with is supposed angles to try to debunk the goodness and righteousness of God and it's ineffective because we live by grace through faith. They have no clue as to what that means because if they did they'd realize hos ridiculous their arguments are...

    Grace is unmerrited. Sin and evil will be defeated thoroughly and as a token we have relationship within our hearts and the resurrection of Jesus which is teh capstone of the promise to eliminate, eradicat and overcome ALL evil including death.

    Now these radical complainers, all they have to do is yield their apologetic either for your idols or for the futility of your atheism...I am WAITING for the 3rd time that I've asked.

    Explain evil in the context of a non-Christian God.

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  60. "Let's just say that God (the Christian God) doesn't exist (after all that's their claim isn't it?)...Now, if that's true, EXPLAIN the evil we see in the world in the context of why and it's purpose?..."

    You know Pastor I want to see their anwser to that question also. I have also been waiting.

    The responses have been selective.

    I think the misunderstanding is that they believe we need to prove something and we dont. Everythihg we as Christians need to know is written so the onus of proof is on them actually.

    This is a quote I like.

    “A God who let us prove his existence would be an idol”

    Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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  61. One thing I've found is that the problem of evil is one of the best evidences that men didn't write the bible on their own or of their own accord...Men would have made the argument of non effect...

    Look, atheism was in existence almost 400 years BEFORE the NT was written. Epicurus's ideas and statements were common knowledge. Neither Jesus, the gospel writers, Paul or anyone else seeks to say that God would currently eradicate evil, or eradicate it in the present world...instead we see a host of scriptures promising us tribulation in the current world, but overcoming in the Kingdom to Come.

    The atheist criticises based on his own moral standards and not any standard that God has laid down in the word. In fact Gd says that the promises were for HIS children and NOT the children of darkness or evil, nonetheless HE rains on the just as well as unjust...this is a long trek back to my original statement...

    We live on grace:

    Romans 5:15~"But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift BY GRACE, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."

    Sin brought death, but the gift of God is eternal life:

    Romans 5:21~"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto ETERNAL LIFE by Jesus Christ our Lord."

    So yes you're absolutely right Paul, as a Christian we DON'T have to even answer the question, we're good in the promises of the Lord, BUT the atheist has to answer the questions, why suffering, what is it all about? What purpose does it have IF God does not exist.

    Then ask this even further, what is the reason for death? Where's is the genetic encoding for it? What is the DNA sequence that requires that we age and die? It doesn't exist EXCEPT for Sin that the Christian already is aware of the brings death to pass...

    So there's a lot here to uncover and this supposed problem for GOd is revealed as not really being a problem at all, unless you're an unbeliever, then I simply say YOU provide the best possible explanation for all suffering. Don't mind our laugh, as soon as you're finished we'll be OK...

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  62. Nightmare said "The idea that "it's the most honest thing you have said" however is somewhat disheartening though."

    Sorry...I should have said "most real". I know better than to write late, late at night. I get sloppy sometimes.

    "but He won't open the door - that's up to you.
    You've mentioned that (as has the book) - what hasn't been mentioned however is precisely how one goes about doing that."


    You just let Him into your heart. Lock, stock and barrel. Just make sure it's the Jesus of the Bible and not some "other jesus". Your creator, God in the flesh who died for you on the Cross and was raised from the dead. The Lord of Lords, God Almighty, here...THIS Jesus:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNJ5oi1cw2I

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  63. Nightmare could you explain that second sentence a tad further? I'm not sure what you mean by it.

    This?
    I'm talking about believers here - not the act of believing unto Salvation - a free gift.

    We are saved by Grace and Grace alone. As Pastor Harvey said, Grace is an unmerrited gift. The Gospel of Grace requires we do one thing only to receive God's unmerrieted Gift - Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, He died for your sins and was resurrected. Believe the Gospel for Salvation. If you really believe, ask Him to come into your heart, and He will save you.

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  64. Paul said...
    I spoke with lady yesterday who lost her son to gun play when he was 19....At the funeral she was laughihng and had to control it incase people got the wrong impression.

    Sick.

    I do not discount your pain but my friend blaming God is not what you should do,

    Without going into it further, given that his (I thought) action and then lack of action was the source of the issue I disagree wholeheartedly.

    I say again God has not given up on you.

    Then where is he? If he has not given up on me then where is the communication that HAS to be the first step in anything? And don't bother saying it's through you guys - you are only human and moreover not in harmony on several points. Further, you lot in general (save Laura, sometimes) having the opposite effect, making me want to wash my hands of the entire idea - Harvey's bluster in particular. The only reason I persist at this point is my Lady's urging.

    I think the misunderstanding is that they believe we need to prove something and we dont. Everythihg we as Christians need to know is written so the onus of proof is on them actually.

    You claim the existence of an all powerful, all knowing, all good god that created and rules everything, yet does nothing (and that's somehow ok). As extraordinary claims go, that's the mother of em all, and extraordinary claims (indeed any claim) lay the burden of proof at the foot of the claimant not the skeptic. Deny that and trying to shift the burden of proof profits you none and deals a lethal blow to your credibility.

    Aside from that, we (non-Christians) have provided reams of proof against the claims of Christianity. The Christian response amounts to stick your fingers in your ears and going "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" like a five year old. One cannot reason with fanatics.

    This is a quote I like.

    “A God who let us prove his existence would be an idol”


    HAHAHAHAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

    OMG that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard! Easy to see the motive behind but still so damn idiotic! LOL

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  65. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
    WHY isn't that idol active in erradicating evil?

    Simple. Not enough power. The pagan gods aren't all powerful, never claimed to be. That's your schtick preacher - you're the one that has to be the biggest boy on the block. And then you complain and get all indignant when people ask the obvious questions that your claims lead to.

    I am WAITING for the 3rd time that I've asked.

    Explain evil in the context of a non-Christian God.


    Wasn't aware that was aimed at me too, but then it isn't worth the effort of answering anyway. You'll just ignore our answers or twist our words to fit into whatever preconceived notion your already have. And then you'll complain and rant about it. To demonstrate:

    Why is there evil in the world? Cause shit happens. It's just that simple.

    If it's nature or coincidence causing shit to happen, the best we can do is avert or survive it. If it's an active agent (mankind, an animal, or a spirit being) causing the shit, then once it's survived or averted that agent can be dealt with to prevent a re-occurrence.

    But as to meaning or purpose, there is none. If evil has a meaning or purpose that means it is arranged or allowed to happen via universal micromanagement (with implies an agent behind it, which means said agent should be dealt with), and there is simply no evidence to that end.

    There, I've played your game. Twist and rant away.

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  66. Laura said...
    You just let Him into your heart. Lock, stock and barrel....
    We are saved by Grace and Grace alone. As Pastor Harvey said, Grace is an unmerrited gift. The Gospel of Grace requires we do one thing only to receive God's unmerrieted Gift - Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, He died for your sins and was resurrected. Believe the Gospel for Salvation. If you really believe, ask Him to come into your heart, and He will save you.


    Umm, did that already. Son of YHVH - check (sure, why not since can't know anyway). Died for sins and was rezzed (sure, spirit form resurrections are cake). Gospel of salvation - check presuming it includes the above and nothing else. Asked into heart - check.

    BUT, you said that wasn't good enough.....

    (side note - According to the chick in the video (and my friends btw), you had the wrong Jesus before your opinion on repentance changed. I guess that would mean you aren't saved either? Or maybe she/they aren't? Hmm, what's up here....)

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  67. Nightmare, being obnoxious is not becoming at all. Your scoffing and mocking is only a sign of how dark you heart is not of how smart or witty you are.

    I have nothing at all to prove and God doesnt ask me to do it, He tells me to show love in this world and tell others about the gospel.


    John 20"29
    29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    I dont care if you believe anything I say, your heart is darkened and stinks of self rightousness and sin, however that can be changed.

    You ask where God is? now thats funny, God is asking where you are as he did Adam after he sinned

    9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

    May God save your soul!

    Again He has not given up on you.

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  68. "Why is there evil in the world? Cause shit happens. It's just that simple."

    "If it's nature or coincidence causing shit to happen, the best we can do is avert or survive it."

    Now this is off the chain. If this is what you think that evil just happens then it makes no sense to be upset with those who do evil.

    In this statement there is absolutely no responsibilty to the individual who does evil, it "JUST HAPPENS". How can you be upset with it, if it just happens?

    Talk about idiotic and thats your own quote.

    Still love you though but I am sure you can do better than that.

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  69. One more comment as far proving God.

    Romans 8:24
    24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

    Hebrews 11
    1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    Mark 6:11
    11 And whoever[a] will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them.[b] Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”

    Not that this will make any impact on you because you cant really understand, but you can see that there is absolutely no burden of proof placed on the believer.

    I am not trying to get you to believe, that the Job of The Holy Spirit, I am just telling you what I know and hoping for your salvation.

    2 Corithians.
    3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

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  70. Nightmare,

    You said:"If it's nature or coincidence causing shit to happen, the best we can do is avert or survive it."

    Paul responded:Now this is off the chain. If this is what you think that evil just happens then it makes no sense to be upset with those who do evil...In this statement there is absolutely no responsibility to the individual who does evil, it "JUST HAPPENS". How can you be upset with it, if it just happens?

    You noticed that also Paul? That was the silliest among the many that he and most critics render regarding this sort of subject.

    Who are you mad at if evil "just happens"? This also has hints of making evil eternal...what kind of farce is that and what kind of senselessness for one to hold claiming some sort of superior position? Totally useless to addressing or even coming close to resolving any situation...

    Then on top of that Nightmare says this regarding why his goddess is powerless to do anything regarding solving evil:

    "Simple. Not enough power. The pagan gods aren't all powerful, never claimed to be."

    Well no kidding! Not enough power because maybe they HAVE NO POWER at all...and make no promises or claims to even be able to do anything regarding evil IE;they ARE NOT GOD or anything that resembles it...they're a construct of men...that should seal the deal but for the radical it won't...

    Whereas God promises to eradicate all evil and has done so as a token of a future realization through the resurrection of Jesus...death, hell and the grave were all defeated and they all will be cast into the "lake of fire" indicating their destruction...

    Our present condition is that sin and evil has been defeated within us hearts and minds through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus...in position we have defeated evil, in practice evil exists in the world and yet has it's grip on our flesh, but by the grace of God we are overcomers...

    YOUR GOD is a construct of the mind but I commend you for at least addressing the issue...but as only can be expected you have no answer to what is addressed and what answer you give is meaningless...

    Let's not complain any more unless you begin to complain at your god's inability to provide any solution to the problem...Let's complain about that...None of us know the mind and the plan of God in it's fullness, that we clearly can admit, however God has PROMISED us that waling by faith, we'll suffer no ultimate disappointment.

    We all want things to be better in life but without Christ there is no hope for better and certainly no promise as you admit, so why be mad?

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  71. Harvey wrote: You major in trying to find fault especially when you have no bais for an argument…

    Harvey,

    First, we are inundated with ideas and concepts on a daily basis. Either we accept them blindly or we analyze them for possible flaws and faults. Since I'm guessing you do not accept everything you hear as accurate, even you do this to some degree.

    Second, if my argument is baseless, then you should have no problem pointing out the "flaws" in my argument, insisted of merely making an assertion to this effect.

    I don't really care about your criticism of my basis for understanding what GOd has clearly communicated...His word as communicated stands and withstands all tests and scruitiny much greater than yours…

    Is this just a canned response you give when you either don't understand an argument or do not have a substantial response? That God supposedly has communicated something which appears to be a contradiction is a red flag. Either the contradiction needs to be resolved or what has been communicated is in question.

    To clarify, is God merely more powerful and smarter than we are? On a scale from one to ten, are we a 2 and God is a 9? I'm guessing you'd disagree and say that God's ability is immeasurable. But why is this the case? How can anyone or any thing have a property that is infinite?

    Theologists claim it is God's infinite nature that gives him infinite abilities. Or to rephrase, God has infinite power and knowledge because he has an infinite nature.

    You might reply that this is irrelevant. However, it is similar to theological claim you've made in your series on evolution: Human beings are "special" because God made them in final form. You go on to reinforce this by suggesting that, unless God created us in final form, we are merely animals.

    So, in each case, there are specific causal chains which are deemed necessary to reach a specific outcome. And you clearly think theological details are important as you've trotted them out time again when it suits your agenda.

    Which brings me back to my observation: If one of the consequences of God's infinite nature is his infinite power and knowledge, then this same infinite nature would have consequences on the rest of his properties, such as his tolerance and ability to forgive, etc. Otherwise, you're merely choosing to think God's infinite nature has consequences when it suits your religious beliefs.

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  72. Harvey wrote: For YOU, let's just say that God doesn't exist (after all that's your claim isn't it?)...Now, EXPLAIN the evil we see in the world in the context of why and it's purpose?…

    First, as I've said several times, I cannot rule out the existence of a non-material being that does nothing. It's impossible by definition. However, you seem to suggest that God created everything with his omnipotent will and allows situations like this to occur so we realize how dependent we are on him.

    This is the sort of thing we'd expect this from finite humans, not a perfectly sufficient being.

    For example, this is the sort of juvenile behavior I exhibited while I was in my early twenties. Specifically, I was working in information technology and had a crush on a coworker. While I did not sabotage her computer, I sometimes wasn't quite as proactive as I could have, which ultimately required her to come to me for assistance.

    To be clear, I wan't inventing problems. She, and a large number of other workers really were dependent on me for their day to day operations needs. However, it was wrong to exploit this dependence as it make her job more difficult for my own personal gain.

    Furthermore, was I really gaining anything or was I just acting out of ignorance? Is constantly being reminded that someone is dependent on me a relationship? While any interaction with her was better than nothing, it wasn't mutual - it was out of necessity and based on manipulation. It was my ignorance to what a real relationship was that made me thing I was actually gaining something.

    Do you really think God is so ignorant about relationships that he would allow bad things to happen so we'd have to come to him? Do you really think fended attention is the sign of a healthy relationship? Is this the kind of thing you'd expect an all knowing, perfect being to do?

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  73. [continued]

    Second, I define evil as an ignorance that manifests itself as the idea that we can somehow harm one or more people without harming ourselves or everyone else. It's the illusion that our options in a particular situation are limited to zero-sum outcomes. It's the false belief that someone else must loose so one can gain, and that their loss someone isolated from everyone else.

    However, unlike supernatural evil, we are not powerless against ignorance. Nor is it the sole responsibility of a all knowing all powerful being to eradicate it. Instead, it is the responsibility of each and everyone of us. To suggest otherwise is irresponsible and spreads even more ignorance.

    To use the topic and hand, rape just isn't about sex. It's about power and degradation. Sex just happens to be because the most intimate act, which is what makes it so traumatizing.

    These boys have harmed the lives of many people, including their own, because they thought the best way to feel better about themselves is to degrade others. They are ignorant to how their actions effect themselves, the victim and the people around them. It's a tragedy based on false beliefs about what will make them happy.

    Furthermore, even if they are not caught, it's likely that they really won't feel better about themselves. Or if they do, they it's an illusion as this false sense of "achievement" will prevent them from achieving more fulfilling challenges or and likely result in dysfunctional relationships in the future. They just don't realize it.

    Even the Bible seems to suggest that ignorance is the root of evil, through it's portrayal of the battle between God, who is supposedly all powerful, and Satan, who is simply more powerful than those who he oppresses.

    If anyone could know the extent of of God's powers, it was Satan, as he was supposedly God's right hand man. However, apparently he either thinks he can defeat an omnipotent being, or that a few millennia of happiness will be somehow worth an eternity of torture. Talk about ignorance!

    Does this sound like the kind of super evil intelligence who is, at this very moment, supposedly commanding vast legions of evil forces in an orchestrated and elaborate attempt to corrupt humanity? Really?

    In my opinion, the more we know about how our actions will effect ourselves and others, the less "evil" there will be in the world. And dogmatic religious beliefs often are bent on opposing or suppressing information that conflicts with their beliefs - as if ignorance is somehow makes the situation better.

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  74. Pastor, agree 100%.

    Nightmare has no reasonable answer so he says it just happens but yet he wants to see people who commit gross acts, hung, shot, beaten and all that.

    Nightmare so your god is not all powerful, even if your way is right wouldnt that god have to be the creator or surely there is a group of gods that align themselves to the one you believe in so that they can take care of any situation in your life. How can your one god be insufficient?

    the only god thats insufficient is the devil. he is the one that "saved" you to turn you against Christ. His will be punished severly for that too.


    Scott, we are all living in this time also, we as Christians suffer evil also but yet still believe in Christ. Both you and nightmare behave as if we are in a different world or something. Listen faith in Christ is not for the faint hearted, wimps, weaklings you better make up your mind to be strong in this because its not always easy but you gotta endure.

    You think we are self righteous but in Christ you have to come to the point where you realize you are a wicked sinnner and helpless to do anything about it. You stink and are on your way to hell and no amount of good works will save you, thats quite humbling. There can be no pride/self righteousness at all, if there is you dont get it.

    In other words you come to Christ saying you are wrong not right, realizing that your salvation is a GIFT, while every other way religion or mindset says I can be good and get into heaven if there is one, my WORKS. I am sure even you think if there is a heaven you will get there because you are good, thats the biggest deception ever! The heart of man is wicked, thats why we have evil.

    Question, our book is clear on evil in this world what do you base you stance on?

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  75. Paul wrote: Listen faith in Christ is not for the faint hearted, wimps, weaklings you better make up your mind to be strong in this because its not always easy but you gotta endure.

    Paul, saying only God can destroy evil IS the easy way out.

    Instead, I'm suggesting that "evil" is a manifestation of ignorance. Therefore, we can do something about it. That you must claim a supernatural evil being is running around causing bad things to happen, so you can continue believing God exists, is ignorance.

    You think we are self righteous but in Christ you have to come to the point where you realize you are a wicked sinnner and helpless to do anything about it. You stink and are on your way to hell...

    Huh?

    I guess we've reached the point where you start making assertions and calling people names?

    In other words you come to Christ saying you are wrong not right, realizing that your salvation is a GIFT, while every other way religion or mindset says I can be good and get into heaven if there is one, my WORKS. I am sure even you think if there is a heaven you will get there because you are good, thats the biggest deception ever! The heart of man is wicked, thats why we have evil.

    Paul, in case it's not clear, I don't know if we will "survive" physical death. However, based on what we do know, it seems very unlikely. As such, we would know even less about any potential requirements for surviving.

    This is like saying, if human beings could fly, then you KNOW they could only do so by performing some specific action, like flaping their arms. Only then could a human being fly. However, we do not know if human flight is possible, let alone that flapping their ams would be the only way it could occur.

    Therefore, to say we MUST do anything in particular to reach a place we know so little about seems quite premature, including good works. Nor do I know where you might have reached this conclusion from my comments here.

    Personally, I think you're deceiving yourself by thinking you know how to get to heaven, when we don't even know if anyone can survive death in the first place.

    Paul wrote: Question, our book is clear on evil in this world what do you base you stance on?

    What do I base it on? Real world observations.

    Are you suggesting that these kids didn't think raping this girl would make them feel better about themselves? Do you think they actually feel better after the fact? Do you think they "got" what they expected? Please think about this carefully.

    Instead, it's likely their ignorance to the outcome of their actions has turned not only the victim's world upside down, but it has turned their worlds upside down as well. And if they do feel better, they are fooling themeless, as what little boost they might feel comes at a huge expense. They simply do not realize what they are missing out on.

    Or, perhaps you would rather ignore the obvious, so you can place the blame on an evil supernatural being, who must exist to support your belief system?

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  76. Paul wrote: Question, our book is clear on evil in this world

    Paul, I do not understand your point, as clarity does not guarantee accuracy. Just because someone "clearly" says something to you, doesn't mean it's factual. Nor do we appear to share the same definition of "clear."

    First, the Bible really isn't very clear on evil, as it depicts God committing genocide, demanding people be stoned to death for working on the Sabbath, etc. That you happen to believe that God was somehow justified in doling these things does not mean the bible actually "clear" on the subject.

    Second, I could clearly tell you the time is 12 hours, 43 minutes and 23 seconds. However, just because I spoke clearly, this doesn't mean I actually know what time it is. I could have merely thought I know what time it was, or even clearly spoken what I knew to be false.

    I could write up extremely clear and detailed instructions on how to disarm a bomb. However, just because these instructions were clear doesn't mean the bomb would not explode should if follow them to the letter. Just because I'm great at making a clear list of instructions, doesn't mean I have a clue how to disarm a bomb.

    In this case, mistaking clarity for accuracy would be deadly.

    So, I don't really know why Christians such as yourself attempt to use biblical "clarity" as some kind of foundation for their claims, given that it's based on a fallacious argument.

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  77. Scott,

    You said:"First, as I've said several times, I cannot rule out the existence of a non-material being that does nothing."

    What that is is straddling the fence and saying nothing that adds to the convo...I said explain evil in the context that there is no God. What is the purpose and why? Since you criticize God who is contrary to your assessment clear on the subject in both the current and future condition and we don't have to justify God's actions of Grace EXPLAIN what suffering and evil means without God...

    You said:"However, you seem to suggest that God created everything with his omnipotent will and allows situations like this to occur so we realize how dependent we are on him."

    NO, there is no "suggestion", that is EXACTLY what I say. There is nothing without God period...What you see he set in motion and it exists and performs by his power and grace and we live by his grace. Evil is simply the corruption of the good that God set forth from the beginning in fact, his goodness is the only reason that you can identify evil.

    You said this regarding God and evil that we see:"However, it was wrong to exploit this dependence as it make her job more difficult for my own personal gain...Is constantly being reminded that someone is dependent on me a relationship?...Do you really think God is so ignorant about relationships that he would allow bad things to happen so we'd have to come to him?"

    You're warped. Bad things happen because of SIN and the existence of life being tainted by it. The most minute cellular structure suffers from the effects of sin. that's why there is death at all. God not allowing bad things to happen was a past reality and a future occurrence. This time in between is called the rime of redemption, where we are allowed the time in this current existence and dimension to undertake the choice of living in that future expectation. The materialist can't see past the door, but the person of faith can easily.

    You said:First, the Bible really isn't very clear on evil, as it depicts God committing genocide, demanding people be stoned to death for working on the Sabbath, etc.

    A bleeding heart such as you with a subjective view of evil based on whatever is en vogue at the present hold to a statement like this without ever considering anything close to justice.

    Everyone that was killed under the law was not merely overtaken by chance or circumstance as you wish to interpret the text...from the replacement of Canaan which enjoyed over 400 years of moral debauchery, to those condemned for killing God's justice was clear and reigned supreme all throughout the OT...the question is why didn't he continue his justice in the NT and the ONLY reason for that is not because you're so smart to out think God it's because of GRACE and that through Jesus and what he did for all humanity when he atoned for sin. So it's fist shakers like you that exceedingly push the grace of God but one day you'll die ALONE like all of us then the reality sets in of what you've done shaking a fist at God and daring him to fulfill his promises...believe me HE will do so...

    You said:"I could have merely thought I know what time it was, or even clearly spoken what I knew to be false."

    Believe me God uttered no false information, so a Christian has no worry about that but you do...

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  78. Scott,

    You said:"Instead, I'm suggesting that "evil" is a manifestation of ignorance. Therefore, we can do something about it.

    What in the world? Where did you get that from? There are different types of evil that exist. Two of them are natural evil and moral evil. Neither are contained or prevented by knowledge. This is why a man knowing that he will loose his whole family, position and job if caught in an illicit relationship cheats anyway...why a senator, Governor or even Presidential candidate says he "didn't have sex with that woman" some have children out of wedlock, even others claim to be on a hiking trip when they know they are lying and what the consequences will be...they don't do this out of ignorance, they do it because of SIN!

    Then tsunamis and natural disasters, can we stop them if we know everything about them? What ignorance can be dispelled to wart them off? NOTHING...knowledge doesn't keep evil in check, only God can do this and yet in this world under our current existence we have that tribulation of evil...

    You said:Paul, in case it's not clear, I don't know if we will "survive" physical death. However, based on what we do know, it seems very unlikely...Therefore, to say we MUST do anything in particular to reach a place we know so little about seems quite premature, including good works.
    Personally, I think you're deceiving yourself by thinking you know how to get to heaven, when we don't even know if anyone can survive death in the first place."


    The only way you don't know is because you don't follow...it's like Columbus sitting on the seashore in a boat ready to go saying, "I don't know what's out there, I think I might just stay here" Listen, he'll never know or find anything unless he gets up the nerve to go through the challenges it will take for him to find what he's seeking...atheists and most agnostics such as yourself just don't have the nerve to go on that journey because you're too short-sighted...all you see is material and that's what you trust, that's why I call material and people you see and trust that reaffirm your materialism your gods. You don't think it's a religious construct but to all Christians it's as plain to see as the nose on your face.

    You said:"Are you suggesting that these kids didn't think raping this girl would make them feel better about themselves?"

    These young rapists were relative moralists only thinking about morality in the terms of their understandings and own personal desires. NOONE beliving in moral absolutes and following those standards would have done such a deed.

    Thanks to the amorilst crowd these young men didn't see the error of their ways while they were engaged in the act, they acted like the animals that you claim they are. They choose not to function in the context of being a higher sentient being taht God created and gave them the capacity to be...

    In fact, you god Dawkins says that their actions could very well be right...who are we to judge?

    That's YOUR godless and immoral system at work. We know the TRUTH and that truth gave us a token and pledge through HIS word communicated to us and for us. God DOESN'T exist to support our belif, we exist to SERVE HIS truth...as usual you've got the cart before the horse.

    Anyway!

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  79. Paul said...
    Nightmare, being obnoxious is not becoming at all. Your scoffing and mocking is only a sign of how dark you heart is not of how smart or witty you are.

    OH HO! So when I (an evil, stinky, poopyhead non-Christian) scoff and mock it's a sign of my dark dark widdle heart, but when Mr. Perfect Harvey mocks and belittles people with damn near every post it's all "AMEN AMEN Hallelujah!". I see the game now. You "sir" are nothing but a hypocrite and a liar who only wishes to serve his own ego by imagining yourself so special you can do no wrong or be held accountable in any way.

    I dont care if you believe anything I say, your heart is darkened and stinks of self righteousness

    Pot, meet kettle. Also, project much?

    You ask where God is? now thats funny, God is asking where you are as he did Adam after he sinned

    Oooo, nice NON-answer. Especially since you're talking about an ALL KNOWING being not knowing where I am. Thanks though for proving that there is nothing to learn from you so soon. Saves me alot of wasted time finding out.

    Now this is off the chain. If this is what you think that evil just happens then it makes no sense to be upset with those who do evil.

    HAH! So if a dog bites you you don't get pissed at it huh? Or if someone were to kill one of your kids, that's ok with you I guess. The lack of an arrogant humanocentric meaning for evil in now way removes sensible reactions to it. Except maybe in your little world where everything must revolve around Paul.

    you can see that there is absolutely no burden of proof placed on the believer.

    In your delusional mind maybe. The rest of the world disagrees, and your arrogant little refusals are worthless in terms of convincing anyone of anything.

    Nightmare has no reasonable answer

    What possible answer can be more reasonable than natural occurrence? Occam's Razor and all. (Rhetorical question, I fully realize that you're to full of yourself to begin to understand).

    Nightmare so your god is not all powerful, even if your way is right wouldnt that god have to be the creator or surely there is a group of gods that align themselves to the one you believe in so that they can take care of any situation in your life. How can your one god be insufficient?

    Is there even a solid question in that? I can see parts of several but damn what a mess. But in answer to what I think you're asking, I'm not going to bother fully explaining my personal beliefs here or to you. For one, Harvey would have a fit about me preaching demons or some such nonsense, and for two you wouldn't understand it anyway.

    he is the one that "saved" you to turn you against Christ.

    Believe what you wish arrogant fool. I know my own life far better than you ever will.

    You stink and are on your way to hell

    And you're a poopyhead that sniffs his own butt. Nah nah. (ain't it fun to play the five year old? - again, rhetorical).

    But you forget, I totally like believe in Christ and his saving death and resurrection. So yeah, there's my bus pass, I go where I please.

    But suffer fools well I do not. I wash my hands of you.

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  80. District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

    Who are you mad at if evil "just happens"?


    Gee, maybe the individuals that do it? Hmmm, ya think? (damn, this place be full of rocket scientists it seems *rollseyes*)

    Not enough power because maybe they HAVE NO POWER at all

    Whatever. As I said, twist away liar. It's what you're trained to do anyway ain't it. For the record though, anyone with a brain knows the "not all powerful" is NOT the same as "has no power". You're the one that needs to be the biggest dog on block, not I. I don't feel the need to compensate for something in the same fashion as you it seems.

    And as for complaining, I'll complain all I wish. At least my gods (constructs or not, I care not - Chaos magic Harvo, look it up) have good reasons for not solving or preventing problems. What's keeping your ego-creation omnipotent alter-ego from doing so Harvey? Why is super Harvey sitting here yakking with stinky poopyhead me when he could be out praying the world into utopia?

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  81. Paul said...
    You were once a Christian? if I had a dollar for everytime I heard that....."Christianity" because when Jesus gets a hold of man they live in misery if they backslide (from experience).

    I didn't notice this post before. So I feel I must offer one last parting shot here, for such a "friend".

    So, "friend", you think you know my life better than me? You think you know it all and got me all figured out? That I could never ever have believed what super special "humble" you do because I'm different than you now? Well, piece of advice. GO SCREW YOURSELF YOU SWINE.

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  82. Nightmare and Scott, I think you're looking at this from only one angle. Reading both your posts, someone said something that reminded me that my God seems to be the God of the 11th hour. Only after I have done everything in my power, and I have nothing, nada, zip that can rescue me from whatever situation I'm in, do I get to that place where I am empty of myself and ask/tell God "You've got it - there is nothing I can do".

    (Don't get me wrong - I pray all along but like I said - sometimes God is the God of the 11th hour)

    Anyway, remembering this, it also reminded me of when Lazarus died. Jesus heard Lazarus was sick and didn't go to him. Two days later, Jesus knew that Lazarus was dead, and told his disciples He was GLAD he didn't go to him. Why?
    (John 11)

    The two Mary's chewed out Jesus good for not showing up in time. So what does Jesus say to Mary?
    (verse 40)

    So here are two more that you can add to your list of the childishness of God, as you say. That same God that is holding your very neutrons and protons together, the designer of your circulatory system that pumps blood to your brain to keep it from dying so with that 10% you use, you can muster up criticism of Him.

    But see...believers understand exactly what Jesus was doing because we have all experienced it ourselves, and we have never been left wanting. How could we not give Glory where Glory is due? Not only that, but afterwards, having gone to the 11th or 12 hour with God, we are changed. That's why you can't shake a true Christian's faith with anything, because God is so active in our lives in such an individual, personal level. And not only though the struggles, but the good stuff too. Jesus wants us to enjoy our life and to have joy. I can tell you I'm the only one in my large family not on anti-depressants, and I get to hear from near-strangers that when they see me "I'm always smiling", and I don't even realize it. Y'all should, if you had any sense (lol), want what I have.

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  83. Laura - I'll be more than happy to continue corresponding with you (indeed I'd like to recount something your post reminded me of), but my tolerance for the so-called "humility" - arrogance off the scales in truth - of these two has again reached it's limit. For individuals that claim to love Jesus so much they do him profound disservice. Thusly, I'll see you elsewhere.

    And Harvey don't bother asking me back a third time. I know your tune and see that nothing will change it, and I flat out refuse to be the sounding board for your ego any longer.

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  84. Scott and Nightmare, I did not call you all stink or whatever, read again. I said anyone that comes to Christ has to realize that this is the state they are in.

    The Apostle Paul said,

    "Romans 7:24
    24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"

    Hope that clears it up.

    Nightmare, your responses are self revealing. I really dont have to say a thing.

    Show me where I said Amen, Amen, Hallelujah in response to any comment on here. On another note I have a right to agree or disagree with what I want, obviously you have proven that the same with you.

    You know how to give it but you cant take it, didnt you first use the word idiotic and behave like a little kid so what are upset about.

    As far as you heart being darkened by sin, all of us have dark hearts before Christ, that is just a fact and that is why you dont recieve.

    "Ephesians 4:18
    18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;"

    This not about doing wrong its more about rejecting Christ. Even Christians make mistakes.

    As far as the name calling thanks for all the compliments!

    My aim is not to offend but show truth.

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  85. Nightmare,

    If you cannot respond to me about your god then isnt it you who is confused? What is the purpose of a god that is not all powerful?

    does your god belong to a group of gods?

    If you look at ancient greek mythology there are different ones who have power over different things.

    What specific things does your god have power over and what is it that your god requires of you?

    is your god eternal?

    does your god give salvation?

    is your god holy and righteous?

    does all humanity have to bow before your god?

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  86. Nightmare,

    Grow up, we are having a discussion and people might say things you dont like, but dont play the victim especially when your response to me was obnoxious.
    Stop trying to play the victime!

    Dude, you gave up on Christ so dont be mad at me! If you knew Christ for real, why have you gone to worship some kind of goddess? people in this world are being maryted for Christ, changing their faith to Christ even though they know they could face possible death and they will definately be ostracized but yet they do it and dont turn back! Look if "I" turn from Christ, I deserve nothing less than hell fire because He did it all on the cross for me.

    1 John 2:19-20
    19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    My love for you is no less but cut the foolishness, we are all adults and things will be said that others may find offensive or disagree with but thats life. No one here is trying to put anyone down but I have definatley seen that in some of your comments.

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  87. Nightmare,

    First don't expect to criticize my God without your god receiving similar scrutiny...that seems to be the point where you always crash. In fact I haven's said anything negative about your deity except that she doesn't have all power which so far as gods go equates to having no power at all.

    You admit, that your god makes no promise regarding the eradication of evil. YOU admit that your god has no power to stop it. YOU admit these things regarding your god, why are you so upset when it's pointed out that your screaming against the God of the bible only displays that you don't know what he communicates. You said you were a Christian, but obviously you were one that didn't understand a basic bible premise that tribulation exists in this world until IT passes away...evil is set in motion and can and will be destroyed...that the PROMISE we have as Christians and neither you nor Scott seemed to have ever been presented with anything like that, instead you follow the same debunked reasoning of the Epicurean crowd, which not even the bible writers were interested in addressing although the thoughts were around hundreds of years before Jesus.

    As I said this further PROVES that men didn't write the bible and that God was in control...men would have contrived and answer to address current concerns. God did no such thing. He provided and solution consistent to what was always said and thought, that there was a future time called JUDGEMENT in which all evil, including the evil of man would be judged and rectified....

    As a SIGN of that promise, here's Jesus, with the ability to display power over all that we call evil naturally and morally. He invokes power over sickness, disease, hunger, poverty, pain, naturally destructive elements, and ultimately death itself...

    That's why you and other like you are decent and good people, (I'm sure) but you are spiritual cases and bound by blindness...

    You have NO answer or CLUE as to why evil exists or what to do with it. Your belief system doesn't even address it. GOd provides those answers and you claim "I don't like it" how wimpey is that?

    You said:"At least my gods (constructs or not, I care not - Chaos magic Harvo, look it up) have good reasons for not solving or preventing problems."

    What good reason could there be for not solving evil ultimately from a god? What are the reasons communicated by your god?

    You said:"And Harvey don't bother asking me back a third time. I know your tune and see that nothing will change it, and I flat out refuse to be the sounding board for your ego any longer"

    Look man, like I said, don't expect to not have any contrasts drawn especially when you claim that the God of the bible is wrong...stop crying about it. If we cried at the critics of the biblical God you'd have a fit. You make claims, they are fair game to examine and bring under scrutiny just like you do. It's funny how it's never arrogance as long as the criticism is leveled at the true and living God, but it's always arrogance when we're placing the proper perspectives on the false gods and constructs of men.

    Get off the offense horse, if we're not offended at the garbage you say, why should you be offended when we set forth a declaration of truth? Get real.

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  88. As I stated earlier, the critic has no answer to the problem of evil and admits in the formulation of the question that IF God exists he would be good and that goodness would be sufficient to overcome evil.

    The Christian sets forth the clear and consistent scriptural answer that God is good and that display of goodness contains a promise for the full eradication of evil.

    The critic is mad because he wants evil done away with right now, when the only problem with that is that if God did that right now he's have to start with THEM, by either destroying the person or destroying their free will...These guys can't see that and if they do they reject it, sooooo PLACE a better alternative on the table and after almost 90 comments and direct questions for them to do so, they do no such thing, they only take their ball and go home and call us arrogant...Do tell!

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  89. scott said

    "Paul wrote: Question, our book is clear on evil in this world what do you base you stance on?

    What do I base it on? Real world observations."

    Real world observations? the problem with that is that a hundred people observing the same thing can have 100 different views on that observation so you see you havent said anything at all. This is based on your perception of these happenings in the world.

    This will not suffice, we need an ABSOLUTE reason for evil, something that is a standard that all men must be accountable to. The bible is clear, so what do you base you stance on that is absolute?

    Scott you said

    "So, I don't really know why Christians such as yourself attempt to use biblical "clarity" as some kind of foundation for their claims, given that it's based on a fallacious argument."

    Well, what else do you want me as a Christian to use? its what I believe. If i use anything else it would be based on my finite knowledge, which is what you are doing. You dont know and you just cannot admit that you dont, so you are using your own wisdom to explain something that you have no clue about.

    Since the Christian answer is deceptive, what is yours? Thats the point, what concrete evidence do you have that you are right? since proof is what we need?


    Nightmare said,HAH! So if a dog bites you you don't get pissed at it huh? Or if someone were to kill one of your kids, that's ok with you I guess. The lack of an arrogant humanocentric meaning for evil in now way removes sensible reactions to it. Except maybe in your little world where everything must revolve around Paul.

    To even direct that question to me is silly,thats for you to answer you are the one that said evil just happens, I will be upset because I know evil doesnt just happen.

    To mention a dog is ridiculous, unless you are saying that we have dogs that are both good and evil, the dog bites because of an instinct.

    If someone kills my child I will be upset because it didnt JUST HAPPEN, it was the persons WILL but for you it is not the person who did evil, it just happened.

    So the sniper that was executed the other day should not have been by your explanation of evil. He just HAPPENED to get some rifles, just HAPPENED to transform his car so he could shoot through the trunk, he just HAPPENED to influence the young man and that young man just HAPPENED to allow that, he just HAPPENED to drive around shooting people. Since all this just HAPPENS what on earth is there to be upset about? IT JUST HAPPENED! no?

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  90. Scott said

    "Second, I define evil as an ignorance that manifests itself as the idea that we can somehow harm one or more people without harming ourselves or everyone else.It's the false belief that someone else must loose so one can gain, and that their loss someone isolated from everyone else.

    However, unlike supernatural evil, we are not powerless against ignorance. Nor is it the sole responsibility of a all knowing all powerful being to eradicate it. Instead, it is the responsibility of each and everyone of us. To suggest otherwise is irresponsible and spreads even more ignorance.

    To use the topic and hand, rape just isn't about sex. It's about power and degradation. Sex just happens to be because the most intimate act, which is what makes it so traumatizing.


    If someone takes their own life would you say its evil? what about the person who is a drunkard, takes drugs, mutilates there own body, evil? In these cases the person is harming themselves but many people suffer because of that ones actions towards themselves.

    The person who drives drunk can kill someone but that is not what they are trying to do, is that good or evil based on your definition? they are also not ignorant to the fact that they shouldnt drive drunk but who are they trying to have power over or trying to harm without harming themselves?

    What about the women who prostitutes herself? she is not trying to hurt anyone but actually trying to give pleasure so she can get paid. Many married men involve themselves in prostitution but the prostitute is not trying to hurt their wives and the wife may never find out, maybe the prostitute doesnt even know they are married, would any of this be evil? what about if she sleeps with only unmarried men?

    Is pornography, beastiality evil?

    You have a homosexual person telling my child that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality is that evil? The two people in homosexuality are not trying to harm anyone they just want to live, they are not ignorant at all. However even outside of Christ I think this is evil, do I have a right to say that and not to want my children to be influenced by this evil or am I forced to accept it since they are not ignorant and are not trying to harm or have power over anyone.
    I can tell you in these instances that many people are hurt too (family members), is it evil though?

    The woman who aborts her baby, is she ignorant or is she trying to have power over her unborn child and hurt them? is that the case, is this evil or not?

    Where is the mindset, of having control, losing and gaining and ingnorace in these instances.

    please explain.

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  91. Harvey wrote: What that is is straddling the fence and saying nothing that adds to the convo…

    That you refuse to even explore the possibility that your definition of God could be wrong doesn't mean I'm not adding to the conversation. It's just a conversation you'd rather pretend we're not having.

    Since you criticize God who is contrary to your assessment clear on the subject in both the current and future condition and we don't have to justify God's actions of Grace EXPLAIN what suffering and evil means without God…

    Again, I'm questioning how you've come to the conclusion that God is responsible for the SPECIFIC things you claim he supposedly did, based on the properties you claim he supposedly exhibits. I'm noting that they do not add up. While you might be willing to accept them on blind faith, I'm not. Nor do you accept what other people say regarding what their God supposedly did on faith either.

    Given the possible options you are presented, YOU make the choice based on how YOU think God should behave. This is despite the fact that you accuse others of doing the very same thing.

    You're warped. Bad things happen because of SIN and the existence of life being tainted by it. The most minute cellular structure suffers from the effects of sin. that's why there is death at all.

    Harvey, you're painting an incomplete and conflicting picture.

    First, you spent three blog posts claiming human beings are just too complex to have formed naturally. Instead, you suggest that ONLY an omnipotent being could be responsible, and that being was the Christian God.

    But then you suggest that "sin" just appeared out of nowhere, and God is in no way responsible for it. How could these two claims both be accurate?

    Second, a desire to disobey God's supposed laws cannot change cellular structures. Unless Adam and Eve were somehow omnipotent, they could not cause the changes you've described. Instead, according to your theology, the only being capable of doing this would be God. To deny God's role in this chain of events would be delusional.

    Furthermore, If sin has the ability to change cellular structures so death was possible, then why can sin simply reverse the process and prevent death? Again, because It cannot do any of these things. In other words, sin DOES NOT play the roll you're trying to depict.

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  92. God not allowing bad things to happen was a past reality and a future occurrence. This time in between is called the rime of redemption, where we are allowed the time in this current existence and dimension to undertake the choice of living in that future expectation. The materialist can't see past the door, but the person of faith can easily.

    First, if everything was perfect BEFORE the fall, then God wouldn't need not take any action to prevent anything bad from happening. It's only AFTER God omnipotently chanced the world that he would need to step in to prevent things bad things from happening.

    Second, do you think God is capable of eventually eradicating evil? If so, this means that God has the ability, at this very moment, to prevent these kind of things from happening. If he can't, then why do you believe he will in the future?

    As such, God would be intentionally allowing bad things to happen to "remind" us about how much we need him. Otherwise, he couldn't intentionally decide to destroy evil at some point in the future. it's really that simple. Again, is this the kind of behavior you expect from a perfect being?

    A bleeding heart such as you with a subjective view of evil based on whatever is en vogue at the present hold to a statement like this without ever considering anything close to justice.

    Harvey, whether God was acting fairly or not is NOT what I'm questioning. Please pay attention to the context of my comment.

    Paul said God's word is clear about moral issues. I'm simply pointing out that the results of God's supposed actions, as presented across the entire Bible, make his message unclear.

    Let's take tax law, for example. It may be necessary to create a large number of complex exceptions to be fair to taxpayers over a wide range of incomes. So, while the results would be fair, they would also be unclear and difficult to understand. This was the point I was trying to make. That you think his actions are justified does not make them actually clear or easy to understand.

    Furthermore, one would think an all powerful and all knowing being would conceder how his actions over a long period of time would appear unclear and confusing and take appropriate actions to prevent it. Instead, what we see is exactly what we'd expect if the Bible was a compilation of separate writings by human beings.

    Believe me God uttered no false information, so a Christian has no worry about that but you do…

    Believe you? Why should I believe you, instead of a Muslim, Hindu or even a non-theist? Why should I believe you when I've shown time and time again that you're willing to speak out on things you know very little about?

    Want proof? Go back to your posts on evolution. We'll find you posting "research" by professor Behe, which you claim refutes the idea that humans shared a common ancestor with great apes. But, unknown to you, Behe wrote that he does think we DO share a common ancestor in one of his books.

    I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. Either you're a comedic genius, who is creating an elaborate parody on Christianity, or you simply do not have a clue what your talking about.

    Do you call this a response? Again, if I created a clear set of instructions to defuse a bomb, does that mean they are accurate? No it does not. So, even if the Bible was clear on morality, which it's not, then why should we think it's accurate?

    Because you know God doesn't lie because he said he doesn't lie? Really?

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  93. Harvey wrote: There are different types of evil that exist. Two of them are natural evil and moral evil.

    Evil, in my definition, requires sentience. Natural disasters are not caused by intelligent agents. Therefore the term evil does not apply. We do not call a rock that succumbs to the force of gravity, rolls down a hill and kills someone, "evil."

    This is why a man knowing that he will loose his whole family, position and job if caught in an illicit relationship cheats anyway…

    The man cheats because he mistakenly thinks cheating, and the risk of loosing his family and job that comes along with it, would make him happier than if he did not cheat. He has to decide that cheating would be the best way to make his current situation "better", rather than some other alternative course of action, based on his perceived outcome in each scenario.

    Cheating requires him to be dishonest, which negatively impacts his relationship, even if he is not caught. Had he been open about whatever was causing his desire to cheat, it's likely this problem could be avoided. For example, the man may be suffering from sex addiction, which is often a means of coping with some other unresolved problem. So, instead of resolving the issue, he chooses to cheat instead. This is because he thinks cheating is the "best" way to "solve" his problem.

    The desire to improve our situation is NOT evil. The problem is when we choose a course of action that doesn't result in what we expect, has unexpected negative consequences or comes unnecessarily at the expense of others, out of ignorance to better alternatives. This is the kind of ignorance I'm referring to.

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  94. The only way you don't know is because you don't follow...it's like Columbus sitting on the seashore in a boat ready to go saying, "I don't know what's out there, I think I might just stay here"

    Harvey, unlike Columbus, who didn't actually see a cliff where the world ended, we see people dying. We see a concrete change. That the world would end was based on the idea that it was flat. But all the "data" suggested there would either be more water or even possibly land.

    People in Columbus' day didn't even know if the world would end, let alone that it would end with water flowing of into empty space. It was simply superstition, based on conjecture.

    So, again, we don't even know if we survive death, let alone that there is some specific set of requirements we must meet to survive.

    Listen, he'll never know or find anything unless he gets up the nerve to go through the challenges it will take for him to find what he's seeking...

    Again, I'm suggesting that by pawning what you call evil off on some non-material, evil force which, in turn, can only be destroyed by some other non-material being, your'e the one who doesn't have the "nerve" to deal with reality and promotes ignorance in the process.

    atheists and most agnostics such as yourself just don't have the nerve to go on that journey because you're too short-sighted…all you see is material and that's what you trust, that's why I call material and people you see and trust that reaffirm your materialism your gods.

    So why don't you believe that astrology might tell you some important fact about your future? Why don't you trust that the Sun has supernatural powers that could save you from eternal death? Have you actually read your horoscope on a regular basis? Have you tried praying to the sun to see if you get results? If not, why are so "short sighted" when it comes to these non-material possibilities?

    Perhaps the Sun only answers prayers when they agree with it's supernatural plan? Or perhaps you can't see the future in your horoscope, because your lack of faith in astrology "blinds you from the truth" it reveals?

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  95. I wrote: Are you suggesting that these kids didn't think raping this girl would make them feel better about themselves?"

    Harvey wrote: These young rapists were relative moralists only thinking about morality in the terms of their understandings and own personal desires. NOONE beliving in moral absolutes and following those standards would have done such a deed.

    First, answer the question. Do you not think this was their motivation?

    Second, which set of supposed "absolute" standards are you referring to?

    Are you referring to the particular set of "absolute" moral standards, which YOU happen to think YOUR God dictated? Or are you referring to one of the many different "absolute" standards that some OTHER people think THEIR Gods dictated. Some of which which include cutting the hands off of thieves when they steal.

    How do you conclude which of these "absolute" moral standards to follow? How do you know if any of them are correct? You use YOUR own moral compass, that's how.

    Thanks to the amorilst crowd these young men didn't see the error of their ways while they were engaged in the act, they acted like the animals that you claim they are. They choose not to function in the context of being a higher sentient being taht God created and gave them the capacity to be…

    Harvey, don't you realize how transparent and fallacious this is?

    First, it's a argument from consequence. If we don't believe God created us in final form, then we'll go around raping and murdering people? Even if this were true, it wouldn't mean God existed. It's simply a appeal to emotion. Second, we KNOW for a fact it's not true because I, and over a billion other non-theists, don't go around rapping and murdering people. This might work when you're preaching to the choir, but it's clearly fallacious.

    Apparently, you either don't have a clue how bad of an argument this is, or you simply think this how God want's you to respond, and therefore don't care.

    In fact, you god Dawkins says that their actions could very well be right...who are we to judge?

    Another argument from consequence! If God isn't the foundation of morality, then society would fall apart as we couldn't say it was wrong for raping someone. Really?

    There are entire countries, such as Sweden, which are almost completely non-religious and their society has a far lower crime rate than here in the US. Again, this is a non-sequitur and an appeal to emotion.

    If you have an actual argument, then please present it.

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  96. Pastor Harvey said "The critic is mad because he wants evil done away with right now, when the only problem with that is that if God did that right now he's have to start with THEM, by either destroying the person or destroying their free will...These guys can't see that and if they do they reject it..."

    That's it, in a nutshell, but I'm reading, hoping to see the ANSWER from the guys in their own words. Being visual, when I read your statement, Pastor, I picture all 5 of us here in the toliet. None are better than the other, but three of us, for sure, have been washed clean by the Blood of Christ.

    I want to know who would not want that? I know what God's Word says, and it's been posted often, but I would like to hear in their words what the greatest obstacle is.

    God's promise is that if we will seek Him, we will find Him. I've never in all my life heard someone say "I DID seek Him and DID'NT find Him". It's always something else like "I used to believe..." or "I just can't believe that."

    I hope I haven't gone too far off topic in asking this. This has been a weird 2 weeks for me in that I lost one overly-legalistic friend to a cult and other that I had spent a great deal of time helping his efforts to share the Good News of Jesus turned out to be a universalist, leading people to hell by preacher "all will be saved".

    Then we got Nightmares goddess worship (don't correct me - it is worship) and Scott saying the most profound Book ever written that still stands the test of time and critizism was just man trying to figure stuff out!

    I see all of these as the devil stepping it up into high gear in these last days. Tell me how I have it wrong. Please.

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  97. Scott said "First, if everything was perfect BEFORE the fall, then God would need not take any action to prevent anything bad from happening."

    Scott, God didn't answer every question we will ever have. Christians live by faith, but don't think that we don't have some questions of our own. We don't shut our minds off after we believe.

    God is omnipotent, so He would have foreseen the rebellion of Lucifer, right? So we know that angels must have a degree of free will. So does that mean God shouldn't have created the angels?

    Same with us. Would we have been better off if He chunked the whole idea of this world and mankind? Ask an inmate on deathrow if he would rather die or get a 100 year punishment locked behind bars. They want to LIVE, at any cost.

    You said "As such, God would be intentionally allowing bad things to happen to "remind" us about how much we need him. Otherwise, he couldn't intentionally decide to destroy evil at some point in the future. it's really that simple. Again, is this the kind of behavior you expect from a perfect being?"

    Evil in this world is a fact, if it "reminds" us of how much we need God or not.

    Do you know why we are waiting on Jesus to come back to end the evil? Because of you! Now I know this sounds hokey, but it's God's Truth. Pretend for a second that the entire world is filled with believers, except you. Would you question His love and perfection if He waited on just you?

    2 Peter 3:9
    "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

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  98. Paul wrote: This will not suffice, we need an ABSOLUTE reason for evil, something that is a standard that all men must be accountable to. The bible is clear, so what do you base you stance on that is absolute?

    Paul, real world observations must suffice, because that's all we have. if there is some absolute standard, we can only know it by observing the results of our actions and educating others. I'd rather walk into the situation fully acknowledging that we have biases we must take measures to overcome, rather than pretend one specific holy book contains a "perfect" standard that we merely assert is "absolute"

    Perhaps you think were just better off claiming a supernatural being has revealed some kind of absolute standard, as to keep people in line, but I'm simply unwilling to remain ignorant to conflicting information.

    I think the claim that this is the best "solution" to the problem of "evil" is a form of ignorance itself. History has shown it just doesn't work

    To quote Benjamin Franklin, "Any people that would give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety."

    Which I'd change to Anyone who would propose we remain ignorant for temporary safety deserves neither knowledge or safety.

    If you're willing to reject overwhelming scientific evidence merely because it conflicts with your religious beliefs, then turn in your cars, cell phones and computers. Stop taking medicines that are designed to counteract virus that evolve resistances to treatments.

    Imagine how many people have needlessly suffered and died of curable diseases because we lost 800 or so years in the dark ages? Given that over 90% of our discoveries in medicine were made in the last 200 years, imagine what we could have discovered in those 800 years?

    Well, what else do you want me as a Christian to use? its what I believe. If i use anything else it would be based on my finite knowledge, which is what you are doing. You dont know and you just cannot admit that you dont, so you are using your own wisdom to explain something that you have no clue about.

    Paul, isn't what you yourself believe based on your finite knowledge? Even if God somehow revealed some kind of truth to you, wouldn't your acceptance of that revelation be dependent on your finite wisdom?

    In other words, If your belief is NOT based on YOUR finite knowledge, then how can you say it's really YOU who believes? Did God make you believe using his infinite ability? Or do you use your own finite wisdom to either accept or reject the message you believe the Christian God has given you?

    As I mentioned to Harvey, there are many supposed "absolute standards" and you must choose one of them based on YOUR personal convictions.

    My point is that you're in the same boat I am, except you've deluded yourself into thinking you're on dry land. At least I know one wrong step can tip the boat over. The wise person knows what he does not know. The fool thinks he knows it all.

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  99. If someone takes their own life would you say its evil? what about the person who is a drunkard, takes drugs, mutilates there own body, evil? In these cases the person is harming themselves but many people suffer because of that ones actions towards themselves.

    Right. They are ignorant to the effect they are having on others. They do not take it into account. Unless we're really paying attention, we miss it. This is what I mean by real world observations. It's only when really understand the consequences, that we can make an informed decisions.

    Regarding suicide, is the person terminally ill and suffering? If so, we have to determine if one person's joy more important than one persons suffering? Yes, it's a hard question. Yes we do not know all the answers, but we act out of ignorance if we do not try. Claiming we cannot answer the question because we are finite beings is a copout. We're just looking for a way to avoid making a difficult decision or to justify selfish behavior.

    We can't just assume to some holy-book is right because the God it contains demands what WE expect a God like being would demand of us. This would be nothing more than finding or inventing a God that affirms our own expectations. Instead, we have to be mindful of our actions. We must observe the outcomes, otherwise, it's just dogma.

    The rest of your questions are are similar in nature. The answers are there, you just need to really look closely and weigh the options.

    The world doesn't fit in neat little boxes because that's what makes you comfortable.

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  100. Scott,

    You said:But then you suggest that "sin" just appeared out of nowhere,

    God by creating freewill created the possibility of sin, man by his choice actualized it...that's pretty simple and is what I've said all along. You say it appeared out of nowhere, that's an incorrect categorical distinction of sin. Sin is not a property or a material. You as a materialist only give credence to what is substance or material yet you acknowledge sin and godd but not God who is also an immaterial reality. so clear up your distinctions, it's not as hard as you're trying to make it and I'm not confused, obviously you are.

    You said: and God is in no way responsible for it. How could these two claims both be accurate?

    Simple, who killed the man that we read about in the news? the gun or the one who pulled the trigger? What is responsible for many street crimes in the US? Guns or people with guns? If the people are responsible what are the gun laws for and why is there a restriction on guns? Why is concealed carry not the law in Illinois and NY? now you should be careful in this because I coordinated the gun exchange in my area and have done much study on this and it's directly appropriate to the subject at hand.

    You said:Second, a desire to disobey God's supposed laws cannot change cellular structures.

    The DESIRE can't but the actualization of it can. to a materialist such as you, you're handicapped in this area, but that's EXACTLY what happened to this world:

    Romans 5:12~Wherefore, as by one man SIN ENTERED into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Now you know as well as I that their is no metaphysical reason for DEATH and even aging as we know it today. There is no reason people should die genetically. There si no science for the process of aging and death. What is it scientist? What makes humans and all of what we see age and eventually die...They may sum it up in a law, but that is only descriptive of what we see...The BIBLE answers the question CLEARLY, science has no CLUE so you can't be clear about what you don't know...keep debating, you just may learn something and cause us to demonstrate more and more that your naturalistic arguments are bogus attempts to rationalize the world without God and even then, it's impossible to do.

    see 2

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  101. 2

    Scott,

    You said:"Unless Adam and Eve were somehow omnipotent, they could not cause the changes you've described."

    Obviously you can't determine what they were capable of and what the cause was of their rebellion. They were given DONIMION over ALL things and they were holy...this is a combination that makes all the difference in the universe and one that you minimize because you don't hold the teaching of the Bible in any esteem, well we do.

    Therefore, it demands that we come to understand what it is communicating to us and like the radical FUNDY you are you miss all the significant point and parts to the words I point out. EVERY word is meaningful and impacting and thus demonstrates what man was. He was/is just not another animal as you suggest, or something that God has allowed to directionlessly evolve. Man was the only creature given his image and likeness...

    Genesis 1:26~And God said, Let us make man in our IMAGE, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Genesis 1:27~So God created man in his [own] IMAGE, in the IMAGE of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Now before you think that means facial features, hands toes etc...you need to think again out of the radical fundy box that you came in...because God is not a man he is a noncaporial being that is a spirit, so the image and likeness that God communicated was obviously based upon but not limited to the immaterial reality and nature of man.

    You said;"Instead, according to your theology, the only being capable of doing this would be God."

    This is how I know you're a radical FUNDY and incapable of correctly interpreting the biblical text. There is NONE in Christianity that I've ever talked to that comes close to saying what you attempt to IMPOSE upon the biblical text...

    You said:"To deny God's role in this chain of events would be delusional."

    God's role is not denied...he gave the command:

    Genesis 2:17~"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt SURELY DIE."

    That's God's role, communicating to man and giving the command...Here's satan's role as a deceiver, he's the ultimate materialist:

    Genesis 3:4~"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not SURELY DIE:"

    The materialist made the case "certainly that has nothing to do with anything" which is EXACTLY the approach you take. Jesus would say you're right on cue and are doing the works of your father:

    John 8:44~"Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

    You see two things I'm convinced of is the eternality of God and the Eternal truth of God and he knows what's in man from the beginning and what man's struggle is. satan has studied man and found out what man's propensities are and you're classic example of some of those propensities toward materialism. I'm not saying you're a bad person, you're just a sinner like I was, BLIND to even the understanding of what sin is...certainly with no clue as how to solve it as has been demonstrated in this post.

    see 3

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  102. 3

    Scott,

    You said:"Furthermore, If sin has the ability to change cellular structures so death was possible, then why can sin simply reverse the process and prevent death?"

    Nice logical question as one would expect from someone as yourself, BUT that never was the mission nor the promise. Why expect something that was never said. The disciples though along the same lines as you about the redemption of Israel as a nation and they were wrong.

    The curse of sin has been removed through the blood of Jesus. By curse meaning the penalty. However one stays in that condition unless one accepts it. So sin/evil has no more power over the believer so far as control is concerned:

    Romans 6:12~"Let not sin therefore REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

    Romans 6:14~"For sin shall not have DOMINION OVER you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

    Uuuuhooooo...I've entered into some concepts here than can be difficult to understand and some that I'm sure that may pass right over if you're not careful...we're talking about dominion again only this time SIN had dominion but doesn't have it anymore in Jesus...I've also brought up GRACE again, which is something that I couldn't earn and didn't pay for or position myself to REVCEIVE...I'm sorry but this thread wasn't designed for this class, you'll just have to trust my assessments here OK...

    The last enemy of all and the chief indicator of sin and evil in this world is it's child. That child's name is death. Death WILL BE defeated:

    1 Corinthians 15:26~"The LAST ENEMY [that] shall be destroyed [is] death."

    The works of the enemy, have been destroyed, but the curse itself is for a future destruction:

    Revelation 20:14~"And death and hell were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death."

    That "second death" is specific and is a non degenerating death. It is a separating death. An eternal death. A judging death that supersedes what we know of as death and is only for that one specific purpose not born of evil, but born of and because of righteous judgement.

    You said:Again, because It cannot do any of these things."

    Who said that Scott? You or the word? I'll trust the word ok...the gospel of Scott couldn't pass the historical criterion of apostolicity

    You said:"In other words, sin DOES NOT play the roll you're trying to depict."

    That's the only roll of sin Scott. That's the whole purpose of Jesus and Christianity:

    Isaiah 59:2~"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and YOUR SINS HAVE hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear."

    Jeremiah 5:25~"Your iniquities have turned away these [things], and YOUR SINS HAVE withholden good [things] from you."

    Because the nature of sin created and caused such a separation from God there was nothing that could seal the breech EXCEPT the sacrifice of the not guilty Jesus:

    2 Corinthians 5:21~For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who KNEW NO SIN; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Because those other sacrifices had no power to continually seal the breech of sin:

    Hebrews 10:6-10~"In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7-Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
    8-Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law; 9-Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
    10-By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]."


    So sin and MAN'S choice of it has caused all this trouble my friend. You don't believe it because you're bound in it...guess what's that's nothing new because we were too! Only we're not anymore!

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  103. Laura wrote: Do you know why we are waiting on Jesus to come back to end the evil? Because of you! Now I know this sounds hokey, but it's God's Truth. Pretend for a second that the entire world is filled with believers, except you. Would you question His love and perfection if He waited on just you?

    Laura,

    It seems you haven't followed this though to it's logical conclusion.

    Why did God create human beings? For the sake of argument, we'll ignore the fact that God supposedly needs nothing and is completely self sufficient.

    I'm guessing you think God wants someone made in his own image to love him, Right? So once he created Adam, why wasn't he satisfied?

    I mean, merely asserting that God must want more than one person because, why else would here be all these people, is a non-sequitur. "God must exist, we observe more than one person, therefore God must have been unsatisfied by only creating one person", is simply a really bad argument, even for theists.

    Especially when they can come up with something more warm an fuzzy, which appeals to our emotions.

    Instead, I'm guessing you think God has a human like desire for a "family." With me so far?

    Ok, but why not stop at four, six or even 100? For example, there are over 6.7 billion people alive today. And it's estimated that the number of human beings who have ever lived is between 100 and 115 billion people. Even if God expected most of these people to reject him, he's going to have a huge family! And that's just if he comes tomorrow, instead of a 1000 years from now.

    Again, why so many people?

    If we continue to assume God exhibits fatherly desires then, as an infinite being, God could have a relationship with an infinite number of children. And, apparently, the bigger the family the better. Otherwise, he wouldn't have stopped at Adam and Eve.

    An infinite father could always make time for an infinite number of children. Nor would he have to worry about running out of food or having a big enough house, like human fathers.

    Well, that sounds great. But then the question becomes, why stop at 100 billion? I mean, if God truly is infinite and has no limitations on how many children he can have, then why stop at all?

    Stop, you ask? Yes. Stop. If Jesus is "waiting" to come for me, then his arrival closes the door on the number of children he can have.

    As a Christian, can you explain this? I mean, why would an infinite God do this, when there is no limit on the number of children he can have? It makes no sense to me.

    Furthermore, do you think God created each and every one of us because he used his omnipotent knowledge to know we'd want to be born?

    Again, that sounds all warm and fuzzy. But wouldn't there be be an infinite number of possible beings who would want to be born? As such, if God sends Jesus to return, there will be an infinite number of beings who will have desired to be born, but will never exist.

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  104. Scott,

    You said:Evil, in my definition, requires sentience."

    That's because your god is materialism and philosophical metaphysical naturalism...we've been over this before so nothing new. It's called scientism.

    You said:"Natural disasters are not caused by intelligent agents."

    Natural disasters are called natural evil. You are a metaphysical naturalist who doesn''t really know your categories...this is one of those things that are along the philosophical science issues. May your friend John loftus can help you out here. He is good at philosophical issues such as these.

    You said:"We do not call a rock that succumbs to the force of gravity, rolls down a hill and kills someone, "evil."

    Absolutely right. There is no metaphysical necessity for material evil, but yet to deny that evil exists in the material realm is ridiculous. Therefore, this is the conundrum for the naturalist...where does evil come from? Form where does it originate because we can readily identify it as being evil...In other words you don't call a landslide or tsunami good do you? Especially when people are killed and property is lost, yet you say those things aren't evil, so in your world if they kill someone, or destroy property they are good huh? Maybe morally neutral? Well IF that's the case....WHAT'S THE COMPLAINT as it pertains to God...Like we asked nightnmare before he ran away...WHAY COMPLAIN that God should do something about something that YOU CLAIM is not evil or wrong???? Get a vision man!!!

    You said:The man cheats because he mistakenly thinks cheating, and the risk of loosing his family and job that comes along with it, would make him happier than if he did not cheat."

    I'm sorry but this is the silliest comment I've read. Men don't cheat because they think they'll be happier. They cheat because they want something that they feel they're missing and that usually has nothing to do with happiness, it's has to do with self gratification. I'm sorry, I know you're a young fell and maybe I talk too fast at times but this hopefully is not something that you'll learn by experience. It never ends in happiness, by the way.

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  105. scott,

    You said:"He has to decide that cheating would be the best way to make his current situation "better", rather than some other alternative course of action, based on his perceived outcome in each scenario"

    WOW!

    You said:"Cheating requires him to be dishonest, which negatively impacts his relationship, even if he is not caught."

    Then why does he choose it if he knows this? It's because of what's IN him. It has a specific name and that's is SIN!

    You said:"Had he been open about whatever was causing his desire to cheat, it's likely this problem could be avoided."

    Likely that the problem would have been put off until a more opportune time. That's the problem with SIN it can be tamed like a lion but it still has a hunger and desire and it's never fulfilled.

    You said:The desire to improve our situation is NOT evil."

    So you've created a whole apologetic to explain why cheating isn't wrong? right on cue you materialist you, with your subjective morality in full effect...Did anyone see that? This is sad.

    This fella claims that cheating is a way to make one feel better about themselves then proceeds to say some STUPID garbage like "improving one's situation isn't evil" He THINKS that cheating is an improvement????

    Scott, if I were you, I'd be ashamed. That really exposes your moral relativism for the bankrupt proposition that it is and therefore the nature of the original post...The GODLESSNESS that you espouse is no basis for any moral truth. It's only based on your weird notions of what you think improves you...

    These rapists though they were improved somehow and under your construct ARE JUSTIFIED for their actions...YOU CLAIM THEY WERE NOT WORNG for having a desire to "improve" themselves or their condition...

    This it TOTAL LINACY...you said it with your own typing and I would be ashamed if I were you. I'm sorry, but I may make a post out of this and your relativistic interpretation...That's the SADDEST and SICKEST stuff I've read in a while.

    You further claim that evil is only evil as it pertains to the outcome and how it affects others. You are OUT OF THE BOX and you're logic is horrible...WOW!

    I almost hate to read your other posts.

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  106. Scott,

    Among the other things you said that still just blow my mind...you said this:So why don't you believe that astrology might tell you some important fact about your future?

    How do you know that I don't. I believe that even astrology is spiritually controlled and God commanded us not to delve into it BECAUSE of the spiritual implications of it. Additionally, what helps me to seek "self" is less than God's standards for me...I am to seek HIM...he adds the other things INCLUDING the direction for my future and even words about my future. So I need no additional sources as they have no information that I need...remember I was a sinner too...

    You said:"Why don't you trust that the Sun has supernatural powers that could save you from eternal death?"

    Partially because the sun is a material body and secondly because it makes no claims and third because it has no ability to communicate to us in any way. Those may be some good reasons for me.

    You said:"Have you actually read your horoscope on a regular basis?"

    Been there. Done that, nothing to see there...kept movin' on.

    You said:"Have you tried praying to the sun to see if you get results?"

    No because I am reminded of what happened when the creature was worshipped more than the creator and when God said have no other gods before him eg: in his presence...just in case,,,his presence is everywhere so this means have no other gods PERIOD...It's wven easires to do when the sun has never competed with God and made no claim for anything.

    You said:"If not, why are so "short sighted" when it comes to these non-material possibilities?"

    Question answered OK?

    You said:"Perhaps the Sun only answers prayers when they agree with it's supernatural plan?"

    Perhaps the sun is powerless and is not intended to answer or receive prayer because it certainly hasn't communicated on iota of information to us now has it? Maybe you have the testament of the sun in your home? Would you mind us examining it for authenticity?

    You said:"Or perhaps you can't see the future in your horoscope, because your lack of faith in astrology "blinds you from the truth" it reveals?"

    Or perhaps there is a spirituality or immaterial reality to it that is demonic in nature, you left that one out. Or maybe there is nothing to it other than subjective appeals to self and "feel good". you left that out too...

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  107. Scott said "If you're willing to reject overwhelming scientific evidence merely because it conflicts with your religious beliefs..."

    Such as?


    Scott said "We can't just assume to some holy-book is right because the God it contains demands what WE expect a God like being would demand of us."

    I'm afraid Jesus shot that theory to hell when He died for us. Every religion in the world EXCEPT Christianity is based on personal works for salvation, reincarnation, etc. It is man's nature to think/believe that we are good enough for heaven and that hasn't changed in 6000 years.

    So Jesus came and blew everyone out of the water by telling us that our very best is but filthy rags. Shoot! The Apostles didn't understand what He was talking about half the time, nor did the religious, even though it was all spelled out in the Old Testament. They were looking for the conquering King Jesus of Isaiah 9 and all the other prophets, never understanding that He had to be the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 first. And how did this Messiah of the Jews become a Light unto the whole world? Well, that was prophesied in Isaiah 49, but you'd never think they knew that, seeing the grief they caused Paul for preaching to us Gentiles.

    No, the Jesus of the Bible, my Jesus, wasn't what man expected, and to this day, people are STILL trying to work their way into heaven, refusing to believe they aren't good enough, and that the only way to salvation comes as an unmerited Gift.

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  108. Scott said "Stop, you ask? Yes. Stop. If Jesus is "waiting" to come for me, then his arrival closes the door on the number of children he can have."

    I'm not completely sure what you are asking, but first, Jesus is waiting for YOU to come to Him. He's always there, so there is no need for Him to come to you.

    Did you know that after Armageddon, evil will be bound and there will be a new earth where peace reigns for a 1000 years. From what I understand, families will still give birth to babies - people that went through the tribulation and survived. Me...I'll be there too in my brand spankin' new body with a new name given me by Jesus, in the Kingdom part of the new world set down over what is now Jerusalem. I'll have a job of sorts or responsibilities, and it will all be very cool.

    After the 1000 years, y'all are brought in from utter darkness and separation (in the least) to be judged as well as those that survived the tribulation, and satan and his demons are cast into the lake of fire to be consumed. That much of God's plan we know.

    God's plan spelled out in the Bible from the Fall in Genesis to Revelation is to reconcile His creation to Him.

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  109. Scott, you twist things to suit yourself all the time.

    My knowledge is infinite, thats why I trust in the WORD of God which is based on Gods infinite wisdom and I dont lean to my own understanding which is what you do.
    Christ is seen as the greatest moral teacher ever by most, even Benjamin Frankin who you quote though he questioned His divinity.

    "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see"


    As far as suicide, lets say the person isnt terminally ill? this is the only way we can get a real understanding of what you mean.

    Again your definition of evil.

    "Second, I define evil as an ignorance that manifests itself as the idea that we can somehow harm one or more people without harming ourselves or everyone else.It's the false belief that someone else must loose so one can gain, and that their loss someone isolated from everyone else."



    The comments in question are WITHOUT HARMING THEMSELVES, LOSING OR GAINING. So according to your definition of evil the individual must first not be intentionally trying to harm themselves and they also must see that they are gaining the upper hand on an individual or individuals and all of this done in ignorance.

    Ok, lets reason now. How does a person who commits suicide work into your defintion again? because what you said earlier doesnt cut it. Also to say the person in ignorant of the fact they will harm others is not true, I knew a man who committed suicide and called his parents to let them know. Dont you think they said no and begged him not to do it? he was well aware that they would be hurt but did it anyway.

    You also said obeservation is all we have, well that is all you choose to have. However everyone may oberve the observations in a different way.

    All you have said is how YOU view things, that means I am at liberty to look at something and view in my own way. Thats not concrete, thats mass confusion in the worst way. Thats not solid and you know it.

    Also your use of the word ignorance also takes responsibilty away from the on who does evil because people are usually not ignorant to the fact that they are doing evil.

    If you watch the first 48 or any other crime show, how many times have you seen a person rob or kill someone and then wait for the police? they run and hide, no? because they are not ignorant in the least.


    Scott, there is no shame is saying you dont know, its obvious you dont and no one can outside of Christ.

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  110. Scott as far as all the questions I asked regarding your definition of evil, you havent even started to answer them. To be honest you cant because its not a rationale definition, its just doesnt make sense."

    The world doesn't fit in neat little boxes because that's what makes you comfortable.

    Some of these statements are something else.

    Comfortable or not I still live in this evil world, I am not exempt from it. We as Christians have a harder life than you because we have to fight the flesh against things you may not even see as evil while you can idulge freely if you please.

    "Galatians 5:17
    17 The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions.


    If we as Christians are wrong we are the biggest clowns going. As we would be giving up the pleasures of this earth, sin included for absolutely no reason.

    Guess what? there is scripture to back that up too, the bible is awesome!

    1 Corinthians 15:12-19 (New Living Translation)


    12 But tell me this—since we preach that Christ rose from the dead, why are some of you saying there will be no resurrection of the dead? 13 For if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised either. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your faith is useless. 15 And we apostles would all be lying about God—for we have said that God raised Christ from the grave. But that can’t be true if there is no resurrection of the dead. 16 And if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless and you are still guilty of your sins. 18 In that case, all who have died believing in Christ are lost!

    19 And if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anyone in the world.

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  111. Add this to my last post.

    Scott you use the word comfortable but reading this scripture I should quite honestlty be very uncomfortable dont you think? I have abandoned everything for a God I cannot see and cannot prove. If you look at things in a earthly way, you should be much more comfortable than I am because your god is your oberservations and thoughts about those obeservations. what you can see, funny thing is you cant see or touch thoughts? good thought there.

    But look at this beautiful scripture.

    2 Corinthians 4:17-18

    17For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

    18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


    Thats good huh?
    Oh Yeh!!! scriptures like these cause me to keep going on in Christ. I have an expected end, what is yours?

    Also read 2 corinthians 5

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205&version=KJV

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  112. Paul wrote: Scott, you twist things to suit yourself all the time.

    Paul, perhaps you just haven't though this through very well?

    My knowledge is infinite, thats why I trust in the WORD of God which is based on Gods infinite wisdom and I dont lean to my own understanding which is what you do.

    The only way you could KNOW you have infinite knowledge is if you knew everything there was to know. But this would require you to have infinite knowledge in the first place. Otherwise, how could you KNOW your knowledge is really infinite?

    Nor do you seem to think that you have always had infinite knowledge, or that anyone, including myself, could have infinite knowledge before it was supposedly revealed by God.

    You earlier wrote: If i use anything else it would be based on my finite knowledge, which is what you are doing. You dont know and you just cannot admit that you dont, so you are using your own wisdom to explain something that you have no clue about.

    So, how could you possibly recognize infinite knowledge if, at the time, all you had was your finite knowledge? How are you actually any better off than I am?

    Instead, I'm suggesting that you merely think you have infinite knowledge, but can't tell the difference because we are both human beings with finite knowledge.

    Still confused? Let's take the following thought experiment.

    Imagine I had access to a satellite which could be used to control what you hear, see and experience using some kind of mind control beam. Unless you had special equipment and knew exactly what you were looking for, you could not detect this beam and would be completely unaware of it's presence. In addition, the effect was so highly-realistic that you couldn't tell the difference from reality.

    With me so far?

    Now imagine I used this mind control satellite to make it APPEAR that you were receiving communications from an infinite being when, in reality, it was actually just me telling you the kind of things you would expect an infinite being to say.

    Could you tell if the being you were communicating with WASN'T really infinite? If so, how would you know?

    Remember, the effect is very realistic and, unless you had some kind of special equipment, you couldn't tell the difference.

    The only way you could know the being who was communicating with you WASN'T infinite is if you yourself were infinite in the first place. Otherwise, you'd have to rely on your finite wisdom, which wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

    See the problem?

    You must use your finite wisdom to conclude that what ever God has supposedly revealed to you is actually infinite, or that you somehow have infinite knowledge. But your finite wisdom is just as fallible as mine.

    As such, it's just merely an assertion based on your finite wisdom. And if you are not using your finite wisdom, then how can you say it's actually YOU who believes?

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  113. Laura wrote: I'm not completely sure what you are asking, but first, Jesus is waiting for YOU to come to Him. He's always there, so there is no need for Him to come to you.

    I'm referring to this…

    You earlier wrote: Do you know why we are waiting on Jesus to come back to end the evil? Because of you! Now I know this sounds hokey, but it's God's Truth.

    Do you really think this is a good argument, or did you hear it somewhere and thought it sounded warm and fuzzy? Do you really think I'm that selfish and short sighted?

    (Perhaps ignorance really is bliss after all?)

    If Jesus really is just, loving and fair, why would he be waiting to come back just for me? Why wouldn't he also be waiting for all of the other billion plus non-theists as well? Again, do you really think I'm that selfish that this sort of argument would somehow appeal to me?

    Really?

    And, since they too will supposedly go to hell if they do not accept Jesus as their personal savior, wouldn't Jesus be waiting to come back for the billions of Muslims as well?

    And what about the thousands of unsaved children who reached the age of accountability in the last minute? Is he waiting to come back for them as well? And what about the children who become accountable in the minute after that, and the next minute after that? Or the children who will become accountable next week, next month, next year, etc. Will he be waiting to come back for them as well?

    Do you see the problem now?

    Unless the human race eventually destroys itself or is wiped out in a natural disaster, Jesus would be infinitely waiting on an infinite number of unsaved people, and he would never return. But Revelation suggests that everyone on the earth will see Jesus returning in the clouds, and some of them will be NOT be saved. So the Bible clearly says there will be people Jesus WILL NOT WAIT FOR.

    So, again, if Jesus is fair, just and loving, why would he be waiting to return just for me? How could this possible be just?

    Do you think I would be so selfish that I'd want Jesus to wait for me, but not others? Really? Or is that just some scripted apologetic you heard that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy?

    Furthermore, when Jesus returns, the children these people would have had in the future will never be born. Which means God will be limiting the number of "children" he will have.

    I mean, as a infinite father who could have a relationship will an infinite number of children, why do YOU think would he do this?

    Remember how you said that even convicts on death row wanted to live? There would be an infinite number of people who would want to be born and live. But if Jesus returns, they will never exist.

    Have you even though about this for a moment? Or do you think you gaining eternal life is somehow worth the non-existence of an infinite number of people who would want to live?

    By the way, this question is open to anyone, including Harvey and Paul. Please explain this to me.

    But, before you reply, saying God must have a good reason, we simply cannot understand, is NOT an answer.

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  114. No scott I look deep enough, you twist things to suit yourself,its obvious in your twisting of your own definition of evil. You have not answered anyone of my questions regarding evil in the light of your definition but somehow in your mind you say you have?

    I think you are saying to yourself gotcha! as far as your last comments huh?

    First, I meant finite, remember thats how we got here in the first place? my bad though.

    Ok so in the flesh I am finite, let me tell you how I can come to understand truth and know that the word of God is infinite.

    John 3
    3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


    So a man must be born again to enter heaven, but not of the flesh (mom and dad) but the spirit, what spirit is that?

    "Titus 3:5 (New Living Translation)
    5 He(God)saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit"


    The HOLY Spirit gives us new life when we put our faith in Him.

    In the king james it says regeneration - defined in this sense as a Spiritual rebirth

    Now this(below)is the result of being born again, the individual is a new creature, creation.

    2 Corinthians 5:17
    17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


    A part of being born again is that the Spirit of God dwells in the believer

    1 Corinthians 3:16
    16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    Romans 8:9
    9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.



    Ok, so this next passage of scripture will lay it all out for you. I know the things of God because the Spirit of God gives me the knowledge, its not my intellect or my carnal finite mind.


    1 Corinthians 2:10-14

    10 But[a] it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets. 11 No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit. 12 And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.

    13 When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths.[b] 14 But people who aren’t spiritual[c] can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish.


    There is nothing more to say really, this is the crux of the matter. You cannot argue it away, you can only say you dont believe and you have a right to. What you cannot do is tell me this is not true, I have first hand experience so your words are usless, I am not trying to be arrogant in the least.

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  115. At the end of the day you can believe in yourself and what you see while billions of others do the same in there own wisdom thats different from your wisdom or you can place your faith on the rock, the stone the builder rejected.

    I Peter 2
    7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
    10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


    Its your choice, Jesus is will either be precious to you or an offence and stumbling block.

    I pray He will become precious to you.

    Its been kool reasoning with you, I think I am donw with this now unless you say something crazy and get me riled up again, ha ha! Nah, I think I am done regardless.

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  116. Paul wrote: First, I meant finite, remember thats how we got here in the first place? my bad though.

    I understand. It's an easy mistake to make.

    But my argument still stands.

    Paul wrote:So a man must be born again to enter heaven, but not of the flesh (mom and dad) but the spirit, what spirit is that?

    And who wrote these verses? Men with finite knowledge. How could they know the information they supposedly received was really from an infinite being? How could they recognize true infinite knowledge, unless they themselves had infinite knowledge?

    Perhaps, they simply thought these were the kind of things a God like being would say if he spoke to them. Or they could have intentionally written what they knew was not true.

    I know the things of God because the Spirit of God gives me the knowledge, its not my intellect or my carnal finite mind.

    How do you know this so called "spirit" is from God? How do you know it's not merely your intuition or wishful thinking. Or how do you know it's not the devil playing tricks on you?

    If the only way you can gain access to infinite knowledge is AFTER you are supposedly born again, then how do you know you've really been born again?

    The only way you could really recognize if you were really born again, is if you already had infinite knowledge from the start. But, clearly, you think human beings DO NOT have access to infinite knowledge until they are reborn.

    You're putting the car before the horse.

    Again, please go back and read my thought experiment carefully. It specifically deals with this issue.

    Merely quoting scriptures that suggest you must be born again, doesn't explain how your finite knowledge would be able to tell if you were really born again. You must conclude that you were born again, using your finite knowledge which is, well, finite.

    At the end of the day you can believe in yourself and what you see while billions of others do the same in there own wisdom thats different from your wisdom or you can place your faith on the rock, the stone the builder rejected.

    Paul, what of all the billions of people who think it is Allah, instead of Yahweh, who has revealed infinite knowledge to them, and that part of the supposed infinite knowledge imparted is that Mohammed, instead of Jesus, is the true prophet?

    Do these people not claim they have access to infinite knowledge of God? Yet, both of these revelations cannot be really "infinite", correct? So, here we have at least one concrete example of billions of individuals who have mistakenly identified communication as coming from from an infinite being.

    If their finite knowledge has led them falsely identify knowledge as infinite, then how do you know you're finite knowledge is not misleading you as well?

    Again, the only way you could know is if you had infinite knowledge from the start.

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  117. Paul, here's a revision of my mind control thought experiment which i've updated based on your comment.

    imagine I used this mind control satellite to make it APPEAR that you were receiving communications from an infinite being when, in reality, it was actually just me saying the kind of things an infinite being would say.

    However, if you asked me a specific question, I would say that I could only reveal my infinite knowledge until you were "reborn." So, whenever you wanted to know the answer to a specific question, I'd simply give little hints of what I think you'd want to hear. But I would remind you that, only when you were reborn would I reveal the "truth" to you.

    Finally, you given in and ask to be reborn. I merely tell you that you are now a new being in my name and that you know have access to my infinite knowledge! Ask, and you shall receive!

    When you ask me something from then on, instead of giving you hints, I just tell you something that sounds like you would expect an infinite being would say. You may think something profound has happened but, in reality, I'm still just pretending to an infinite being.

    Unless you already had infinite knowledge to compare it too, you would have no way of knowing if the information you received AFTER being supposedly reborn is any more infinite than BEFORE you were supposedly reborn.

    Since you only supposedly receive infinite knowledge AFTER being reborn, you must use your finite knowledge to determine if the knowledge you supposedly gained is really infinite, which means you're in the same boat I am.

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  118. Harvey wrote: Natural disasters are called natural evil. You are a metaphysical naturalist who doesn''t really know your categories…

    Are you asking my definition of evil or trying to but words in my mouth?

    The term "Natural Evil" is a remnant of the time we thought nature wasn't driven by natural processes, but rather orchestrated by some kind of supernatural being. God hurled lightning, caused famines and floods when he was angry, etc.

    Why else do insurance policies use wording like "Acts of God", when they mean natural disasters?

    Yes, it's technically an accurate term in some fields, but I think it's something which no longer reflects reality and is outlived it's usefulness. Just like calling me an Atheist would be like calling you a Astamp collector, or a Acoin collector, if you do not collect stamps or coins.

    I'm sorry but this is the silliest comment I've read. Men don't cheat because they think they'll be happier. They cheat because they want something that they feel they're missing and that usually has nothing to do with happiness, it's has to do with self gratification.

    Silly? Really?

    Do we not mistakenly think gratification is a means to make us happy? Do we not think if we just had that one thing we think we are missing, it would make us happy? Is this not an illusion?

    I though we could at least agree on this. But I guess wisdom that comes from any other source but a "true believer" must be always be rejected.

    I wrote "Cheating requires him to be dishonest, which negatively impacts his relationship, even if he is not caught."

    Gee Harvey, if he was actually paying attention he'd realize this. The signs are right there in front of him. Wouldn't you agree? But it's more likely that he's too wrapped up in pursuit of happiness that doesn't notice, or he thinks the perceived benefits of the affair will somehow outweigh the negative aspects of deception. But, again, it's likely he's fooling himself to justify his actions. It's intellectual dishonesty.

    Likely that the problem would have been put off until a more opportune time. That's the problem with SIN it can be tamed like a lion but it still has a hunger and desire and it's never fulfilled.

    Addictions can be reduced and managed. You get rid of old friends who enable and avoid locations and situations that trigger them. You can be open with people you are close to about your problem and make yourself accountable to them. The idea that that they will go away if we ignore them is ignorance.

    Trying to pawn of responsibility to some kind of supernatural force, just to keep your belief system intact, is irresponsible.

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  119. I wrote: The desire to improve our situation is NOT evil."

    Harvey wrote: So you've created a whole apologetic to explain why cheating isn't wrong? right on cue you materialist you, with your subjective morality in full effect...Did anyone see that? This is sad.

    Harvey. Seriously?

    You really need to work on your reading comprehension. Either that, or your just trying to misquote me, like you misquote everyone else, because, apparently thats what you think God would want you to do.

    As I've pointed out before in other threads, when you don't have an argument, you misquote and character assassinate as an attempt to discredit those who do not agree with you. This is just another example of many.

    The complete paragraph… The desire to improve our situation is NOT evil. The problem is when we choose a course of action that doesn't result in what we expect, has unexpected negative consequences or comes unnecessarily at the expense of others, out of ignorance to better alternatives. This is the kind of ignorance I'm referring to.

    Are you suggesting that it's somehow wrong to improve our situation? Do you not agree with this paragraph? If so why? Otherwise, this is just another one of your bad arguments.

    I wrote: So why don't you believe that astrology might tell you some important fact about your future?

    How do you know that I don't. I believe that even astrology is spiritually controlled and God commanded us not to delve into it BECAUSE of the spiritual implications of it

    Huh?

    If God is intentionally revealing something though Astrology that was important for you to know, then doesn't this imply that he WOULD want you to know it? Otherwise, It's important that you DO NOT KNOW IT. If this is the case, then why would God put in it the stars where some one might be able to see it? What purpose would it serve?

    Are the planets God's private diary which your not supposed to read? Is God's telepathic powers on the fritz, so he has to transmit top secrete plans to his angels using the positions of planets? And your not supposed to ease drop?

    Or perhaps God is jamming Satan's supernatural "cellphone network", so he's had to resort to commanding his evil minions by hiding messages in the stars. Really?

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  120. Partially because the sun is a material body and secondly because it makes no claims and third because it has no ability to communicate to us in any way. Those may be some good reasons for me.

    Which is another way of saying, we do not have a reason to think the sun is sentient, let alone would make specific demands of us in exchange for eternal life.

    See how that works?

    It's [very easy] to do when the sun has never competed with God and made no claim for anything.

    Showing your ignorance once again. Many people have claimed the Sun could give enteral life and competed with other Gods.

    In fact, the Bible even suggests the Hebrews thought Yahweh was so powerful that he could command foreign gods, including those that manifested themselves as the Sun and the Moon.

    Joshua 10: 12-13: "Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

    :And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."

    Why would Joshua "speak" to a material body in this way? Nor does the sun see anything in it's "sight"

    ...in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

    It's as if he's asking the them to kneel in the sight of Yahweh's chosen people. Why would it "hasten not to go down", as it has a will which is being thwarted?

    Again, this is just one of many verses that suggests Yahweh was one amongst many gods. The Hebrews just though their God was big enough to push everyone else's gods around, including the Sun and the Moon, which was commonly worshiped at that time.

    Of course, if you actually made an effort to learn about the how the concept of God has evolved thought history, you'd know this.

    Perhaps the sun is powerless and is not intended to answer or receive prayer because it certainly hasn't communicated on iota of information to us now has it?

    Are you sure about that? Please see above. After all, no scientist as actually visited the sun, stuck his head inside and verified that it's really just a huge ball of fusing hydrogen and helium. Have they? Instead, it could just another wacky theory those anti-supernatural scientists are always coming up with. And, of course, overwhelming evidence really doesn't matter, does it?

    Maybe you have the testament of the sun in your home? Would you mind us examining it for authenticity?

    No Harvey, i'm making a point. We could easily swap the supernatural force of Sun with the Christian God.

    So, again, we don't even know if being like the Christian God even exists, let alone that there is some specific set of requirements we must meet for him to give us eternal life.

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  121. Scott,

    You're such a piece of work it's almost impossible to structure where to begin a convo with you...you so wonderfully offer so much false and misinformation and doublespeak and backtrack it's unbelievable...anyway let me just pick out some points and try not to go word by word because you only get worse...

    You create a tirade about the sun asking me why don't we worship it. I simply state because the sun makes no claims and neither offers not displays ability to assist us or requires to be worshipped. You respond by saying:Showing your ignorance once again. Many people have claimed the Sun could give enteral life and competed with other Gods.

    Using your words..."Showing YOUR IGNORANCE once again" you obviously don't understand what I said...I said the SUN DOES NOT MAKE ANY CLAIMS etc...NOT that PEOPLE made no claims regarding the sun...Just in case you didn't know "Sherlock", there is a difference.... Once again, your BLIND desire to discredit led you down yet ANOTHER of the many countless IGNORAMOUS chopping blocks that you love to put your neck on....

    Then you ask regarding God's control over the sunWhy would Joshua "speak" to a material body in this way? Nor does the sun see anything in it's "sight"

    I told you to come up with more than kindergarten Sunday school lessons for questions...Jesus spoke to the WINDS and WAVES of the sea also:

    Matthew 8:27~"But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea OBEY HIM!"
    Also see: (Mk. 4:41, & Lk. 8:25)

    What does this mean? It means that God has ALL POWER and AUTHORITY over the elements on earth and in Joshua's case even in the universal and non earth realm...SIMPLE as simple can be to everyone except you who really thinks that this adds some kind of point to your argument.

    At either rate NO ELEMENT makes any claims as I stated, whereas GOD has made claims himself PERSONALLY toward men and to men. That's what Covenant was about but the radical you are has no clue I'm sure...

    Next:

    see 2

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  122. 2

    Scott,

    You said:"We could easily swap the supernatural force of Sun with the Christian God."

    And the point is responded to that there is no basis to do that although one is free to do what they wish...the power could not be easily swapped however because the sun's power would be a figment of the mind and imagination,whereas the presence of God is not.

    You said"So, again, we don't even know if being like the Christian God even exists, let alone that there is some specific set of requirements we must meet for him to give us eternal life."

    You don't know if you continue to live in ignorance of the FACTS themselves. Individuals like Lee Strobel and C.S. Lewis, former atheists decided to HONESTLY test the evidences for themselves and they cam up with much different conclusions than you. Others such as Anthony Flew couldn't choose to continue living in the self deception that God didn't exist based on the evidences...There are countless others who wake up to these facts out of atheism everyday and find a life more meaningful than what they purpose it to be...that's the sad part of atheism, it's so self-defeating and futile it's pathetic.

    Next:

    You present a totally ridiculous and subjective ground for morality and moral behavior and try to claim that it's some sort of objective standard.

    Here's what you said to me:You really need to work on your reading comprehension

    I do huh? So maybe I didn't comprehend what this says:

    The desire to improve our situation is NOT evil
    And
    The man cheats because he mistakenly thinks cheating, and the risk of loosing his family and job that comes along with it, would make him happier than if he did not cheat

    So I need reading comprehension huh? Well, Buster brown these are YOUR words and they speak for themselves...

    You CLAIM that cheating is somethign that a person thinks would make them happier ie:improve their situation, and that it's not a bad thing or "evil" to desire those things that improve us...

    QUACK, QUACK, QUACK! It walks, talks, and looks...YOU'RE BUSTED! Don't try to squirm out of it like the worm you feel you've evolved from...Just admit you sound STUPID with an explanation and description of evil like this. You follow your Socratic bretheren believing that evil is merely what is unpleasant or unpleasurable, like the materialist you are but it logically fails as it did thousands of years ago.

    This is called RELATIVISTIC morality and a relativistic understanding of evil, which has no basis or firm root to call anything evil except for what it chooses...I've heard atheists try to debate this over and over with absolutely no success, because you can't fool the masses...You basis for even comprehending evil is not an absolute one that is the same in all worlds under all situations, your basis as you clearly display changes from time to time and situation to situation as it meets your satisfaction level...that's the WHOLE point of the post...

    Morality has slipped to that level; and that;s why these kids act out...You're only adding to the problem with silly reasoning like you present...Get it right for a change and expect to be challenged every time you open up and let garbage like that slip out of your mouth...We love truth and there is an absolute standard of morality, We see the snake oil that you sell and IT'S REJECTED!

    see 3

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  123. 3

    Scott,

    You said:The term "Natural Evil" is a remnant of the time we thought nature wasn't driven by natural processes, but rather orchestrated by some kind of supernatural being

    You obviously don't know what we're talking about when we reference this....Go HERE and read those articles so you can come up to speed with evil and it's philosophical terms and terminologies and the point of natural evil etc...you constantly try to redefine things to fit your view and claim it's the other way around...

    Finally you said:Addictions can be reduced and managed.

    We were talking about sin, not addictions. Many addictions are sinful, but may not be sin in and of themselves and there is a distinction.

    So in essence you think sin is merely a biblical description of addiction....Like I said you try to redefine things to make them fit your views, this is yet ANOTHER glaring example.

    You are a sinner, therefore you are in sin. Are you also an addict? Hopefully not. But yet you are a SINNER. Therefore sin does not equate to addiction on a one to one.

    You said:" You get rid of old friends who enable and avoid locations and situations that trigger them."

    This is called personal responsibility and accountability. That's good for spiritual and moral disciplines but as I stated you miss the whole concept of what sin is. That's another reason we're confident you were never a Christian. Totally no sign of even a rudimentary understanding of this sort of thing. Just maybe a total rejection, but still to try to redefine things for convenience is silly and obvious.

    Anyway, you've embarrassed yourself enough again for now

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  124. Scott said Do you really think this is a good argument, or did you hear it somewhere and thought it sounded warm and fuzzy? Do you really think I'm that selfish and short sighted?

    Well, obviously you didn't read what I wrote. I explained it with scripture:

    2 Peter 3:9
    "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

    You said "If Jesus really is just, loving and fair, why would he be waiting to come back just for me? Why wouldn't he also be waiting for all of the other billion plus non-theists as well?"

    As you can see now, "You", and "everyone". So the only problem is the one you have created in your mind.

    First you argue that Jesus is taking too long to end the evil, now you argue that He should take forever so none will be lost. That's why the scripture is clear - "TODAY is the day of salvation". Your tomorrows are not guarenteed.

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  125. Scott said "Have you even though about this for a moment? Or do you think you gaining eternal life is somehow worth the non-existence of an infinite number of people who would want to live?"

    You're kidding, right?

    Let's see now...off the top of my head, I know that Jesus is creator of all things because John 1:3 says:

    "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

    So exactly how would a non-created life have the desire to live? Does the dirt on the ground mourn for what might have been? Does the air desire something more?

    I don't think you thought that one through.

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  126. 2 Timothy 3
    1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

    2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

    3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

    4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

    5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

    7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

    9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

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  127. Paul, I really appreciate you posting scripture.
    2 Corinthians 4:17-18 was a Word I really needed last night - thank you. A reminder that we should never be hesitant in quoting Him, as He assured us that it will not return void, but it shall accomplish that which He pleases, and it shall prosper in the thing where He sends it.

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  128. Scott, do you have any hope? Please explain what you are hopeful for, if so.

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  129. Amen Laura! The Word of God is sharper than any two edged sword.

    Scott cant understand just like we couldnt, but oh the grace of God that removed the blindness. How on earth can we neglect such a great salvation?!

    Only thing about scott is he is not consistent with his own ideas and wont admit it. He has a definition of what evil is and when its blown out of the water he tries to fit the square peg into a round hole.

    Thats a shame, Christian or not you have to be big enough to say I am wrong.

    We on the other hand know the truth but it is foolishness to those who are perishing.

    So one can say, "how do you know" all they want, WE KNOW, thats what is important. God in His great mercy saw it fit to translate us out of darkness and into His marvelous light.

    Blessed are those who have not see but believe.

    We may not see Christ with our physical eyes but He is alive in our hearts! "His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are His!

    Laura you got me started!!


    HALLELUJAH!

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  130. I said the SUN DOES NOT MAKE ANY CLAIMS etc...NOT that PEOPLE made no claims regarding the sun...Just in case you didn't know "Sherlock", there is a difference....

    Harvey, apparently you need to be reminded of the context of my comment.

    You wrote: atheists and most agnostics such as yourself just don't have the nerve to go on that journey because you're too short-sighted…all you see is material and that's what you trust, that's why I call material and people you see and trust that reaffirm your materialism your gods.

    BEFORE we discovered sun was a flaming ball of helium and hydrogen, people thought it made was a supernatural being. The reason we've concluded that the sun does not make claims because we can observe it repeatedly using a vast number of scientific instruments.

    However, I'm guessing that, should we have yet to make this discovery, you would still be quite "short-sighted" about the Sun's supposed supernatural claims and abilities, just as you are about the Hindu God, etc. In other words, you are only "open" to the supernatural when it does not conflict with your religious beliefs.

    It's a bad argument, which you continue to repeat, despite me pointing it out to you time and time again. And you call me IGNORAMOUS?

    .Jesus spoke to the WINDS and WAVES of the sea also:

    First, let's look a the text which describes what Jesus actually supposedly did.

    Matthew 8:26 & 27He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.

    The men were amazed and asked, "What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!"


    Harvey, You're interpreting this using advances in modern science which were unavailable at the time.

    They were amazed because the winds and waves were considered to be a supernatural force. They are essentially asking, "what kind of man" can control the supernatural, since such feats were thought to be limited to the Gods!

    Again, why do insurance companies use the words "Acts of God" to describe natural disasters? Because we used to think the wind and the sea were manifestations of supernatural beings, not natural processes.

    This is clear in Jonah, which also suggests that the Israelites thought there were many gods with supernatural powers which were very active in the world. They just thought that Yahweh alone should be worshiped.

    First, the men cast lots to determine who's God is responsible for the storm. And the cast reveals Jonah? So, apparently, the Bible thinks casting lots is an accurate way to determine who's God is responsible for bad weather? Should some other "God" have been responsible, casting lots would have revealed some other person, who had "sinned" against some OTHER god, instead of Jonah.

    Second, at the beginning of the storm, the mariners cried out to their own Gods in fear. But after Jonah's God was identified by casting of lots, the mariners pleaded with Yahweh to spare them. Again, when a natural process has yet to be discovered, people assumed the supernatural was at work by default.

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  131. because the sun's power would be a figment of the mind and imagination,whereas the presence of God is not.

    You can only "assert" this because the Hebrews continually redefined their God throughout the Bible. God started out as a being who walked with Adam and Eve in the cool mist of the garden, to a being who lived on the tops of mountains and who's face one could never see and live, to an invisible being that could never be observed, unlike the sun, because he is non-material. Quite convenient, isn't it?

    if God really is a nonmaterial being, then how could anyone see his face? Why would they die if they did? It's nonsensical.

    You don't know if you continue to live in ignorance of the FACTS themselves.

    Harvey, I was making a point to Paul, which seems to have completely gone over your head.

    Paul suggested I thought I could only get to heaven by doing "good works." However, since we don't see any evidence that humans survive death at all, it would be premature to assume that we must do anything SPECIFIC to obtain it.

    Since you seem to be "obligated" to disagree with anything I say that might conflict with your religion, here's an example which illustrates my point which we likely both agree on.

    There are a number of people who believe we have been visited by aliens who spy on us, abduct us and even perform experiments on us. Right?

    However, would you not agree that we do not even know if intelligent life exists outside our planet, at all? At the moment, there simply isn't any evidence. Therefore, any SPECIFIC claims these people might make regarding intelligent alien life appears to be based on unfound assumptions.

    Specifically, for this to be true, they must assume, if intelligent life DID exist it would…

    - Be technologically advanced enough be capable of interstellar travel
    - Look like "little grey men"
    - Spy on us
    - Abduct us
    - Perform scientific experiments on us in secret

    Yet, it's clear that we do not have even remotely enough information to reach these SPECIFIC conclusions. It's pure conjecture.

    Just because a significant number of people happen to imagine intelligent alien life as being little grey men that run experiments on us, doesn't mean intelligent life exists at all.

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  132. You present a totally ridiculous and subjective ground for morality and moral behavior and try to claim that it's some sort of objective standard.

    First, where did I say it was objective?

    I wrote: Paul, real world observations must suffice, because that's all we have. if there is some absolute standard, we can only know it by observing the results of our actions and educating others. I'd rather walk into the situation fully acknowledging that we have biases we must take measures to overcome, rather than pretend one specific holy book contains a "perfect" standard that we merely assert is "absolute"

    I do huh? So maybe I didn't comprehend what this says:

    The desire to improve our situation is NOT evil
    And
    The man cheats because he mistakenly thinks cheating, and the risk of loosing his family and job that comes along with it, would make him happier than if he did not cheat


    First, these two sentences are clearly OUT OF ORDER from my original comment. Again, more EVIDENCE that, when you don't have an augment you act dishonestly! Perhaps you think, if God approved of the Israelites committing genocide, then surely he won't mind if you resort to dishonest tactics when arguing against those Godless atheists?

    What happened to absolute, objective morality? Having seen the inside of supposed "Christian" organizations, this kind of hypocrisy is just one the reasons why I'm no longer a Christian.

    Second, even when intentionally rearranged, It doesn't even say what you're tying to imply. Apparently, you can't even invent a good argument when being dishonest.

    Again, since you seem "obliged" to disagree with anything I say that might conflict with your religious beliefs, I'll use the same logic with a different subject.

    Robing a bank to get money is wrong, wouldn't you agree?

    However the desire to improve our financial situation is not NOT evil. The problem is when we improve our financial situation at the unnecessarily expense of others, out of ignorance to better alternatives.


    How is the man NOT being ignorant, even in regards to how he will gain from the robbery?

    The man must constantly worry about spending the money he stole, or he may get caught. Will the IRS catch on? Will someone notice that new car? Or his accomplice might turn around and kill him for his share, before he even gets a change to spend it. Is constantly being on the run really worth it?

    Last, I think you'd agree that, while people THINK money will make them happy, this is just an illusion. So, despite all of these problems, he'll still likely be unhappy. He only thinks is the best choice.

    This is the kind of ignorance I'm referring to.

    Of course, unless I say robbery is wrong because "God said so", then you'll probably disagree with this as well.

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  133. I wrote: The term "Natural Evil" is a remnant of the time we thought nature wasn't driven by natural processes, but rather orchestrated by some kind of supernatural being

    You obviously don't know what we're talking about when we reference this….

    Huh?

    First, YOU ASKED for MY OPINION.

    Second, what's obvious, is you can't tell these statements are NOT at odds with each other.

    That the term "Natural Evil" is used in philosophical circles to describe natural disasters is NOT contradictory to the claim the term "Natural Evil" is a remnant of at time we thought nature wasn't driven by natural processes, but rather orchestrated by some kind of supernatural being.

    Again, why else to insurance agencies us the term "Acts of God" when referring to natural disasters? Or will you just ignore this point yet again?

    We were talking about sin, not addictions.

    Harvey, we don't even know non-material beings exist, let alone that they would make specific moral demands of us if they did. This is YOUR claim, which is based on YOUR religious beliefs.

    Again, if you made an effort to learn about what other people believed, you'd know that the concept of "gods" started out as a means to explain why bad things happened. Since people essentially had no idea now the world worked, they imagined supernatural beings or forces were the cause, and tried to appease them a means to improve their situation.

    For example, one early belief was God was angered by watching dogs mate or when people melted bees wax. And that anger manifested itself as lighting! Clearly, this appears quite arbitrary.

    It's only in the last 3,000 years or so that God was thought as of being remotely moral. Even then, this didn't happen in one single revelation. Instead, it was a very incremental process which occurred as we grew in number from small hunter-gather groups to large civilizations which merged and interacted with other cultures.

    While I normally do not recommend books, I'd highly recommend, The Evolution of God by Robert Wright. Note: Wright does not argue God doesn't exist. Instead, he paints a comprehensive picture of how the concept of God has changed thought human history, including incremental rise of monotheism.

    Anyway, you've embarrassed yourself enough again for now

    You can't even make an argument by publicly and fraudulently rearranging my comment, but suggest that I've embarrassed myself? Really?

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  134. Laura wrote: Well, obviously you didn't read what I wrote. I explained it with scripture:

    Laura, were you not attempting to appeal to my self interest when you wrote?

    Pretend for a second that the entire world is filled with believers, except you. Would you question His love and perfection if He waited on just you?

    But you know very well the world is NOT filled with believers.

    Laura wrote: As you can see now, "You", and "everyone". So the only problem is the one you have created in your mind.

    See above. The "problem" is your obviously transparent attempt to appeal to my self interest.

    Furthermore, the Bible suggests that even Jesus expected he would be returning soon. But, since the time he supposedly died for our sins, which was the necessary act that allowed us to be saved, the population has risen to from approximately 200 million to 6.5 billion people. Statistically, only 33% of the worlds population is Christian. Even if Jesus returned today, 4.3 billion of those people would be lost.

    And every day that he does not return, approximately 358,192 people are born. So, each day, approximately 236,406 souls are likely to be needlessly lost.

    That's 8.6 million new souls every year.

    However, since this 33% also includes Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., I'm guessing you'd think the number would be actually larger.

    now you argue that He should take forever so none will be lost.

    Laura, I think it's highly unlikely that Jesus will return at all, let alone that he should do so sooner rather than later. I'm merely pointing out what appears to be the consequences of the specific claims of Christian theology.

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  135. I wrote: Have you even though about this for a moment? Or do you think you gaining eternal life is somehow worth the non-existence of an infinite number of people who would want to live?

    Laura wrote: So exactly how would a non-created life have the desire to live?

    Laura, please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you think God knew us even before we were even born? If so, wouldn't he know we'd want to live?

    I don't think you thought that one through.

    Let's look at things from a different perspective, shall we?

    It's estimated that over 106 billion people have ever lived. However, despite the existence of all these people, God, who is supposedly an infinite father, still desires a relationship with YOU.

    Think about that for a moment. If after these generations, why would he desire a relationship with YOUR generation, if not the next, and the next after that and the next after that?

    If a perfectly just and loving God desires a relationship with you, then what possible reason would he have for NOT desiring a relationship with someone else, and someone after that, and so on? Why should you get a chance, but not someone else? How could this be perfectly just?

    Furthermore, if it was only the death of an infinite being, who took the form of a man, that could clean away the sins of people who didn't even exist yet, then his death could clean way the sins of an infinite number of souls. And if God is infinite, then unlike any earthly father, there would be no limit to the number of children he could have. If God can have a meaningful relationship with even one person, he could have a meaningful relationship with infinite number of people.

    But if Jesus returns, then God closes the door on an infinite number of children. What possible reason could God have for doing this? My guess is that, just as long as Jesus returns so YOU, and the small circle of people you care about, get eternal life, you really could care less. The though hasn't even crossed your mind.

    On the other hand, if 106 billon people have ever lived then, based on today's population of 6.7 billion, over 99 billion people have died. Even if we use today's estimate of 33%, which is being extremely generous, over 65 billion souls would have been lost. If God doesn't think the eternal torment of 65 billion souls would be "too many", then what number would be? If he's willing to allow that many souls to be lost so he could have a relationship with YOU, could there ever be too many? If so, why?

    My point is that, since YOU want eternal life, you must construct a God that wants a relationship with YOU, at his particular point in time. But, as I've illustrated above, this has consequences. However, as Christian, must also assert that Jesus will eventually return. And this too has consequences.

    It's as if you think the very same consequences that would necessary for YOU eternal life, would somehow NOT be of consequence for the people who came before you or would come after you. How is this possible?

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  136. Scott, do you have any hope? Please explain what you are hopeful for, if so.

    Laura,

    Let me answer your question with another question.

    Why is it that, unless I believe specifically what YOU believe, that I must not have hope? Why do you think this?

    Some people think that, if we lived forever, then there would be no reason to do anything at all. Because we could always put things off until an infinite point in the future. As such they think an infinite existence would be meaningless.

    So, perhaps it's you who are ignorant by thinking eternal life would make you happy, when it may be that it's only our eventual death and nonexistence that gives our life meaning.

    Even if you, and everyone else here, gain nothing else from my comments, I hope that I at least cause to you at least critically think about what you believe even for a few moments.

    However, for the most part, what I've received are knee jerk, canned responses which are dogmatic in nature.

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  137. Galatians 2:20 (New King James Version)
    20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

    1 Peter 1:6-8 (New King James Version)
    6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen[a] you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

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  138. Scott,

    You said:"peoplethought it made was a supernatural being"

    PEOPLE THOUGHT, PEOPLE THOUGHT, PEOPLE THOUGHT, NOT the sun Said, the sun said, the sun said...see there are two TOTALLY different connotations and flows of information, but you try to bleed them together...the bible says this of God:

    Heb. 1:1-6~"1-God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2-Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3-Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4-Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5-For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?6-And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

    2 Peter 1:21~"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men OF GOD SPAKE [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost."

    Gos SPOKE, God SPOKE, God Spoke, therefore GOD CLAIMED, GOD CLAIMED, GOD CLAIMED...Do you see how that works...

    The people didn't make any claims bucolically, God did!

    So in conclusion, this point is put to rest. I don't care if you believe it, but to say that God made no claim, what do you base that on? What is the proof that God didn't make a claim when we have explicit and direct proof of testimony, evidence of personal experience and historical references and evidences that he did? So you saying something is NOTHING as you don't even attempt to back it up with anything other than "Scott said"...WELL, that's just not good enough Scott...So my statement stands...SCOTT you are an IGNORAMOUS!

    The court ACCEPTS such conclusion based on the PREPONDERANCE of evidence!

    You say concerning Jesus calming of the winds and sea:"They were amazed because the winds and waves were considered to be a supernatural force."

    Where is that at Scott? You see NON BIBLICAL character worshipping the wind and waters...in fact in 1st Century Judea you have STRONG opposition to anything being called or considered God and certainly NOTHING considered to be worshipped...You've been visiting Richard carrier's site haven't you...he's the only one that could come up with something that STUPID and unfounded about things that were worshipped by a first century Jew. EVERY historian worth his/her salt knows that MONOTHEISM was at an all time high in 1st Century Palestine and that Jews were more than dogmatic about the issue...in fact they fought a WAR over it before this called the "Maccabean revolt" and as a result monotheistic dogma was secure and in tact...It is a STREATCH of the imagination to think that a band of 12, 1st century Jews would somehow be an anomaly when it came to Jewish customs and rituals when in ALL other points they held to their Jewish roots and customs...

    This FURTHER displays that this sort of argument IS NOT a strong point of yours, but is really a ripe field for further promoting TRUTH for the Christian so I guess that's the good in so much BAD and ridiculously radical information you offer...

    see 2 "AGAIN"

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  139. 2

    Scott,

    You said concerning the events:"They are essentially asking, "what kind of man" can control the supernatural, since such feats were thought to be limited to the Gods!"

    So your interpretation adds "CONTROL THE SUPERNATURAL"...OK, even in your cognitive dissidence, you can offer something fruitful. However that wasn't the passage that the Jews would have thought and or recognized this...They would have thought about Jesus ability to control the supernatural from the passages when he cast devils out of demoniacs such as this:

    Luke 8:35~"Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting AT THE FEET OF JESUS, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

    The FEAR fell on the Jews because they recognized Jesus had control over the supernatural. They wanted Jesus to leave their presence

    (Lk.8:37~"Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes round about besought him to depart from them; for they were taken with great fear: and he went up into the ship, and returned back again.")...

    WORSHIP came over the people when they recognized Jesus had control over the elements...The fear referenced in Mk. 4:41 was the reverential awe that led to worship.

    In either case NO JEW claimed that wind and seas were gods or supernatural powers...PROVIDE PROOF of this assertion from a 1st Century Jewish reference if you would.

    You said:First, the men cast lots to determine who's God is responsible for the storm. And the cast reveals Jonah? So, apparently, the Bible thinks casting lots is an accurate way to determine who's God is responsible for bad weather?

    Like ANOTHER of radical atheism "worst hits" you seem to think that casting of lots would have been controlled by a lesser god or a god called "lot casting god" or some sort. Jews would have interpreted this in the most strict fashion such as the fleece of Gideon in Judges 6:37-40. They would have understood that ONLY God had the power to answer and that he WOULD answer their petitions. So whatever proof you "think" you have of Jews calling upon some unknown god for an answer is quickly put down and given the credibility of radical ignorant assertions with no consideration fro who they were appealing to. God was/is active and was EXPECTED to answer their prayer even if by and incidental method or manner as casting lots...so you gain no brownie points here.

    see 3

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  140. 3

    Scott,

    You asserted:"if God really is a nonmaterial being, then how could anyone see his face?"

    Where is the reference that said that anyone did see his face? Is there any suggestion that Adam and eve saw "his face"?

    In fact I will only ask you, (since it seems to make sense to you) If what you say is correct would that make you a believer?

    Amazingly to me and most everyone reading what you assert is absolutely correct and a biblical proof of God's existence because the bible says:

    And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

    Exodus 33:20-23~"20-And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21-And the LORD said, Behold, [there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22-And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23-And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    God's FACE was never seen, only his "Glory". The NT is just as adamant about this:

    John 1:18~NO MAN HATH SEEN God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

    1 Timothy 6:16~Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom NO MAN HATH SEEN, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    1 John 4:12~NO MAN HATH SEEN God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

    Jesus says about his natural being and deific (sp) nature that seeing his was equivalent to seeing God:

    John 14:9~"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?"

    And again Jesus claim was NOT that he hadn't seen God. He DID, why and how? Because he IS God:

    John 6:46~"Not that any man hath SEEN THE FATHER, save he which is of God, he hath SEEN THE FATHER."

    "He which is of God" is a reference to HIMSELF...

    So your thought is correct and the bible AFFIRMS such. I'm sorry you weren't taught these essential things when you were a Christan...Once again I DOUBT if you ever were, because it certainly doesn't seemed like you searched for any truth of God, as a true Christian seeks God regularly and would not have let info like this simply slip IF they really wanted to know truth.

    see 4

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  141. 4

    Scott,

    You said:Paul suggested I thought I could only get to heaven by doing "good works."

    Maybe you're referencing Paul at joe's chop shop on 23rd and Halston, because I don't know WHO you're talking about when it comes to the bible...The Paul of the Bible's message was known for it's strong basis and emphasis of faith. Either way that's for another blog I've done called Are Faith And Works Inseparable?, you can go there for further details and the real argument between faith and works.

    You said:"However, since we don't see any evidence that humans survive death at all, it would be premature to assume that we must do anything SPECIFIC to obtain it."

    Scott there is no real evidence that we should die in the first place, but that doesn't stop the scientific community from researching now does it?

    Death is a one way ticket EXCEPT for in the case of Jesus. There is a such thing as resurrection that has much historical proof to back it. Go to my post The Resurrection, A Historical Fact. Once again that has nothing to do with this topic.

    You said"Since you seem to be "obligated" to disagree with anything I say that might conflict with your religion,"

    WHen and IF yo say something right I agree with it...case and example...you said that there was no way a supernatural being could show his face to a man and I agree with you that God who is a supernatural being DID NOT show his FACE to anyone except Jesus who is God and that assertion stands under the weight of what scripture communicates...so see, we agree and I agree with you WHEN you speak TRUTHFULLY.

    see 5

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  142. 5

    Scott,

    You said:First, these two sentences are clearly OUT OF ORDER from my original comment. Again, more EVIDENCE that, when you don't have an augment you act dishonestly!

    NA, just admit you're CAUGHT, BUSTED and your logic is flawed at best. You have no objective standard for your assertion. Just like your god dawkins, who ADMITS we could have easily evolved a morality where rape is acceptable and right and considered to be good.

    So your comments were't taken out of order they were only placed in the light of Christ where there is revelation and only what is given to him and in him stands...

    Anywho Scott, I have no bone to pick with you, it's simply with your positions and your worldviews, I suppose that is you, but what they hey???

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  143. Scott said "And every day that he does not return, approximately 358,192 people are born. So, each day, approximately 236,406 souls are likely to be needlessly lost."

    So true. Where we differ is who is to blame. Jesus already did the work, a perfect and finished work of the Cross. If you (yes, I'm personalizing again) choose not to believe, you gonna pin that on Him?

    "Why should you get a chance, but not someone else? How could this be perfectly just?

    Aren't there enough questions without creating abstract hypotheticals? I'll take a crack at it, though.

    Two scriptures come to mind -
    The very cool and wonderful Isaiah 40, part of which is "Who has understood the mind of the Lord,
    or instructed him as his counselor?"

    and Romans 9:15 (God speaking) "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

    Whatever God does, must be just. No one deserves God's Grace, so those who are saved must thank God only, and those who perish, must blame themselves only.

    God is bound no further than He has bound Himself by his own covenant and promise, which is His revealed will that we receive His Son as Savior.

    "Why is it that, unless I believe specifically what YOU believe, that I must not have hope? Why do you think this?"

    Is it alright to answer this? Because you seem very sad. Depressed, for sure, but something more. Without hope. I'm being honest, not trying to be offensive.

    "So, perhaps it's you who are ignorant by thinking eternal life would make you happy, when it may be that it's only our eventual death and nonexistence that gives our life meaning.

    Oh, I'm very excited about meeting my Savior, but I'm not done living here yet. So what you are saying is go for the gusto because your tomorrows are not guaranteed. I know lots of people that think that way, none of who are happy. Maybe I just don't know enough people?

    I have this prayer I say on days when I have too much to do and not enough hours. "Enable me to do all I need to do today". Let me tell you - it's a freaky prayer! What God thinks I need to do is most times not what I think I need to do.

    I started seeing the pattern, when I would need to drop whatever I was doing to spend time with someone. To listen, or help or give. Relationship stuff - that's what God is interested in. People, and how we can love them in different ways.

    And before you get it in your head that I'm some kind of goody two shoes - I'm not. I can be a very selfish person. But I'm learning about what's important. Nice thing too about my prayer, is the extra time spent never takes away from my day. Some things that HAD to get done are resolved before starting.
    God's cool like that. :-)

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  144. Pastor said "controlled by a lesser god or a god called "lot casting god" or some sort."

    That was a good one, a lol moment.

    Everyone here has some nice humorous moments. This has been an enjoyable discussion without a bunch of rehashing, which drives me nuts.

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  145. Paul said "Laura you got me started!!"

    :-)


    I liked your post of 1 Peter 1:6-8 from the New King James Version. It was so clear (compared to my KJV) that it was like reading it for the first time.

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  146. What is the proof that God didn't make a claim when we have explicit and direct proof of testimony, evidence of personal experience and historical references and evidences that he did?

    Harvey, what is the proof that God DID make a claim? If you suggest that "testimony" to such is proof, then what of all the people who think the supreme Hindu God Vishnu made claims? Or that Allah makes claims?

    Instead, I'm suggesting that PEOPLE THOUGHT, PEOPLE THOUGHT, PEOPLE THOUGHT Yahweh made claims. We do not actually see any more hard evidence that God said something that the sun.

    The ancient Egyptians worsted the sun as a God. Even the Bible depicts the Israelites worshiping the Sun as god.

    2 Kings 23:5
    Deuteronomy 17:2-3
    Jeremiah 8:1-3

    When Yahweh gave him visions of events in the temple of Jerusalem, Ezekiel saw…

    Ezekiel 8:16 "And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the LORD; and behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east."

    These are not just common people, but Jewish priests engaging in sun worship circa 586 BCE.

    ...in fact in 1st Century Judea you have STRONG opposition to anything being called or considered God and certainly NOTHING considered to be worshipped…

    Harvey, I'm sure you've heard the saying,"History is written by the victors." Right? It's likely that the Bible was "sanitized" by Monotheists.

    Recognized scholars have made a substantial case for practice of monolatry in ancient Israel. Monolatrism is the recognition of the existence of many Gods, but the idea that one should be worshiped.

    Psalms 86:8: "Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works."

    They are other Gods, but they are none like Yahweh. These Gods do works, but none like the works of Yahweh.

    Jeremiah 10:11: "Tell them this: 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.' "

    Yahweh is telling the Israelites the Gods of the gentiles, who have not done the works he has done, will not only perish from the earth but will perish from under the heavens. When this occurs, the signs the gentiles fear will disappear.

    We can even see this monotheistic sanitation going on today.

    The New Living Translation of Jeremiah.

    11 Say this to those who worship other gods: “Your so-called gods, who did not make the heavens and earth, will vanish from the earth and from under the heavens.

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  147. In either case NO JEW claimed that wind and seas were gods or supernatural powers...PROVIDE PROOF of this assertion from a 1st Century Jewish reference if you would.

    Harvey, again, it seems you have misunderstood my argument.

    I'm NOT saying THESE 1st Century Jews thought these storms should be worshipped. This is NOT what I'm saying. Instead, I'm suggesting you are interpreting this scripture though YOUR modern understanding of science.

    That we now know storms are natural phenomenon does not mean we should assume these 1st Century Jews did as well. As such, the burden is on you to show how YOUR conclusion is correct, instead of a misinterpretation.

    For example, if men thought these storms were natural, what natural process did these 1st Century Jews attribute to their formation? What meteorologic models did they imply? Please be specific.

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  148. [FYI that last post was from me]

    Harvey wrote: Like ANOTHER of radical atheism "worst hits" you seem to think that casting of lots would have been controlled by a lesser god or a god called "lot casting god" or some sort.

    No, Harvey. I'm simply noting that the Bible depicts a pagan AND hebrew practice of divination accurately identifying the God supposedly responsible for the storm.

    Casting lots, also known as "Cleromancy", was a common practice in the time of the OT as it is mentioned over 70 times. It was also commonly used in ancient Rome as a means of telling fortunes.

    Cleromancy was a form of divination using sortition, casting of lots, or casting bones, in which an outcome is determined by means that normally would be considered random, such as the rolling of dice, but that are believed to reveal the will of God or other supernatural entities.

    So, even BEFORE casting lots, the mariners assumed the supernatural was at work. They just didn't know which God was responsible. It was only AFTER the lots were cast, and Jonah was selected, that he confessed to be a hebrew and that his God was Yahweh. This prompted the mariners to ask Jonah how to appease his God, Yahweh, so his wrath would be avoided.

    This was not unique to the story of Jonah. Instead, it was common procedure when mariners at this time were faced with this kind of dangerous phenomenon. This attempt to control one's environment by appealing to the supernatural forces that threaten or gift them is the foundation of all religious beliefs.

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  149. I wrote: "if God really is a nonmaterial being, then how could anyone see his face?"

    Harvey wrote: Where is the reference that said that anyone did see his face?

    Can you stay on topic for even a moment?

    Regardless if anyone has actually done so or not, this verse says the act of seeing Gods face is lethal. But if God doesn't have a face, then how is this anything but nonsense?

    Is there any suggestion that Adam and eve saw "his face"?

    Harvey, where is the suggestion that Adam and Eve did NOT see his face?

    Again, I'm suggesting that you interpret this verse in a completely different way because YOU define God as being non-material. But this isn't even remotely suggested in the text. Instead, Adam and Eve are describe as walking with God in the garden. It mentions nothing about God as a non-material being.

    Furthermore, Isaiah suggests that God sits on a throne above the circle of the earth. we've been to space and God is not there.

    Isaiah 40:22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

    Earlier, Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on a throne. And what was the result?

    Isaiah 6:5 Then I said,"Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

    How can this be if God is a non-material being?

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  150. Leviticus 19:4 (New King James Version)
    4 ‘Do not turn to idols, nor MAKE for yourselves molded gods: I am the LORD your God.

    1 Chronicles 16:26 (New King James Version)
    26 For all the gods of the peoples are idols,
    But the LORD made the heavens.

    Psalm 97:6-8
    6 The heavens declare His righteousness,
    And all the peoples see His glory.
    7 Let all be put to shame who serve CARVED images,
    Who boast of idols.
    Worship Him, all you gods.


    Amos 5:26
    26 You also carried Sikkuth[a] your king[b]
    And Chiun,[c] your idols,
    The star of your gods,
    Which you MADE for yourselves.



    1 Corinthians 8
    4 So, what about eating meat that has been offered to idols? Well, we all know that an idol is not really a god and that there is only one God. 5 There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords. 6 But we know that there is only ONE God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.



    Also its necessary to know that where the bible uses a little "g", its talking about a false god an idol that has been made by man, thats what an idol is. Something created that is worshipped. Could be a dog, moon, sun, water, dirt - all these were created by the ONLY True and Living God.

    Romans 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image MADE like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

    some clarity as far as what the bible means when it says gods.

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  151. Jonah 1
    5Then the mariners were afraid, and cried every man unto his god, and cast forth the wares that were in the ship into the sea, to lighten it of them. But Jonah was gone down into the sides of the ship; and he lay, and was fast asleep.

    6So the shipmaster came to him, and said unto him, What meanest thou, O sleeper? arise, call upon thy God, if so be that God will think upon us, that we perish not.


    Can you leave out the fact that these other "gods" didnt answer? thats because thay were false and they called Jonah to call on his God so that they dont PERISH.

    What a choice of Words Jesus said John 3:16, that anyone who calls upo Him will not perish, He also gave a sign of His death and resurrection that it would be like Jonah being in the belly of the fish 3 days.

    Scott, isnt it amazing how you trying to prove there are others gods leads us to Christ? brilliant!

    Matthew 12:39-41 (New King James Version)
    39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

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  152. 1 Kings 18:24-26 (New King James Version)
    24 Then you call on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God who answers by fire, He is God.”
    So all the people answered and said, “It is well spoken.”
    25 Now Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one bull for yourselves and prepare it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under it.”
    26 So they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even till noon, saying, “O Baal, hear us!” But there was no voice; no one answered. Then they leaped about the altar which they had made.

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  153. Cont:
    27 And so it was, at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, “Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they cried aloud, and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knives and lances, until the blood gushed out on them. 29 And when midday was past, they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice. But there was no voice; no one answered, no one paid attention.
    30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me.” So all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down. 31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, “Israel shall be your name.”[b] 32 Then with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD; and he made a trench around the altar large enough to hold two seahs of seed. 33 And he put the wood in order, cut the bull in pieces, and laid it on the wood, and said, “Fill four waterpots with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice and on the wood.” 34 Then he said, “Do it a second time,” and they did it a second time; and he said, “Do it a third time,” and they did it a third time. 35 So the water ran all around the altar; and he also filled the trench with water.
    36 And it came to pass, at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near and said, “LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel and I am Your servant, and that I have done all these things at Your word. 37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that You are the LORD God, and that You have turned their hearts back to You again.”
    38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench. 39 Now when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The LORD, He is God! The LORD, He is God!”

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  154. I wrote "And every day that he does not return, approximately 358,192 people are born. So, each day, approximately 236,406 souls are likely to be needlessly lost."

    Laura wrote: So true. Where we differ is who is to blame. Jesus already did the work, a perfect and finished work of the Cross. If you (yes, I'm personalizing again) choose not to believe, you gonna pin that on Him?

    Laura,

    I case you missed it, I'm not even sure if human beings live beyond death, let alone that we must do anything in particular to achieve it. Why would I think I'd blame God for anything SPECIFIC, when I'm not even sure he exists? Let alone that he's done anything at all?

    YOUR'E the one who's SPECIFICALLY claiming these 65 billion people will be sentenced to eternal torture by God, not me. I'm just reminding you about the consequences of your beliefs by doing the math based on YOUR claims.

    But if Jesus never returns, these 65 billion people will just cease to exist. It's only when YOU get eternal life, that they will be eternally tortured.

    Think about that for a second.

    Is your eternal life worth it? Is your fear of not existing so strong that it pails to the thought of the eternal torture of 65 billion + people?

    So, If I'm pointing a finger at anyone, I'm pointing at YOU, for constructing, holding and propagating this kind of belief.

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  155. laura wrote: Whatever God does, must be just. Whatever God does, must be just. No one deserves God's Grace, so those who are saved must thank God only, and those who perish, must blame themselves only.

    Laura, do you really believe this? Or is the only way you can believe what you believe and still sleep at night?

    Again, let's look at this from YOUR perspective.

    If you want eternal life, you must assume that God want's a relationship with YOU. But as Christian, you must make additional assumptions, as eternal life in Christian theology has very SPECIFIC requirements.

    First, you must assume the "door" for salvation was opened long before YOU were born. This is because Christianity claims you must have faith that Christ died for your sins. He could not have died recently because it would have been documented with modern technology, such as DNA scanners, satellites and video cameras, etc. There would have been too much evidence, and faith wouldn't be necessary.

    Furthermore, you must assume Jesus died thousands of years ago because that's when the Bible said it happened. Again, having faith that Jesus died, in the SPECIFIC way the Bible says he died, is a requirement of eternal life.

    But between the time the Bible says Jesus' death opened the "door" for salvation and the time YOU were born, the population grew from 200 million people to 6.3 billion people. If only 33% of these people are Christians, then out of the estimated 95 billion or so who died while jesus "waited" for you to be born, over 62 billion would be lost. In other words, if you want to believe the Christian claim that Jesus will save YOU, you must also believe these all these people who died before YOU were born would be eventually sentenced to eternal punishment.

    Second, if YOU want to be saved, you must assume the "door" of salvation has yet to have closed. Had Jesus returned before you were born, YOU simply wouldn't exist. Again, see above.

    Third, if YOU want to be saved, you must assume the "door" of salvation WILL eventually close at some point in the future.

    If this door does NOT close, you, and everyone else will simply cease to exist. But if it DOES close these 65 Billion people will be eternally tortured. And that's number is only if Jesus returns today.

    Is eternal life that important to you? Have you even thought about this for a moment?

    Furthermore, since God is supposedly infinite, he could have a personal relationship with an infinite number of beings. But, as a Christian who thinks there are SPECIFIC requirements to gain eternal life, you can only receive it if an infinite number of people do not exist, and therefore cannot know God.

    Is it alright to answer this? Because you seem very sad. Depressed, for sure, but something more.

    Laura, if I'm sad about anything it's...

    A. You don't seem to realize the implications of your belief.
    B. Even when presented with them, you try to justify them will dogma.
    C. You don't see very well informed.
    D. You act as if you haven't explored any alternatives.

    I Invite you to watch this with an open mind, if that's even possible.

    Robert Wright interviewed on Bill Moyers Journal.

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  156. Can you leave out the fact that these other "gods" didnt answer? thats because thay were false and they called Jonah to call on his God so that they dont PERISH.

    Paul,

    First, there is a difference between Monotheism (the belief that only Yahweh exists) and Monetarism (the belief that there are many Gods but only Yahweh is the most powerful and therefore worthy of worship). Please keep this in mind.

    Second, the text clearly says it was Yahweh who sent the storm in the first place.

    4 Then the LORD sent a great wind on the sea, and such a violent storm arose that the ship threatened to break up.

    So, it's clear these "other" Gods had nothing to do with it. This would be like asking them to stop something they didn't start in the first place.

    Furthermore, not all Gods were necessarily thought to be moral. This is a fairly recent development, which was incremental in nature. Instead, it was thought that many Gods would only act if the proper sacrifices had been made. Perhaps these mariners had fallen short and therefore their Gods did not considered them worthy of saving? Why should they get involved in someone's mess?

    Last, I'm guessing even you'd think the Christian God would NOT save you in similar circumstances, unless it specifically served his purpose. That is, you think God is not obliged to save anyone at all, which is how you explain away all the cases where people pray to be saved from various accidents or disasters, but PERISH anyway.

    Note, I'm NOT saying I believe in or advocate multiple Gods. Nor am I calming these Gods were somehow any "better" than Yahweh. Instead, I'm suggesting that the the Israelites were Monetarists before eventually becoming Monotheists.

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  157. Scott,

    Your bellyaching is incredible to say the least.

    You seem to think that the morality and justness of the creature outdoes it's creator. Under what construct is what is produced better than the cause or the causal agent?

    Only in the strange world of your god evolution. I mean look at it: You believe that we come from primordial slime, develop through a process of extinguishing and subjugating others redressed and called natural selection, this being done over millions of years, through metaphysically inspired evil...METAPHYSICALLY INSPIRED EVIL (because in your construct no God was involved) and that random processes should be hailed for the elimination and destruction of COUNTLESS species in a completely random and amoral or self interested process.

    I mean all kinds of atrocities have taken place according to the call of the human genome through the process fo natural selection, fatalistically determined, and yet you HAIL it's virtues. Then, in your world, man creates God, establishes moral values (which of course are subject to change-BUT pretends that they are fixed) and all of this makes you a worse person and the world a worse place....So God is done TO MAKE YOU WORSE???

    Whereas IN REALITY, God is at the beginning of man as the creator, in Christian doctrine and establishes a path whereby ANYONE wanting to receive that path of life can walk therein and be better...

    But here's the real kicker, a created god couldn't make you worse than what you are by natural process. At the end of the day YOUR PREDETERMINED gene set tells you to be SELFISH and full of SELFINTEREST.

    God the CREATOR of all certainly has better moral capacity IMMESNELY better and more capable than YOU or any of us. You are a case study in atheism with your Buddhist (self-god) slant.

    What you believe, hail praise and hold dear is responsible for ALL...that is EVERY ONE of the senseless deaths in history if it is true and on top of that IT ALL MEANS NOTHING! It is all only an ILLUSION!

    The God of the bible has filled our lives with purpose and reached out to SAVE humanity from it's own decisions. You are just like the satan in the garden...God DIDN'T lie to us and he gave us ALL of what we need...Too bad that you don't know it...That's YOUR choice not ours!

    Serving God is INFINATELY better than ANY alternative you can offer or muster!

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  158. That suggestion that the Israelites believed in more than one God is wrong, outside of them falling into idolatry.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 (New King James Version)
    4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

    Exodus 20
    3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
    4 “You shall not MAKE for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a JEALOUS God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.



    there is only one other god, satan.

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  159. made a mistake with verse 3 being added onto Deut 6:4

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  160. Scott said "Again, I'm suggesting that you interpret this verse in a completely different way because YOU define God as being non-material. But this isn't even remotely suggested in the text. Instead, Adam and Eve are describe as walking with God in the garden. It mentions nothing about God as a non-material being."

    (Laura waves her hand in the air madly)
    I have the answer to this one - a wonderful revelation just this year. I came across the verse where Jesus is saying no man has seen the Father or heard His voice. This posed a problem, because of Moses and the burning bush. Within like - a day - I read John 1 and, though I had read it many times before, realized the Jesus was the Creator in Genesis 1.

    So it was God the Son, or the Jesus persona of the Trinity walking with Adam and Eve in the Garden, with Moses and every single time that the Lord spoke in the Old Testament.

    Having looked at the paintings of God the Father with the grey beard all my life, this was quite a revelation, and even more so since I had JUST prayed a few days before this all happened asking God to show me Jesus in the Old Testament because of the website I was starting (freechristimages.org)

    Pastor Harvey was right, of course, that God the Father is Spirit. Jesus speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well:

    "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
    ~John 4:24

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  161. Scott said "But if Jesus never returns, these 65 billion people will just cease to exist. It's only when YOU get eternal life, that they will be eternally tortured."

    Scott, I used to feel sorry for them, I really did. Now I only feel sorry for those on the fence that never commit.

    See, I spent the last 4 years talking with atheist - friends even. They don't only spit on the Cross, but they are HAPPY rejecting Jesus' sacrifice for them. I've seen and read some things that make my skin crawl - a hatred in some of all that is Holy.
    Why in the world would I feel sorry for them when they will be getting what they want?

    It is twisted thinking to assert that their choice is my responsibility. But that's not surprising either, given this new "norm" in our society to blame others and take no responsibility for ourselves.

    My answers in bold:

    "But as Christian, you must make additional assumptions, as eternal life in Christian theology has very SPECIFIC requirements.

    Only one - Believe.

    First, you must assume the "door" for salvation was opened long before YOU were born. This is because Christianity claims you must have faith that Christ died for your sins.

    For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. Romans 12:3

    Again, having faith that Jesus died, in the SPECIFIC way the Bible says he died, is a requirement of eternal life.

    Yes. Over 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus. We don't need video cameras when we had eye witnesses to the event - undisputed by those living at the time.

    But between the time the Bible says Jesus' death opened the "door" for salvation and the time YOU were born, the population grew from 200 million people to 6.3 billion people. If only 33% of these people are Christians, then out of the estimated 95 billion or so who died while jesus "waited" for you to be born, over 62 billion would be lost.

    If they were lost, that was their choice. So what's your point?

    Second, if YOU want to be saved, you must assume the "door" of salvation has yet to have closed. Had Jesus returned before you were born, YOU simply wouldn't exist. Again, see above.

    Lucky for me! But you seem to think that total nothingness has feelings and desires, and that is bizarre.

    Third, if YOU want to be saved, you must assume the "door" of salvation WILL eventually close at some point in the future.

    The Day of the Lord is at hand. Hence - NOW is the day of Salvation. Your tomorrows are not guaranteed.

    Is eternal life that important to you? Have you even thought about this for a moment?

    Another bizarre question, given that you know you are talking to a Christian. You may have doubt, but I have none, so I can't even get into your mind-frame without denying what I know, that I know, that I know is Truth. You would have to give me a lobotomy to erase all the experience I have had with God over my lifetime that has PROVEN His Word is Truth.

    Laura, if I'm sad about anything it's...

    A. You don't seem to realize the implications of your belief.
    Again, trying to push personal responsibility onto others.
    B. Even when presented with them, you try to justify them will dogma.Huh?
    C. You don't see very well informed.
    Christian doesn't equal perfect. I speak from my heart and try to be at least half coherent, but my ADD sometimes hampers that.
    D. You act as if you haven't explored any alternatives.
    If I act that way, it's because any other alternatives are simply non-issues, not worth the paper they are printed on, much less my time discussing them. If you think you have an alternative, then I would have to ask you AGAIN, do you believe there can only be One truth? Does 2 plus 2 ever equal anything but 4?

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  162. Scott said "I invite you to watch this with an open mind, if that's even possible. (Robert Wright interviewed on Bill Moyers Journal)

    What is that saying? "Be careful your mind is not so open your brains spill out"! Let me show you how easily you were lead by simply innuendo and opinion, but it "sounded" so good to you, you invited me to watch it!

    (watch it again if you don't believe me)
    1. Opening statement by Wright "God came about to explain why good things happen and bad things happen".

    Fail. The Torah was all about the Law of God, nation building, history, individuals and prophecy. Moses was a murderer, King David killed a man to sleep with his wife, Job was good in every way.

    2. "The human mind is not designed to perceive truth".

    Fail. As millions of Christians can attest to the words of Jesus "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." ~John 8:32

    3. "By and large, people were making up stories to help them control the world".

    Fail. No example given.

    4. "It shows us how God has adapted to varying cultural circumstances."

    Fail. "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" ~Numbers 23:19

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." ~James 1:17

    "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." ~Hebrews 13:8

    5. "God has changed over time and accounts for His longevity".

    Fail. No example given.

    6."The (evolution) of an individual salvation, an afterlife if you qualify helped the church flourish".

    Fail. The salvation of man starts in Genesis 3 and the thread of redemption carries through the entire Old Testament until Jesus appears to fulfill God's covenment with man. Eight minutes in, I'm quite sure this author has never read the Bible.

    7. "New traits arise, and if they enhance the God by attacking new believes, then they remain, and if not, they fall by the wayside"

    Fail/Not Fail. He fails because God doesn't change, he doesn't fail because there are plenty of churches out there that have gotten rid of things like hell or anything that might offend new followers to their church. They preach a different gospel, so they fall into all the other false religions of the world.

    (continued)

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  163. 8. Did you notice that he won't say the name "Jesus"? I noticed it right off, but it's really obvious here. "The Christian God", "He", lol. Anyway, he says "He was most likely influenced by the Egyptian cults and their belief in an afterlife. It's not clear who was copying whom back then."

    Fail. Again, going back to the Old Testament, Jesus fulfilled literally hundreds of the prophecies written about Him, nothing at all like the Egyptians believed, and claimed He was God in the flesh! No one at the time had a clue He would die for the sins of the world, even when Jesus told his apostles He would and would rise on the 3rd day, no one was waited at the tomb to see. The Romans believed more than the apostles!

    9. "I believe in moral truth".

    Didn't he just tell us our minds can't perceive truth?

    10. "If you want to use your conscience, it's not a reliable guide to moral conduct. If you want to shape your conscience to be a better moral guide, religious belief is a defensible and valid way to do that."

    Yea!!! He didn't want to say it, but he did. Lots of chair squirming there.

    11. Moyer - "all the great faiths embrace the slaughter of infidels."

    Fail. Moyer is such a dweeb - I can hardly stand to listen to him. Christianity is one of the "great faiths". Christianity does not embrace the slaughter of infidels. Jesus did not say "kill the infidels".

    12. Long explanation of why God's mood seems to change, in that "when people see they can gain through collaboration, they can forgo beliefs and get along, bla bla bla"

    Fail. The example given of living peacefully along side a tribe that worshiped the god Kemosh takes no account of the previous relationship and is mentioned as if they were two tribes that didn't know each other. The Moabites were the descendants of Lot, the nephew of Abraham. They were family.

    The rest...he makes a good argument for religion. I didn't hear anything particularly enlightening there - just 28 minutes I'll never get back.

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  164. Laura,

    That mess scott rendered is garbled at best...thanks for your look at it, I wasn't even wasting my time, I've spen too much time on this Budhist/atheist or what I call an anti-Christ advocate.

    The relativism that he espouses is the reason for the post...these people were finding "their own path" at the expense of anyone and everyone and that's what too many of our children have picked up on..."do what's right to you"..."you don't know the truth only what you perceiive it to be"

    All of that is a bunch of GARBAGE fit for the garbage file. The Pacific institute with their 21 Keys program and Imagine 21 program is infiltrating our schoold right now with that garbage...I fought against it in our community. Sad thing is that most of the Pastors had no clue either...

    Then look at the countries who espouse this mess, they are in shambles and opress their people like crazy...talk about control...that garbage is the epitome of it.

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  165. Laura wrote: If I act that way, it's because any other alternatives are simply non-issues, not worth the paper they are printed on, much less my time discussing them.

    This is why I asked you to approach the interview with an open mind.

    (watch it again if you don't believe me)
    1. Opening statement by Wright "God came about to explain why good things happen and bad things happen".

    Fail. The Torah was all about the Law of God, nation building, history, individuals and prophecy. Moses was a murderer, King David killed a man to sleep with his wife, Job was good in every way.


    Laura, Wright isn't talking about just The Torah. He's talking about every human variation of God that we know of throughout history. Whether you're aware of it or not, there were Gods and holy books before The Torah, which is one of many in an incremental series. Wright shows this incremental process in detail.

    Just because YOU believe God began in the Torah, does't mean the idea of God didn't exist before it or wasn't rooted in it.

    Do you not think the Christian God explains why good things and bad things happen? Do you not think your action of believing in God will improve your situation in the next life? And if you don't believe, you'll go to hell?

    If so, then you belief shares the same foundation of God observed throughout human history.

    Where you differ is you think God has a moral aspect, which is to YOUR benefit.

    You wan't people to behave in the way YOU think is moral. Therefore it's in your best interested to assume this supernal force has the same moral views you do.

    4. "It shows us how God has adapted to varying cultural circumstances."

    Fail. "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" ~Numbers 23:19


    You believe YOUR God, Yahweh, doesn't change. Therefore you put on your "Yahweh glasses" and interpret the bible as representing a God who does not change. It's circular.

    3. "By and large, people were making up stories to help them control the world".

    Fail. No example given..


    It's a twenty minute interview. If you want examples, Wright gives provides plenty of them, starting with small hunter-gatherer groups up to entire cultures and multinational platforms.

    I won't respond to each remaining point because they are more assertions based on circular logic.

    Other gods have supposedly fulfilled other prophecies, performed miracles, etc.

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  166. To show an example of what I'm referring to...

    Laura wrote; I'm afraid Jesus shot that theory to hell when He died for us. Every religion in the world EXCEPT Christianity is based on personal works for salvation, reincarnation, etc. It is man's nature to think/believe that we are good enough for heaven and that hasn't changed in 6000 years.

    What do you do when your spiritual leader unexpectedly get's crucified by the Romans. When you get lemons, you make lemonade. You try to make some kind of sense out of the unexpected. And you write your explanation into the story.

    This entire thread is an perfect example of this. When something tragic happens, what conclusion do you jump to? You assume it must be part of some kind of supernatural plan. Right?

    Otherwise, God doesn't exist or he isn't all powerful which would mean he isn't in control. And if this is the case, you're not a special "child" of an all powerful, all knowing being who will eventually eradicate evil and give you eternal life.

    You simply cannot possibly imagine that. Therefore, you must make up some explanation why this tragedy has occurred. Any thing but that. The alternative is simply unacceptable.

    This is how the idea of God, and his plan, changes.

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  167. Never before have I see the clear evidence of the preaching of the cross being foolishness to those who are perishing. This ENTIRE THREAD is a perfect example of that.


    The heart of man is desperately wicked and doesnt want to lose control, thats what its all about. If I believe in one God I will have to submit to that God but if I believe in nothing I can go on intellectualizing about why your God may not be right however I have no responsibility to live according any high moral standard apart from my belief that if I dont hurt anyone or try to gain the upperhand in ignorance I have not committed evil. So thinking of killing someone is obviously not evil I guess.

    Its one thing to ask questions to gain knowledge of truth but its another to go on and on trying to prove a point that has absolutely no merit as far as a Christian, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH and That faith is IN CHRIST ONLY. Going on about it is like beating the air! If you dont believe then so be it. Some people have to almost lose their lives like me.

    Scott if you want to know Truth ask God, he is waiting for you to ask him but this is becoming redundant(atleast to me).

    The carnal minded cannot grasp spiritual truth because they are spiritually discerned, bound by what they can see or know and can prove even though they cannot prove their own existence, have no understanding or their purpose but for those of us who know we are the idiots.

    Man doesnt even know his own mind, many times you see people do things and they say thats not who I am! you know why? because humans are born slaves to sin but believe they have it all under control. Riiiiiiiight! thats why this world is so blinkin sick, because man knows whats best and have come up with morals that they find impossible to keep themselves! Makes sense, to put yourself under that much pressure to obtain something or live up to a standard you CANNOT!

    This is why the ignorance definition of evil makes no sense, man is not ignorant in the least.
    How could wrong and right, good and evil defined if its always done in ignorance? Since we all have dont evil, we are all ignorant so there would absolutley no need for punishment,it would all be happenings as Nightmare said.

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  168. good and evil "be" defined

    Since we all have "done" evil

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  169. Pastor Just looked up that
    The Pacific institute 21 Keys program and Imagine 21 program.

    Geez, gave me an eerie feeling. Very similar to what is being taught in many Churches.

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  170. Paul,

    I did a full exam of that program and it's a bunch of mess.

    I wrote about itHERE, HERE and HERE, and HERE.

    Believe me, I had my fight on...What surprised me is that a few weak pastors couldn't get a grip. I had one guy call me and tell me not to contact him again-LOL! I was like, "Good, I don't need to waste my time."

    Scott is a Buddhist and all of these type of concepts are apropos to him, that's partially why he doesn't have enough nerve to simply admit that he doesn't believe in God, to him HE is god and whatever he makes of his reality is god and goodness etc...the ULTIMATE humanistic relativistic self-goddism.

    This is highly speculative but I believe that's the same type of mindset that will give rise to the anti-Christ figure, but that's another post.

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  171. Thanks Pastor, I am going to have a read.

    I agree with you regarding the anti Christ, that this will be his mindset.

    The bad thing is now you have "christians" saying Jesus isnt the only way!? and "Pastors" saying they are not the Judge as if the bible is not very clear on the matter of salvation, wimps!

    1 John 4:2-6 (New King James Version)
    2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

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  172. Scott said "Do you not think your action of believing in God will improve your situation in the next life? And if you don't believe, you'll go to hell? If so, then you belief shares the same foundation of God observed throughout human history."

    Scott, you are being intellectually dishonest here, which shines a big-'ol light on your weak position and that you are aware of your weak position but continue to try to defend other's words anyway.

    Christianity is the only religion in the world that is not based on works for salvation. It is and remains unique in that there is nothing we can do to add to the Gift given us through the death and resurrection of Jesus - God in the flesh - a perfect and completed Work.

    Christianity - All about Jesus and what He did for us.

    All Other Religions - All about us and what we do.

    "What do you do when your spiritual leader unexpectedly get's crucified by the Romans. When you get lemons, you make lemonade. You try to make some kind of sense out of the unexpected. And you write your explanation into the story."

    Oh, please! Do some research before making such ignorant statements.

    Within the first 100 years of the resurrection, there were 24 THOUSAND copies of the books we call the New Testament, and not one, zero, documents denying the resurrection.

    Those who can't see truth would think that JFK could have been shot to death in front of 500 witnesses, and a credible story would have emerged that he wasn't shot and killed, within the lifetime of those that witnessed it in person!

    You can't fight eyewitness accounts that went undisputed in the lifetime of those witnesses. You've got nothin' but stubborn refusal, and it shows. Guess next I'll be berated for my typo's and misspellings.

    And don't think I haven't noticed that you refuse to answer my question about truth. Let me know when you are ready to get real.

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  173. Pastor Harvey, yeah, I know now. I thought he was interested in what was true, not debate for the sake of debate.

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  174. Thats it Laura, Scott is not being real and isnt seeking truth in sincerity.

    He asks a question, you answer it and he puts another slant on it. Always moving the goal post in his favor.

    I will say it again, the Christian doesnt have to prove a thing, this discussion Scott, is the LORDS love for you to get it right by FAITH, not intellect or carnal proof.

    Hebrews 2:3 (New King James Version)
    3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

    2 Corinthians 5:11 (New King James Version)
    11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

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  175. No Laura ONLY debate...

    Scott and people like him don't care less about what's true that's why whatever he offers NEVER threatens his position or calls it into question at all...

    In addition the method and spirituality they magnify has proven to do nothing beneficial for the world at all. They only use their subjective experiences as champions for their positions which criticizing Christians for offering their personal testimonies over what God did for us. He's a radical given to atheism and humanism by way of Buddhism.

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  176. Paul said "Never before have I see the clear evidence of the preaching of the cross being foolishness to those who are perishing. This ENTIRE THREAD is a perfect example of that."

    It is, as Pastor Harvey will agree I'm sure, unfortunately quite common. It's always an opportunity to give Jesus thanks because there is no rhyme or reason why you or I are not Scott.

    We gotta just keep putting the Truth out there because we don't know that Jesus isn't calling Scott right now. After all, he's here, right?

    I've had christians tell me I'm too short and blunt with people - well, I don't witness to those on the fence - I debunk atheists. Like you and Pastor Harvey, I'm a Warrior for Christ and I say "cut the crap" when atheists want to play word games, spread falsehoods as if they won't be challenged and give old, tired opinions as fact while ignoring history.

    My time is as precious as everyone else's, so are we going to play games, or are we going to get to what is Truth? I'm still waiting for that atheist that wants to get real. Sad, huh?

    But for the Grace of God go I.

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  177. Do you not think your action of believing in God will improve your situation in the next life? And if you don't believe, you'll go to hell? If so, then you belief shares the same foundation of God observed throughout human history."

    Laura wrote: Christianity is the only religion in the world that is not based on works for salvation. It is and remains unique in that there is nothing we can do to add to the Gift given us through the death and resurrection of Jesus - God in the flesh - a perfect and completed Work.

    Laura,

    What's your point? This does not address my questions at all. Plus you only quoted half of them.

    Do you not think the Christian God explains why good things and bad things happen?

    I mean, as a Christian, is this not what you believe?

    Again, this is common factor you share with every human idea of God throughout history. Do you deny this?

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  178. You seem to think that the morality and justness of the creature outdoes it's creator.

    No, Harvey. I'm trying to show YOU the consequences of the God human begins have created. By creating a "creator" that is more moral than it's creation, you can justify the billions of people who would be send to hell so you could have eternal life.

    Under what construct is what is produced better than the cause or the causal agent?

    I don't even know if we were created, let alone that our creator would be better than us. What makes you think, if we had a creator, he would be more moral and just? Couldn't he be a perfectly evil creator that only allows good so we know what we'd be missing? Or Perhaps it just sounds good? That's what you prefer? That's what you were taught to believe?

    You've just asserted this is true, then called me stupid or immoral for not agreeing with you. Why am I stupid for not agreeing with your assertions?

    Again, if you knew the various ways human beings perceived Gods in the past, you'd know they haven't always been thought to be moral. In fact, many got angry about things that were very petty and arbitrary. For example, some Gods became angry when men wore black on a fishing trip. And their God's anger cause the men to catch little or no fish.

    This is because their followers assumed whatever circumstance that occurred when something bad happened was responsible for making their God mad. This is because the did not understand the world was based on natural processes.

    Furthermore, if rape is wrong because God said so, then what's to prevent God from deciding that rape is OK tomorrow? Why is his moral views just as subjective as mine?

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  179. and that random processes should be hailed for the elimination and destruction of COUNTLESS species in a completely random and amoral or self interested process.

    Huh? Do I think cancer is a natural process? Yes. Do I think it should be hailed for the elimination and destruction of countess people? Of course not. If the implications of the existence of cancer is bad, does this somehow justify ignoring overwhelming amounts of evidence that it exists? Of course not.

    You're mistaking an is for an ought.

    Do you only assert things you like to be true are true, while things you do not like are false?

    I think it's important to know where we are, how we got here and where we're going. This is why I think evolution is important. It's only when we know where we're likely to go and why, that we can can try to change it.

    If we assume evil is cause by a supernatural force which is capricious and and beyond our control, then all we can do is wait for evil to show up and then pray that it will go away, repeat, etc. But we observe that prayer is statistically indistinguishable from random chance.

    But here's the real kicker, a created god couldn't make you worse than what you are by natural process. At the end of the day YOUR PREDETERMINED gene set tells you to be SELFISH and full of SELFINTEREST.

    Harvey,

    I don't know even know if an all powerful non-material being exists. But if one did exist, why would I think it would give us eternal life? I mean, given how little we really know, perhaps such a being would created us with a limited lifespan, so our lives have meaning, after which we simply do not exist? This seems like just as wild a speculation as that God wants us to live forever.

    So, if such a conclusion is essentially conjecture, could it be you believe because you want eternal life?

    For the sake of argument, let's say that, despite not having any substantial evidence that we actually could live for ever, YOUR mere desire to live forever justifies such a belief.

    Ok, but they why would we think such a being would demand anything to receive it? Why can't everyone have eternal life if God want's to give it to us? Could it be you think the most plausible myth that offers eternal life has a God that makes demands, therefore, for you to believe you will be saved, you must also believe he makes demands to receive it?

    Or perhaps you intentionally chose to believe God makes requirements for eternal life so you can feel "special" for being one of the few that receive it?

    Or perhaps YOU think that some people do not deserve it? But then, this would be your belief.

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  180. Scott,

    No what you've done is claim that IF there is a God and that God is the God of Christianity, that YOUR sense or morality supersedes his. You're claiming that you can arrive to be better than your creator IF you were created...that's why everything is so ambiguous with you...

    You argue as if you have something to offer but you don't...You only set forth what you think ISN'T right, not what is...Look at your last comment:

    1-I don't even know if we were created, let alone that our creator would be better than us. 2- What makes you think, if we had a creator, he would be more moral and just? 3- Couldn't he be a perfectly evil creator that only allows good so we know what we'd be missing? 4-Or Perhaps it just sounds good? 5- That's what you prefer? 6- That's what you were taught to believe?

    6 questions and what did you say? NOTHING! You know nothing and set forth nothing...the CLASSIC arm-chair quarterback...what I call a PRETENDER!

    Validate your Buddhism against what we believe or your atheism, so far you've done nothing but try to assert your LIES!

    You're not here for anything that resembles truth as far as I can tell. I've got 7 threads on morality on this blog 4 of which deal directly with your assertions yet you come here and simply try to assert your lies...Why is that? Could it be because you don't care about TRUTH?

    Could it be because all you want to do is simply make some kind of point no matter what it is?...I think so!

    We're CONFIDENT of what we believe and we KNOW our God my friend, disagreement isn't the issue, it's people who continuously skirt by and over the truth when they've been refuted handily such as you in 4 previous threads and this one.

    One sure sign of one who has been defeated, they always change topics and NEVER respond or admit they been outdone...YOU'RE ALL THE ABOVE!

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  181. Scott,

    You said:I think it's important to know where we are, how we got here and where we're going. This is why I think evolution is important. It's only when we know where we're likely to go and why, that we can can try to change it.

    That's a BUNCH of garbage as I've already stated in the other 2 to 3 threads we've argued and YOU KNOW evolution tells us nothing about how we got here or why...whereas the Bible does and all you do is REJECT it out of hand because you say you don't know certain details...we ll you SIMULTANEOUSLY admit you don't know all details about science but YET you believe it...WHY Scott?

    I'll tell you why? Because you DON'T CARE for TRUTH as espoused by Christianity. You have a BIAS and that bias blinds you to the truth...SIMPLE as that...

    Now ADMIT your statement here is merely hype and hyperbole...I can see by your continued statements that it's not truth...

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  182. See here's another example of what we've had to ENDURE with you in this thread...

    I saidBut here's the real kicker, a created god couldn't make you worse than what you are by natural process. At the end of the day YOUR PREDETERMINED gene set tells you to be SELFISH and full of SELFINTEREST.

    You respond by saying:I don't know even know if an all powerful non-material being exists. But if one did exist, why would I think it would give us eternal life?

    WHAT? Who's talking about eternal life? I'm talking about the parallel between a naturalistic evolution and creation and you SKIRT PAST THAT to talk about eternal life....THAT'S EXACTLY what we're talking about

    ARE YOU ON DRUGS?

    Then you ramble totally off topic: I mean, given how little we really know, perhaps such a being would created us with a limited lifespan, so our lives have meaning, after which we simply do not exist? This seems like just as wild a speculation as that God wants us to live forever.

    SOUNDS like LSD to me! That's what been pointed out. Now you wouldn't do this at an atheistic blog even though not too many atheists will come close to agreeing with you on your Buddhism...in fact they'll call you dumb and deluded also because you're religious, now won't they?

    Yet you come here and your only mission is to disagree, NOT to get to the truth of the issue, but to simply say..."No matter what you say, you're wrong!" That's SILLY!

    I've been debating at Loftus site for over 2 years now and when we get into a heated discussion, once I've made my point, I don't become an antagonist...WE HEAR you and just like you reject Christianity for whatever reason, WE REJECT your mess also...

    As I said before, we have been SINNERS before...don't want it again my friend!

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  183. My time is as precious as everyone else's, so are we going to play games, or are we going to get to what is Truth? I'm still waiting for that atheist that wants to get real. Sad, huh?

    Laura, ask a direct question, and you'll get an answer.

    That I do not get to Your "truth" does not mean I'm not getting answering your questions, or that I'm not being "real."

    This is rhetoric, not an argument.

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  184. Scott,

    EVERYTHING you say is rhetoric and not an argument. So what are you trying to prove?

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