Monday, June 8, 2009

Late Term Abortion, Is The ELCA Responsible For Dr. Tiller's Death?

"This is an area that we just don't know much about,"..."The information just isn't available." Stanley K. Henshaw, a senior fellow at the Guttmacher Institute, a reproductive health research group that has the best available data.

Since the death of Dr. George Tiller and his relationship with the church, one thing is clear, the church is conflicted over this issue as great as anyone. Why? I suppose it's because of the nature of abortion and especially late term abortion itself, and the seemingly inconsistent way that Dr. Tiller approached his profession over the course of his lifetime.

As recorded in This Doesn't Fulfill The Mission Of Christ, We decry abortion in all of it's forms. We believe that the unborn have a right to life. We also don't believe that Christians or otherwise should take the law in their hands and kill medical professionals who provide such services. However, and this is where it gets sticky, We believe that the already born have a right to life also.

In this article I intend to look at some of the facts that we should know regarding these procedures and the the thoughts of some of the medical professionals who perform such procedures? Are they whimsically recommending procedures based on their own thoughts and libertarian attitudes towards life? Are the women wantonly using late trimester abortions as another means of delayed birth control with the endorsement of the state? Most importantly, is the church, in particularly the Evangelical Lutheran Church In America (ELCA) responsible for Dr. Tiller's death in a vicariously strange manner? It's worth taking a look at and discussing so that those of us who oppose abortion will better understand the processes behind these types of actions and attitudes, and filter out some of the noise regarding the issues.

What We Do Know?

According to a 6/5/09 article by Rob Stein at The Washington Post, more than 88 percent of abortions are done in the first trimester, and most doctors will not perform them beyond 22 or 24 weeks because of moral qualms, social stigma, legal concerns, inadequate training or lack of experience. Barely 1 percent of procedures are done after 21 weeks. At 37 weeks, a baby is generally considered full-term. 2001 data from 15 states and New York City indicate that perhaps as many as 2,400 abortions were performed after 24 weeks in the United States that year, most of them probably in the 25th or 26th week. Late term abortions represent roughly about 1% of all types of abortions performed. It is estimated that 400 procedures per year beyond 24 weeks were performed at Tiller's clinic. Those figures would place Dr. Tiller's clinic at about 7.7 late term abortion procedures per week over the course of a year. The figures at his clinic represent about 16% of all annual late term abortions performed in the country.

Since proper records are not gathered as to the necessity of abortions, abortion rights advocates often contend that the only necessity for late term abortions are when the fetus is maldeveloped, in danger of suffering from a painful death itself or when the life of the mother is in danger or she is at risk from suffering a devastating health condition or problem. Under Kansas law, an abortion can be performed after a fetus is viable only IF the doctor performing the procedure and an independent physician agree that the woman's life is at risk or that continuing the pregnancy would cause "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function."

The procedures of Kansas law settles at least one thing: Dr. Tiller WAS NOT merely performing these procedures at his whims or begging of the mothers or families involved. With each corresponding abortion (aka: possible legal murder) there has been another doctor "an independent physician" who has also signed off and agreed that the procedure is in the best interest of the mother or fetus. The problem is where is the bureaucracy? This could be a "quid pro quo" relationship. This should be a huge ethical, professional standards and even RICO problem. Why isn't proper documentation of this sort of thing mandatory and standard across the board? Why does the federal law not recognize the need to maintain adequate records and keep accurate statistical trends of these type of procedures? Isn't it in the public's best interest to have access to more thorough and complete data so that public problems can be made known and addressed forthrightly?

Was This Dr. Tiller's Mindset?
A Few Cases Out Of 60,000

"As long as you have a terrorist who is willing to walk into a church and kill one person, as long as that element is in society, this is the risk we take. You can't live your life based on fear. You have to live by your principles." ~ MSNBC Abortion Dr. Seeks To Carry On Friends Work

Dr. LeRoy Carhart, who is a vocal abortion rights advocate, for years has been at the epicenter of the debate on late term or partial-birth abortions. Dr. Carhart, who doesn't perform procedures past the 22nd week of pregnancy, first met Tiller more than 20 years ago and began working at the Wichita clinic a decade ago. He said he regularly traveled to Kansas for a few days every third week. He only performs third-term abortions in Kansas at Tiller's clinic at the rate of about 25% of Tiller's business or in hard numbers about 75 to 100 procedures per year. These are the types of procedures he's seen and done at the clinic:
Brainless fetus: "The latest patient was a case where the fetus had no brain at all, would never take a breath on its own. That was probably just a few weeks before delivery," said LeRoy Carhart, a Bellevue, Neb., doctor who worked with Tiller, in an interview this week. "Her doctor knew the problem all along but just never told her."

The rape victim: "There was a woman who tried to commit suicide three times. She was pregnant because she had been raped. She said every time she felt the baby move, it was the rape all over again. She could not live with that," ~ Dr. LeRoy Carhart

Our responses to something like this is that #1, these types of cases are not normative. These sort of extreme cases only seek to appeal emotionally to the issue and are not representative of the actual facts of abortion. I have outlined those facts in Abortion Issues & Myths. #2 In these sort of instances the doctors are playing the part of God by at least helping decide who actually lives and who dies. This is an unacceptable role for medical personnel.

Here's one more interesting statement from an abortion doctor regarding late term abortions:

"If someone calls me up, and she's 32 weeks pregnant and knew she was pregnant for six months and says, 'I want an abortion, because I just broke up with my boyfriend,' I won't do that, But a 13-year-old teenybopper clutching a pink teddy bear who has been raped by her stepfather -- I'll do that." ~ Dr. Warren M. Hern, a Boulder, Colo., doctor who is one of the very few physicians who perform the procedures and are willing to speak publicly.

Here the doctor decides to address the ungodly and horrible situation that has happened to the parent (mother) by punishing the child for the rapist's crime and criminal act. I agree that carrying the baby would be difficult, but I'd also agree that the child along with the mother are the innocent victims and to victimize the child further by denying him/her the opportunity to make something good out of his/her life would be as great of a sin and crime as the initial act of rape.

The More Normative Reason That There Is An Option Called Late Term Abortion:

According to B.A. Robinson at Religious there are 3 primary reasons that late term abortions are available as options. Those reasons are as follows:

  • To save the life or health of a women experiencing a deteriorating health problem. This problem can rapidly grow worse with every day in late pregnancy, and can only be reversed by terminating the pregnancy. It is most often caused by diabetes or heart disease.

  • A midwifery web site quotes Dr. William F. Harrison, a diplomate of the American Board of Obstetrics and Gynecology. He wrote that "approximately 1 in 2000 fetuses develop hydrocephalus while in the womb." About 5,000 fetuses develop hydrocephalus each year in the U.S. This is not usually discovered until late in the second trimester. A fetus with severe hydrocephalus is alive, but cannot live for long; it will never achieve consciousness.

  • In rare cases, the delivery of the fetus can go terribly wrong, threatening the life of the woman.

There are generally 2 options for late term abortion procedures. 1- "D&X" (dilation and extraction) and 2- A hysterotomy, which is similar to a Cesarean section.

1- D&X Procedure (aka: Partial Birth Abortion) ~ The woman's cervix is dilated. If necessary, the fetus is rotated until it is facing feet downwards. The surgeon reaches into the uterus and pulls the fetus' body, with the exception of its head, out of the woman's body. Surgical scissors are inserted into the base of the fetal skull, and withdrawn. A suction tube is inserted and the fetus' brains are removed through aspiration. This partially collapses the fetal skull. The fetus is then fully removed from the woman's body.

2- Hysterotomy ~ The woman is given a local anesthetic. A cut is made into her abdomen which extends into the uterus. The fetus is removed. The placenta is then removed. Finally, the incision is stitched.

The Doctor's Church. Reformed Evangelical Lutheran Church In America (ELCA)

This is probably another of the most interesting pieces to this potpourri. In it's Social Statement On Abortion, The churches position almost mirrors the doctor's actions and practices regarding this issue. Look at the considerations for pregnancy termination under IV Guidence in Making Decisions Regarding Unintended Pregnancies sub-Section B. Ending a Pregnancy

  • "In reflecting ethically on what should be done in the case of an unintended pregnancy, consideration should be given to the status and condition of the life in the womb. We also need to consider the conditions under which the pregnancy occurred and the implications of the pregnancy for the woman's life."
This statement deals with unintended pregnancy and gives the right of consideration to not only a woman's health or the health of the fetus but also to the conditions under which the pregnancy occured and the implications of that pregnancy to the woman's life. In other words, this statement makes abortion in as a matter of convenience. I do not find this in accord with scripture regarding the issue. Here's an additional statement:

  • "A woman should not be morally obligated to carry the resulting pregnancy to term if the pregnancy occurs when both parties do not participate willingly in sexual intercourse. This is especially true in cases of rape and incest."
Once again, the ELCA places the sanctity of life lower than the conditions under which that life is conceived. Dr. Tiller's actions were in accord with his church's teachings on the issue. If there is judgement upon Dr. Tiller, there will also be judgement upon this church and its leadership. Is this church considered an enemy in the abortion debate?

Summary & Conclusion:

  • The percentage of types of procedures normally performed at Tiller's former clinic are undetermined. Once again, inadequate records are kept and unless the clinic produces those records we may never know exactly what type of procedure that Dr. Tiller favored.

  • Procedures to remove dead children from the womb are yet considered abortions. There is no record or way of distinguishing what percentage of Dr. Tiller's procedures were on either children who had already died or on children who suffered hydrocephalus who would never live. In these cases procedures would be preferred to allowing a mother to go through a delivery or maintain carry which could possibly kill he mother in the process.

  • Neither Dr. Tiller or his associates could independently perform such procedures. They would have had to at least network with an independent physician who would also comply and agree with his recommendation to terminate pregnancy at such a late stage under Kansas law.

  • George Tiller rationalized his actions and thought he was doing God and the world a favor by taking the life of the unborn due to situations of rape and incest. he acted according to his church's prevailing teachings.

  • It would seem that the practice of first and second trimester abortions are more contraceptive in nature, where the practice of late or third term abortions is more of a health conscious decisions based on condition of the fetus or the endangerment of the mother's life.

  • It also seems that there is not adequate pastoral council at ground level, in these situations. At least there is no record of such. This is disconcerting, as the religious community seems to approach this subject from a one size fits all vantage point at times.

  • It would also seem that Dr. Tiller actions were in full compliance to the views and statements of his church regarding these issues. This leads me to believe that the basis for his apparent clear conscience was the fundamental teachings of his church regarding this issue. Is the ELCA responsible for the actions and judgement against Dr. Tiller? Is there a consideration that Dr. Tiller's blood is on the ELCA's hands?
This is very shocking to say the least. There is a strong potential that a person is in HELL because of the direct teachings of his church which the Dr. followed and defended to a Tee. I said in the previous post that the church had a responsibility and I see that conclusion was right ONLY that the church did not seem to have its responsibility biblically centered. Is the church responsible for Dr. Tiller's death? On a personal note, will someone spend eternity in HELL because of you?


  1. These women who have these abortions fail to realize that everything is the Lord's. Including their own bodies and what grows within them.

    Psalm 24:1 "The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein"

    They did not create themselves, nor do they sustain themselves on their own authority. So therefore, when God puts forth a mandate/commandment is it not up for debate.

  2. Servant,

    I'm in agreement with you but I must ask and seek a little more indepth answers. Here's why?

    With our second child, the doctor suggested to my wife that we terminate the pregnancy due to the speculation that our child would have some brain deficiency or abnormality. In fact I believe that Downs Syndrome was the named disease and we were asked to consider whether we wanted to care for someone in that condition for the rest of our lives.

    Without equivocation our answer was yes, we simply wanted our baby and believed that God would take care of the rest. So abortion wasn't a consideration for us in any form or manner. Our daughter was born perfectly normal and is now 7 years old, smarter than either of us and needs much prayer (LOL)So she's fine and the doctor's tests were 100% wrong and his recommendation went unheeded by us.

    Now, that leads me to this question. What happens or should be done if a child has no brain or will only exist in permanent pain? Is there a glory or blessing for unnecessary suffering? I'm not talking about speculitive medical testing. I'm talking about 100% sure evaluation of the data.

    I mean we go back to the question, If there is a deer in the forest and a tree falls on it breaks its back and legs but it doesn't die right away, what need is there for it to suffer?

    This is a question that is even more poignant for a human being. Now we KNOW that God superceeds medicine just like my testimony, but when a child has no brain at all and delivery will only potentially be a painful exercise for the mother, what responsibility do we have to exercise safety for everyone involved?

    So far as I know (and I don't say this to be funny) there has never been anyone who's ever been born without a brain and lived.

    So these considerations are very poignant. As i said in the article, we have no way of knowing how many of these type of operations Dr. Tiller performed out of the 60,000. That is unless they open or compile the records for us.

  3. Pastor Burnett,
    Your last paragraph says IT ALL!
    "This is very shocking to say the least. There is a strong potential that a person is in HELL because of the direct teachings of his church which the Dr. followed and defended to a Tee. I said in the previous post that the church had a responsibility and I see that conclusion was right ONLY that the church did not seem to have its responsibility biblically centered. Is the church responsible for Dr. Tiller's death? On a personal note, will someone spend eternity in HELL because of you?"

    The old time saints that I have met through the years...say this consistently, Son, preach the word of GOD without compromise! Son, if you compromise, you will be a castaway. Some of them just scare you, "Son, if you will bust hell wide open!" They were telling me the truth! They seemed hard-line and cold, but these people did not compromise!

    My question is this, "How does Tiller's church get around these scriptures in Ezekiel: Ezekiel 3:18and Ezekiel 33:8? They have Tiller's blood on their hands and the blood of those murdered children on their hands!

    Now, I am going to open a can of worms with this statement...Many people have been deceived by "Once Saved Always Saved". I am convinced by the Word of GOD and witness of the HOLY GHOST within me, that this doctrine has ensnared many a soul! Many a soul!
    If, there it is...IF, If we abide in HIM, HE said HE will abide in us..then we have nothing to worry about concerning our salvation. But GOD does not violate free will...HE is longsuffering and plenteous in mercy...but when GOD says its over! Its over! If...there it is again...IF we do not abide in HIM...We will die and be cast into the fire! There are too many IFs in the Word of GOD to say that one can do anything he wants after initial conversion(salvation?). There is an overwhelming number of pastors and churches that ascribe to this Once Saved Always Saved. Many call it Calvinism. Many call it different terms!

    Last thing, the HOLY SPIRIT impressed this on my heart. When we see the judgement and the manifestation of sins in our land, in our nation the USA, the LORD impressed this clearly to me. It DIDN'T have to be this way! Let me give an example or parable, a young kid becomes a drug dealer or Tiller a death doctor. Both have chosen death as their occupation, and the wages of sin is death. Both are making a living...but both will end up in the same lake of fire! They chose their path! They sold their souls. But being eternally separated from GOD...GOD did not desire that for any of human being on this earth! Tiller let the devil use him as one of his pawns! There are many people who think they are OK with GOD because they are members of a church, they are generous tithers, etc, etc. but they are workers of iniquity! Many have equated godliness with gain! 1 Timothy 6:5It's sad!

  4. EnochWalked,

    Man, you are on point. You said this:

    "Many people have been deceived by "Once Saved Always Saved". I am convinced by the Word of GOD and witness of the HOLY GHOST within me, that this doctrine has ensnared many a soul! Many a soul!"

    I am doing an article on this very thing. Melvin over at Pulpit Pimps had a couple of articles on "free will" and total depravity etc. I'm going to set forth what I think is a more biblically based strategum and interpretive because the way that the monergist sets some of these doctrines forth is not the best biblical exposition.

    And yes, like you said I believe it smugly sends people to hell especially when support doctirnes are placed around it such as predestination (in some cases double predestination) and election as it is commonly taught in reformed circles. All of these doctrines are taught in scripture but not to the effect and exclusions that the evangelical has placed on them.

    Now, Tiller obviously followed the teachings of his evangelical church regarding abortion issues. If that's the case and I believe I make the case and seal the case that it is, we have a reasonable basis to expect that Tiller also believed in other doctrines that the church held. One such doctrine is the doctrine of election that states that there are certain (vessels of honor) who will be saved and certain (vessels of dishonor) who will be lost all according to the sovereignty of God.

    If he believed that he was "elect" (one saved always saved) as taught commonly in reform circles, he believed he was saved ANYHOW and regardless of what we preached, taught or wrote about.

    Sad thing is, Galations 5:21 stands in the way saying that those who "DO" such things (things specified in Gal. 5:19-21 which includes MURDER v.21) shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    One's actions should provide the appropriate RESPONSE to the grace of God. when properly understood, this is in no way synergistic with God's salvation. Salvation comes from, because and by God alone, BUT to receive it and act upon it in no way violates or infringes upon the sole actions of God.

    Our dear reformed brothers tend to miss this. That's why I believe Tiller is in hell today.

    Excellent Enochwalked and Servant of the Most High God. I appreciate the love that each of you have for God's word and HIS authority.

  5. Great Points!
    I wanted to deal with the rape issue. My grandmother was raped with my mother. Yes, there is some trama that the rape victim feels each time they look at that child BUT that's why people need to be saved. The love of God and for your child will love you past the hurt and shame of rape.

    We have a society of people who are selfish. I believe that this is the deep seeded reason for abortion. They don't want to go through anything. I am grateful to have beautiful children who are healthy, saved, and baptized believers in Christ. It could have been different for me but God kept them safe.

    I had many people encouraging me to have an abortion but I knew that abortion is murder. Concerning the reasons for late term abortions I feel that you make good points but they are not holy points. I was happy to hear of your testimony concerning your child. See we all get tempted to do evil and to receive evil reports. You and your wife chose to trust God. Perhaps if more people did that then abortion would only be among the unsaved. We kinow that church attendees are having abortions too. A christian doctor would inform the pregnant mother of health risks and provide agencies for assistance. I see many children born with birth defects and loving parents who raise them with patience and love. We know that NOTHING happens without God's knowledge so why worry about risks? IF the baby is dying wait until he or she dies. Yes, that is considered aborting the baby but it's not abortion. Abortion is when a women decides to kill their child. When a baby is aborted then the baby dies during the pregnancy. There is a difference. My sister had a miscarriage and so did a good family friend.

    We cannot follow man and his doctrine so closely that God's commandments gets neglected. We all know that murder is wrong...period. We can give all the reasons in the world to try and condone abortion BUT when we face the HOLY one we will know the truth. This guy decided to follow man's doctrine and I believe that he now knows WHO's doctrine is Truth. Walking in Truth is so important. We must not allow ourselves to remain caught up in the snare of our own justification. We need to trust in what the word says and leave our own reasoning alone and if it bothers you that much then ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the Truth. I know He will.

    My prayer that I will only preach what God would have me to say. I pray that my words or actions will lead those I minister to right into the arms of Jesus and not to hell and the lake of fire.


  6. DSHB
    I knew sooner or later I'd post something over here. I've admired you from afar, as I've read and enjoyed your comments on Mr. Loftus' site.

    I don't doubt anyones sincerity whose commented here but we (Christians) all feel the Holy Spirit directing us, and not all of us come to the same conclusions. I don't think it is a good idea to premise any statement with the notion the HS has given divine revelation that someone else didn't get. Quick example, then I'll move on. The HS can tell me to give up a certain habit, but the HS is not telling me to tell others to give up their habits. Not really my business. (no disrespect to anyone intended)

    Every time I pray for the unborn I also pray for the Doctors, their Nurses and of course the Mothers. The Bible is never wrong, but it really is crystal clear when it talks about how we are not fighting against flesh and blood, but against spiritual forces of evil...

    As mad as I get sometimes at these Dr's and Law makers and politicians, I must realize they are being influenced by "evil forces". And so we must combat this battle spiritually. Mainly through prayer. (and fasting for everyone other than me.)

    #1. The Dr. didn't deserve to be killed.

    #2. The guy that shot him is not God and has no right to play that role.

    #3. Both of these guys could be lost/saved, I have no idea?

    #4. The Church should judge actions, just not motives and intent, again that's God job.

    #5. I'm not a big fan of Christians getting in the political arena. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, again the HS might lead you that way?)
    But when it comes to the abortion issue I am a bit of a hypocrite.
    But that's only because these babies have no voice. So I vote, and have never voted for any "pro-choice" candidate.

    #6. I don't believe the lie that I'm anti-woman because I'm pro-life. Also don't fall into the cute little sayings like "abortions should be rare, safe and legal". If they should be legal, then who the hell has the right to say they should be rare?

    #7. God is good and slow to anger. He proved his love for us while we were yet sinners, He died for us. My sins which were and are many are no different than what these poor "pro-choice" people are up to. The difference is I'm seeking God's direction and am under His influence. Not the prince of this worlds.

    I hope that didn't sound to "Holier than thou", if it did please forgive me.

    Peace out, feeno

  7. Meka,

    Thanks for the commentary. Very good and thought provoking.

    I agree, my comments were slanted more toward naturalism and evaluation of scientific data, however we all acknowledge the power and intervention of God as he still yet does work miracles.Now science cannot be overlooked and is not incompatable with faith as many teach, so there are lessons that we can learn from these type of instances.

    Whether my testimony was an example of a miracle or not is left to discussion, all I know is that we were willing to trust God no matter what the condition of our child as we prayed for her complete health.

    So in short, as you suggest, we should leave room for God to perform a miracle, but we are hard pressed to ask the unsaved to follow the same dictum as they walk by "sight" or under purely naturalistic influences in many areas of life. So the greatest part of this post deals with influencing the church to do what you say here:

    "We need to trust in what the word says and leave our own reasoning alone and if it bothers you that much then ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the Truth"

    So far as rape is concerned, I've always said that God is able to bring some of the greatest people and sitiations out of the worst people and situations. This is not easy as you said but the support of the church and strong biblical council are essential even if adoption is exercised as an option.


  8. Feeno,

    Thanks for coming over my friend and you're welcome to post anytime so don't be reluctant. You said:

    "As mad as I get sometimes at these Dr's and Law makers and politicians, I must realize they are being influenced by "evil forces". And so we must combat this battle spiritually. Mainly through prayer. (and fasting for everyone other than me.)

    And I think that's the key here. We must battle spiritually and ask God to open the eyes of the medical profession and professionals. I believe that they already know that the fetus is a human being. I believe that has been scientifically verified with information that wasn't available when abortion became the law of the land. Now the abortion indistry is into reasons to justify the killing, and as stated here, too many people only want to justify their sins, so they use any information to do that even if it's wrong information (similar to many of the arguments we note at DC right?) So there is a struggle to reduce the creation of God and the "image" of God to nothing and reduce that image to the "image" of other animals similar to what Paul said in Romans 1.

    What you said under #6, I've noticed that is another confusion and misdirection about this. I noticed that the doctors here say "Trust Women" as if to say the the anti-abortionist has a disrespect for women and that the women were suggesting that they have abortions in the first place. Once again, I don't because they don't keep records (what a surprise) but it sounds like a big "cop-out" to me. Doctors hiding behind the women to justify their actions...

    Sounds like Adam doesn't it???


  9. feeno, could this be a case of the wicked destroying the wicked, God permitted?

    This occurs all the time, why should it be treated as a special case scenario with abortionists?

  10. W'dup gcmwatch

    I'm not sure what you mean by that.
    Could you please explain. That sounds interesting, maybe you can give me another scenario?

    Dueces, feeno

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  12. feeno,

    I see this as the wicked (murderer) murdering the wicked (Tiller). It is not an uncommon occurence everyday (gang wars, drug dealers, mafia, etc). From the perspective live by the sword, die by the sword. As such, God allows.

    Thats not a commentary on the value/sanctity of human life. In short, neither man was justified in his murderous crimes and are a part of a social subset, if you will where such things are inevitable.

    For a clearer example, God allowed the Babylonians, Assyrians and others to punish "his people" when they fell into a state of gross wickedness. Then he would exact revenge on those whom he allowed to carry out the act.

    45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.
    46And lest your heart faint, and ye fear for the rumour that shall be heard in the land; a rumour shall both come one year, and after that in another year shall come a rumour, and violence in the land, ruler against ruler.
    47Therefore, behold, the days come, that I will do judgment upon the graven images of Babylon: and her whole land shall be confounded, and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her.
    48Then the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD.
    49As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth.''
    (Jeremiah 51:45-49)

    Im not saying Tiller is Isreal and the killer is babylon, just comparing big picture principle that God allows, perhaps even sanctions the punishment of the wicked by the hand of those who are themselves wicked.

  13. 'Sup gwatch

    I believe God allows things, because of free will. And although I really like the "live by the sword, die by the sword" principle, I don't know if it applies here? Maybe I would if they both had swords or guns and Tiller at least had a fighting chance?

    But to be totally honest, I remember the Betty Broderick story, (do you?) Anyways I kinda felt like tho I believed she was wrong and her actions were selfish, (she had 4-5 kids) and murder should never be justified, her husband and his new young lover brought at least a minuscule of culpability upon themselves. Again I don't believe they should have been shot down, they didn't deserve that, but it was there actions that led to that horrible scene. I'm not blaming the victims, just pointing out how sin destroys.

    I know life is a little more complicated than a country song. But yesterday I ended one of my comments on my blog with the lyrics of one, I think it could apply here,"God is great, beer is good and people are crazy".

    Later fam, feeno

  14. Feeno,

    I agree with you that there can be no distinction as to what lives are valuable etc, at least on our end. I don't believe we're in a position to say that a "sinner's" life is expendible in some fashion or is less valuable than another's life to the degree that when a sinner kills another, that's "the chickens coming home to roost". That's not a wholesome view.

    On the other hand, like in 2 Chron. 20:20, when Israel was surrounded by 3 enemies, God confused the enemy in that the enemy destroyed themselves. Now the difference was that the "enemy" was bent on destroying the people of God.

    In this situation we have 2 people that "think" (and at least one "thought") their practices are ordained by God. The dr. and the murderer would offer plenty of testimony as to why their actions are right. I don't see a biblical parrallel for that at least right off but I'll think about it further.

    So this scenario is one well worth examining. maybe there are others similarly aligned and examination of the facts here and biblical perspectives could shed some light on situations.

    "Deuces" Feeno

  15. So doctor Hern, in saying he won't do certain for the woman who broke up with her boyfriend...does NOT think it is the woman's choice!

    He thinks it is HIS choice!

    What a hypocrite.

  16. Andrew,

    As I see it her choice to kill another human being effectively ended when that human being was conceived.

    Why should I or anyone else have the right to kill you or anyone else simply because my circumstance in life changes?

    The mother has a greater responsibility to safeguard life because it's not hers.

    That's my take.


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