Former COGIC Pastor Now A Catholic Deacon

"It was never about going to heaven or knowing the Lord. Those things were accomplished while I was in the Pentecostal church. It was simply coming into the fullness of the Christian faith."~ Deacon Alex Jones, St. Suzanne/Our Lady Gate of Heaven Catholic Community former Pastor Of Maranatha Christian Church Detroit Michigan.

A friend presented a DVD for my review called "No Price Too High, A Dinner With Alex Jones". The DVD centered around a former COGIC Pastor (Alex Jones) turned independent, and eventually turned Catholic. This particular DVD was a conversation over dinner in which there were questions and answers about why he and most of his church changed from a decidedly Protestant/Pentecostal belief system to the world's oldest and largest Christian Church, the Roman Catholic Church.

Deacon Jones' story was especially interesting to me personally because our church, at one time, held services in a Catholic church. It was at that time that we gained the opportunity to meet some of our fellow Catholic believers and established a relationship with many new Catholic friends. I also took the time to study many Catholic beliefs, practices and dogmas and drew my own conclusions as to what the church actually represented. In addition Alex Jones was a former COGIC Pastor which is very interesting in light of COGIC's current dealings and political situations.

This blog post is not about bashing or exposing Alex Jones. There is nothing to bash or expose in my opinion. However, this post is about drawing a sharp and distinguished contrast between Roman Catholic authority, theology and dogma and the rest of Christianity.

I believe that there are many sincerely saved Catholics, however I believe, as John MacArthur also expresses, that for many within the Catholic church, salvation is in spite of the actual teaching, encouragements and traditions of the Catholic Catechisms which the Catholic church claims at a minimum to be equal to the written word of God. Believe me there is no perfect church on earth, and my church, The Church Of God In Christ, is filled with issues, as I have mentioned readily on this blog. The point is once again not to bash Catholics, however I felt important to highlight certain differences upon which the life and eternal destiny of many is predicated. I'll proceed with my 10 Questions:

Alex Jones On His Conversion To Catholicism:

Question 1. You were a Pentecostal pastor for number of years. What churches were you a part of and how long did you serve? Did you start your own church? Tell us more about your family/church history.

Alex Jones: "I was raised in the Church of God in Christ, the first original pentecostal church founded in 1895 and later became pentecostal in 1906 after the Azuza Street Revival. My first pastorate was the church in which I was raised. I pastored that church from 1975 to 1982. My second pastorate was Maranatha Christian Church, a non-denominational church I founded in 1982. I pastored Maranatha for 18 yrs. (1982-2000)"

Question 2. From the interview I saw on the DVD "No Price Too High, A Dinner With Alex Jones" it seems that you highly value the associations and friendships that you’ve been able to make within the Catholic church. I know that Pastors are often the most isolated individuals within the church. I am interested to know, before you joined the Catholic church, what were your pastoral or ministerial relationships like? Did you fellowship or have close relationships with other ministers, and did that have any bearing on ultimately being a part of the Catholic church?

Alex Jones: "I fellowshipped with other non-denominational churches; in fact, I was part of a six-church fellowship. By the way, three of the six pastors still meet with me twice a month for fellowship and relaxation. They had absolutely no bearing on my decision to become Catholic. At first they struggled with my decision, but they never opposed or said, "What are you doing?" Later they accepted me back into their bi-monthly fellowship as their "little Catholic brother.""

Question 3: When you joined the Catholic church you and your congregation made the decision to dissolve your former church. What was the rationale behind that decision? I mean was there ever a consideration to appoint a successor to carry on the work with the members who did not wish to leave, instead of closing the church all together?

Alex Jones: "After a majority of the remaining members decided to enter the Catholic Church with me, by law I was required to contact everyone who had been a member of Maranatha for the last five years and ask them what should be done. Letters went out to everyone to meet with me for the purpose of determining what to do with the church's assets. I offered to sign the ministry over to anyone who wanted to carry Maranatha on, but only one of the five ministers that belonged to Maranatha showed up. I asked those attending the meeting if they wanted to continue the ministry under the leadership of that attending minister. They said no and decided to close the church and give the money to charity.

Question 4. I'd like you to speak to the critic for just a minute. One thing that is obvious is that the Catholic Church has less than 30,000 black members in your area out of an approximate 1.3 million membership. Is your association with the Catholic church and rise to notoriety within it simply a marketing opportunity or scheme to attract more minority members?

Alex Jones: "No. Catholics love conversion stories. There may be only 30,000 black Catholics in the Archdiocese of Detroit, but the largest black denomination in the Western Hemisphere is Catholicism! In Africa alone there are over 100 million Catholics.

Alex Jones On Catholic Doctrine & Traditions:

Question 5. Making the transition to the Catholic church itself; in 2007 Pope Benedict XVI restated the views he fostered in the 2000 Dominus Iesus which stated that Protestant churches are unauthentic and are only mere "ecclesial communities" and as reported by The Gauardian.Com UK, their ministers effectively phonies with no right to give communion. In fact here is the language of part of that document:

"the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: ‘a single Catholic and apostolic Church."

In that same statement The Pope claimed that the Orthodox church also from a "defectus" (or wound) because it wasn’t and would not come under Papal authority. That basically tells me that the Catholic church does not hold the work of Christ through even me or my ministry as being of Christ or authentic. What are your views on the Pope’s decision to say these things? Do you think his commentary fosters or hinders dialogue between the catholic Church and other Christians outside of the Catholic church? Do your views matter?

Alex Jones: Dominus Iesus was written by Cardinal Ratzinger who later became Pope Benedict XVI. In a very succinct answer, the Cardinal was simply saying that there is only one Church built upon the apostles and prophets. It only follows that that church would grow from a small seed and become a great tree. This tree is a visible entity that has four visible marks: unity, holiness, catholicity and apostolicity. Only the Catholic and Orthodox, both of which comprises one church divided by politics and culture, have these marks. The Catholic Church teaches the following on our separated brethren:

CC,819:"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and eccelsial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

The Catholic Church never characterizes Protestants ministers as "phonies," but as their separated brothers. Eccelsial communities simply means religious organizations that preach Christ, but remember, there is only ONE Church. The Catechism teaches:

CC 816:"The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, [John 21:15-17] commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it...This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him." Harvey, I suggest you read the following Catholic documents about ecumenism: Ad Gentes, Unitatis Redintegration and Ut Unum Sint.

[To take a quick break there as this gets to the heart of a very serious issue. There are two things at work at the heart of catholic doctrine as displaced in Deacon Jone's retort, both of which are fallacious in nature and unsupported by scripture: 1-The assertion that Peter was the rock that Jesus was referring to in Matt. 16:18 which reads: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter(Gk: Petros-a rock or stone), and upon this rock (Gk: Petra- Large mountainous cliff or Boulder)I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

The Catholic Church's interpretation is that the Apostle Peter is the rock or stone upon which the church is built. If so, there's more wrong than the price of tea in China than we originally thought, as Peter was NOT the mountain of truth upon which the New testament church was built. A quick look at scripture clearly displays that Paul was the most significant figure within New Testament Christianity especially as it pertained to the evangelization of gentiles. Paul's influence yet yet remains today.

It is better understood that the ROCK upon which the New Testament church would be and was built was and is the declaration of truth that Peter renders just a couple of verses previous (v:16): "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." The confession that Jesus was the Christ (Messiah) The Son of the living God (sharing the nature of God) was the declaration and mountainous truth by which Peter was blessed was the rock (mountainous fact) upon which Jesus built and would build his New Testament Church. No one was saved by confessing Peter or his works, but all would be saved by confessing Christ (Rom. 10:8-9) The church would not be built upon a man. In order for it to stand it would need more than a man. It would need God himself. Jesus is God! I agree with Edward Mote (1797-1874) "On Christ the solid rock I stand, All other ground is sinking sand" ~1834

The second misunderstanding found here is the misconception that Peter and the Apostles were charged to "rule" or "reign" over the church in some fashion. The truth is that the leaders were called to SERVE not rule or reign as a King or some sort of icon. This misunderstanding hinges upon the first and creates a very dangerous and in stable house of cards upon which Catholic Catechismic tradition has been built.]

Mk. 10:43-44~"43-But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44-And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all."

Unfortunately, the catholic church yet views other Christian churches as subordinate groups that are a mission field to be engrafted within the larger scheme of the church.

Vatican II & Eccelsial Communities

"The Council fathers acknowledged that, despite their long separation from the unity intended by Christ, the Protestant churches retained the Church’s resolve to preserve the doctrines given by Christ. As Fr. Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) wrote in his Theological Highlights of Vatican II, the schema on ecumenism was "a pastoral directive to Catholics to turn their attention to ecumenism," that is, to reach out to separated brethren in hopes of bringing them back into full communion with the Church"

That's called the evangelization of other Christians who don't serve under the Pope.]

Alex Jones On The Supreme Authority Of The Scripture:

Question 6: In a previous interview you stated the following regarding the bible:

"I came to understand that the Christian faith was much richer than what a Bible-alone approach could offer. The Bible is true, but not comprehensive. Scripture is the core of Christianity, but surrounding it and interpreting it is the tradition of the church, which includes development of doctrine, apostolic succession and the evolution of the sacraments. In the end, the Catholic church is the pillar and ground of truth, not the Bible. The church produced the Bible."

With that said, Deacon Jones, I would like to know specifically what you think is to be held in greater esteem, the written word or the tradition of the church? Secondly, but no less importantly, if there is a practice that the word or bible does not condone, but the church by way of tradition endorses, according to your current understanding, what choice should be made by the believer?

Alex Jones: "The problem is seen in our differing approaches to tradition. Tradition in and of itself is not bad, unless it violates God's commandment (Mat. 15; Mk 7). The Christian faith in its entirety was handed down in Apostolic Traditions, which contained both oral and written accounts (1 Cor 11:2, 16; 2 Thes 2:15). There is nothing the Catholic Church embraces and teaches that contradicts God's written word. God's word has the preemience over any and all traditions. Having said this, most non-Catholics will point to Mariology, Purgatory, papal infallibility, sacraments, iconography, statues, etc. ad nauseam as non-biblical additions to the Christian faith. Again, such views demonstrate a real lack of knowledge about what the Catholic Church really believes and teaches. If you want, Harvey, I can send you the book: What The Catholics Really Believe. [Emphasis Added]

[There is no greater point that can be made here. The Catholic church DOES teach doctrines that are not found within scripture and some that are contrary to scripture. In fact Pastor John MacArthur lays out the case against Mary Worship quite well using historical facts. Other doctrines such as purgatory and Papal Infallibility fare equally as well as not being biblical.

The Catholic church however, views "tradition" as equal with scripture especially as it pertains to times that the Pope (which ever one is in office) speaks "ex-cathedra" That is without the possibility of being wrong.

Jesus warned about this sort of approach where tradition minimizes the word of God. In his discourse to the Pharisees who were in judgement of the disciples for not following the added teachings regarding ceremonial washings Jesus concluded:

Mk. 7:13 ~ "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."

Now, sound traditions as deacon Jones pointed out is essential to faith practice and the polity of the saints:

2 Thess. 2:15~"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

But all of that only leads us to our next question and answer:]

Question 7. In your DVD there was a 10 to 20 minute discussion regarding certain Catholic doctrines. One of noteable interest was that of prayers made to Mary in particular. There were 2 things to note about this discussion. 1- I noticed that the discussion initially centered on the difference between western society's view prayer and English society's view of prayer. In fact statements were made that prayer, according to us in the west includes worship, whereas prayer in England was more about asking someone for assistance and did not necessarily include and element of worship. The biblical model for prayer however was neither a product of England nor of the West and was always directed to God. In fact, the Greek word proseuchomai which always carried the connotation of praying to the Supreme God himself.

The second thing that is notable is that church tradition, holds the same about prayer. Origen says this about prayer:

"It is improper to pray to those beings who themselves offer up prayers. For even they themselves would prefer that we should send up our requests to the god to whom they pray, rather than send them downwards to themselves, or to apportion our power of prayer between God and them" Origen (c.248,E) 4.548 [ David W Bercot "Dictionary Of Early Christian Beliefs" Henderickson Publishers 1998 pg. 533]

Having made those observations, on what basis do you justify prayer to Mary or any other Saint in heaven or otherwise?

Alex Jones: "I'm sure the citation from Origen was not talking about Christians. The practice of praying to saints began with the Neroan persecutions in 62 AD when living Christians would kneel at the grave of martyrs and ask them to pray for them. The earliest Christian art, ca 92 AD, shows the Blessed Virgin on a sarcophagus interceding for Peter and Paul. The communion of saints shows the inter-relatedness of the Church Triumphant with the Church Militant."

[Unfortunately for Catholic dogma, Origen was talking about all men including Christians who engage in idolatry or prayer to beings outside of God. In his debate and refutation of the heretical teaching of Celsus, Origen confirms true Christian practice regarding prayer:

"Celsus forgets that he is addressing Christians, who pray to God alone through Jesus." [Origen (c.248,E) 4.653 [David W Bercot "Dictionary Of Early Christian Beliefs" Henderickson Publishers 1998 pg. 533]

The object of Christian prayer was not to individuals in heaven or otherwise, and to base a spiritual and theological belief on a work of art is totally unfounded and unheard of in any religious system of which I am aware. The object of prayer was always God through Jesus Christ.]

Ephes.3:20-21 ~ "20-Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21-Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."

Alex Jones On Catholic Teachings Against Homosexuality:

Question 8: Speaking to issues of modern inclusion, what is the official position of the catholic church on homosexuality especially among the ever increasing "gay christian movement"?

Alex Jones: "You will find the teaching of the Church about homosexuality in the Catechism, sections 2357-2359"

[Here are the sections to shich he is referring:]

Chastity and homosexuality:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Source(s):
Catechism of the Catholic Church

Question 9: Decons were powerful within the bible. The first martyr was Stephen, a deacon (Acts 7:59).Philip turned Samaria on it’s ear and he was a deacon (Acts 8:5). Deacons are essential to the work of the church, however we note that your were formerally a Pastor and initially held out hope to be appointed a priest within the Catholic church, noting that there are some 80 dioscese that allow married priests especially when they come into the church such as you did. Your Bishop, however has denied this office to you on 2 occasions. Previously you said, "Both times the answer was no, so that’s that," however, you also said, "If they offered it to me, (Priesthood) I’d take it in a heartbeat, but it’s not likely in this diocese. They don’t allow married priests." (emphasis added)With that said, are you content to serve in the Deacon capacity? Do you plan to appeal to become a priest?

Alex Jones: Remember, "All things work together for the good to those who love God and are the called according to his purpose" (Rom 8:28). "A deacon in the Catholic Church is part of the clergy, having been ordained into one of the three orders: Bishop, presbyter, deacon. I am not actively seeking ordination to the priesthood; I'm quite satisfied to fulfill God's work as a deacon."

Question 10: What do you feel your current mission is to the body of Christ? To the Catholic church?

Alex Jones: "When I entered the Church I had only three aspirations: to live a life of prayer, to give myself to study, and to work with the poor. I still have those things in mind. My current ministry of traveling and speaking will certainly come to an end. Then, and only then, will I live out the life Christ has called me to live."

Conclusion:

This concludes my interview with Deacon Alex Jones and I wish to appreciate and say "thank you" to both he and his family for allowing this highly important and significant information to go forth.

I must say that one thing stands out in my mind. Under Question 2 Deacon Jones stated this about his ministerial friends, "At first they struggled with my decision, but they never opposed or said, "What are you doing?" Decon Jones I don't believe that true friends could sit idly by and let you slip from Pastoring the flock of God and an AUTHENTIC CHURCH, (whether recognized by the Pope or not, your previous church was not simply a mere eclessial community). IF God called you to Pastor, the Pope, Bishop or noone else has the right to minimize that call. What men control men bless, what God controls IS blessed and that is by HIM.

Blessed!