Monday, August 31, 2009

Islam, Submission With No Peace Pt. 1

Biblical truth is challenged like never before. Although this is highly disputed, many speculate that the fastest growing religion in the world today is Islam. With over an estimated 1 billion adherents statistics are that by year 2025 over 30 % of the world's population will be Islamic or under Islamic rule and that Islam will eclipse Christianity as the world's largest religion at some point between now, then or shortly thereafter.[Barrett & Johnson's estimated in an article in the International Bulletin of Missionary Research that the number of Muslims would grow from 1.22 billion in the year 2000 to 1.89 billion by 2025...Author Samuel Huntington predicts that "Muslims in the world will continue to increase dramatically, amounting to 20 percent of the world's population about the turn of the [21st] century, surpassing the number of Christians some years later..."]

Does Islam have an answer that is unknown to Christianity? Is Islam, especially that practiced within traditional Islamic countries somehow superior or more satisfying than the teachings of Christianity?

In the next couple of posts, we will look at what Islam teaches and contrast that to the bible and the biblical record. We are quickly approaching the 9th month which is the most holy time of year for the Muslim called Ramadan. So this information, especially at this time, promises to be an intriguing and eyeopening mini-series. For those observing or relating with someone who observes Muslim and Islamic tradition, I hope that you will better understand some of the traditions and possible worldview that many believers of Islam share. Let's begin:

What Is Islam and Where Did It Come From?

It was in the 9th month of approximately 610 AD, when a man known as the prophet Muhammad (c. 570-632), (assured by his wife Khadijeh that he was a prophet and an apostle (Rasoul)) received a special revelation and words from who he believed was the angel Gabriel. These words came to him while he was in a trance or a trance like state or condition. The words he received were recited and written, thus Quran means "recitation" The words were written down by those who heard him or were present when these episodes occurred. In fact here was the message from the angel:

"Recite in the name of the Lord, created from the clots of blood. Recite seeing that the Lord is most generous, who has taught by the pen, taught man what he did not know"~Sura 96:1-5
The messages Muhammad received over a 22 year span of time was the message of "submission". Thus Islam simply means submission and in this case submission to God or the Arabic version of the word, Allah. For years many were under the false impression that Islam meant peace. According to Islamic scholars Islam can only mean "peace" when one is "submitted" to God. Therefore the accurate definition of the word Islam, is submission.

"You have not believed until you say, "We have submitted ourselves” ~ Sura 49:19 {This is a saying of Muhammad}

The Quran is divided into chapters called Suras since only one man spoke there was no need for additional subtitles. According to Sura 33:40 Muhammad is said to be the "Seal Of The Prophets" which means that he was the last and greatest of all of God's prophets. Initially Mecca, the birthplace of Muhammad, was overtaken with multiple forms of idol worship and because of such this "new" teaching of strict monotheism, couldn't get off the ground. Therefore there had to be a trip taken to a more accepting region. So on Sept. 24th 622AD the first Hijra (migration) occurred to what would become known as Medina. One of the first acts of Muhammad after this transition was to immediately preform raids against the caravans of the enemies of Allah or pagans. This was done based on words Muhammad received:

"O Prophet strive hard against unbelievers and be firm against them." ~ Sura 9:73
This "striving" was the first form of Jihad. Notice that this striving was to be carried out on all of them that did not believe in exclusivity of Allah as the Supreme God. In fact in a battle against Jews at Banu Quraiza, Muhammad's forces killed over 1,000 Jewish men while the women and children were sold into slavery and spoils divided amongst the soldiers as compensation. Later in 628 AD, Muhammad, 2 years into a 10 year peace treaty with the rulers of the city of Mecca, broke the peace treaty and attacked Mecca with over 10,000 men, taking control of the city and destroying all idols associated with the worship of other Gods. Muhammad gained control religiously and militarily by this revelation:

"Kill those who join other Gods"~ Sura 9:5

But remember that was only AFTER he had received this revelation:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion"~Sura 2:256

Now that Muhammad had control of Mecca, he also had the religious capital of the nonbeliever. Instead of doing away with such practices as the pilgrimage to Mecca to the Kaaba shrine (Hajj), those practices were encouraged and were absorbed, in modified form, from Arabic paganism. Therefore, Muhammad, in reforming the pre-Islamic Arabic tradition, also confirmed it. By any means necessary!

Additional Important Facts To Know About Muhammad:
  • He never claimed to be without sin
  • He never claimed to preform miracles. The only "miracle" of Muhammad was that of the Quran which is reported as the greatest miracle partially because Muhammad was also said to be illiterate and under education so far as social education is concerned.
  • He claimed to be the last and greatest of all prophets sent by God to Earth.
  • He killed or had others killed (as noted above)due to his Jihad or "striving" for the things of Allah.
    Quick note: The 2 most widely known groups arising after the death of Muhammad arose in the 7th Century, the Shiites (pictured)and the Sunnis. In addition to sharp theological differences, the Shiites believe in Ali as the successor of Muhammad, whereas the Sunnites believe in Omar as the successor of Muhammad. To observe this division and commemorate Ali's leadership, the Shiites annually involve themselves in Ashura or an annual ritual of mourning where they ceremonially cut themselves in commemoration of Ali's battle or striving.

    Allah In Relationship To His Creation & Man:
    1. Although Allah is said to be very near and close to man, {"Closer than his jugular vein" in Sura 50:16} He is seen as being wholly transcendent and never to be mingled with his creation. Therefore God at no time could take on the limitations of humanity in any form.
    2. In Sura 2:190ff it records 24 times that Allah does not love sinners. He only loves those who fear him, Sura 3:76.
    3. The greatest of all evil is Shirk. Simply put this is blasphemy or the association of partners with God. Shirk is also teaching that God has placed himself within his creation in any manifested form.
    4. The oneness and separatist concept is known as Unicity. This teaching says that God reveals his will to mankind but never himself.
    Conversion & Salvation

    How is one converted according to Islam and the Quran? Although the word salvation is never mentioned within the Quran, devotion to Allah as a Muslim can be gained by reciting the Shahadah:

    Shahadah – also known as the Confessions of Islam. There are 5 basic confessions of the Islamic faith. These are also known as the Pillars of the faith. They are as follows:

    1 – “I bear witness that there is no God but God and Muhammad is the prophet of God.” {This is the primary and most important confession} This must be repeated with sincerity and conviction of heart in order to make one a Muslim.
    2 – Ritualistic Prayer as outlined and instructed in the Koran.
    3 – Giving of alms, or giving to the poor.
    4 – Fasting during the month of Ramadan.
    5 – Pilgrimage to Mecca if at all possible.
    Sin and The Promise Of Salvation

    How does one gain or obtain salvation according to Islam? First, please note that sin is not a problem in Islam, as Muhammad himself was a sinner.

    In a particular hadith or "traditions of Muhammad" often told by leaders, Muhammad’s wife asks him to ask Allah to forgive her sins, he responds by saying that he wasn’t sure if his sins were forgiven so how could he ask Allah to forgive hers? Deliverance and freedom from sin is not promised in the Islamic faith. One could be counted as faultless in Sura 2:158 if pilgrimage is made to Mecca, and in Sura 33:35 “forgiveness and great reward” is prepared for all who fast during the month of Ramadan, however if you have an inability to do so or even if you keep all of the words, Salvation is yet never guaranteed.

    Furthermore, sin is not acknowledged as being problematic within the Islamic faith. It is merely explained as another part of our being. In Sura 4:3-34, adultery and fornication can be called temporary marriages to allow for traveling men to relax and entertain themselves. In yet another tradition of Islam, a lie told to help a person is a good lie and therefore not a sin. Ultimately a person wouldn’t have to have their sins forgiven to be “saved” they would merely have to be “good enough” or come to Allah's standards or more good than bad.

    Who Is Jesus In Islam?

    One of the most surprising facts about Islam is their belief in Jesus. However, the belief in Jesus is limited to the status of him being merely a man and prophet of God who was misunderstood. In fact the Quran teaches that the original sayings of Jesus all confirm and point to Muhammad and that the teachings of Jesus in the bible have all been corrupted and taken out of context to say something other than what it was originally intended to say. The following is a summary of Islam beliefs about Jesus:
    1 – Jesus was only a prophet or messenger of God.(Sura 5:75)
    2 – Jesus was born of the virgin Mary
    3 - Jesus was not the "Son Of God"(Sura 9:30)
    4 – Jesus was sinless in life and lifestyle (Sura 19:19)
    5 – Jesus did not die on the cross (Sura 4:157)
    6 – Jesus was a Muslim
    7 – Jesus was taken safely to heaven by God instead of being crucified.
    8 - Jesus will return to liberate the Muslim people and Judge the world of
    injustices placed upon the Muslim people and be subject to the Mahdi
    The Women Of Islam

    I have not seen or studied a religion where women are so devalued. In Islam women are the property of men. Traditionally they must be covered in public by a garment known as a burkha. This is because women are considered to be sexual objects and the cause of men's sexual sins. Any part of their body can lead a man to lust therefore they must be fully covered. In addition, in many traditional Islamic circles women can be divorced for the appearance of unfaithfulness. The "appearance" however is always subjective only needs 4 witnesses and the adultress must be detained in the house "until God appoints for them a way" (Sura 4:15). Aditionally, according to the Quran women can be beat (a little) or so is the interpolation (added to make the verse mor palatable), and are compared to farmland when it comes to intimate love or sexual activity:

    "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first) (Next) refuse to share their beds, (and last)beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance)for Allah is Most High, Most Great (above you all)" ~ Sura 4:34

    "Your wives are as a tilth (farmland) unto you so approach your tilth when or how you will; but do some good act for your souls before hand; and fear Allah, and know that ye are to meet him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe"~Sura 2:223

    Christianity In Relation To Islam

    Muslims teach that the practice of Islam predates all religions and therefore the default religious condition of all is Islam. Christians are said to be the closest to the Muslim people. {Sura 5:85-86} “And nearest among them [Muslims] in love To the believers wilt thou find those who say, We are Christians” 86- “and when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle[Muhammad] thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears for they recognize the truth.”

    In addition as stated above, Surah 9:30 teaches that Christians are deluded for teaching that Jesus is the Christ and shall be cursed as a result. In short there is only a false tolerance of Christianity within Islam as displayed clearly through the teachings of the Quran. This is why many Muslims that convert to Christianity are either killed or have their life threatened. It's simply a one way ticket. Aside from the fact that polytheists can be made to become Muslims, compulsion in religion is no good UNLESS that compulsion is taking one from other religions, Christianity in particular, toward Islam.

    Universal Inclusion & Relativism?

    The Quran teaches that all one needs to do is remain faithful to their religion in order to receive "their reward, with their Lord". So adherance to the Islamic teachings are not necessarily required unless you believe in some form of polytheism.
    "Those who believe, And those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), And the Christians and the Sabians, And any who believe in God, And the Last Day, And work righteousness, Shall have their reward, With their Lord: on them Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.”(Surah 2:62)
    Therefore based on what the Quran teaches, all paths, if they are sincerely followed lead to God. There is not a right or wrong way as long as one is sincere and follows their path. Primarily this means that all religious systems and morality itself is only an illusion. Concepts such as this are ripe for the picking within atheistic circles and also pantheistic circles.


    In This post we have set forth the basics of what Islam is and what it teaches. In the next post we will look at the Nation Of Islam and in the final post give the biblical rebuttal to the assertions of Islam and draw sharp and poignant distinctions between Allah and the God of the Bible and between Islam and Christianity. Islam contends that the message given it was from god through Gabriel the Archangel, however suffice it to say, that unless there is great and serious confusion in heaven, either one of these two religions (Islam or Christianity) is demonically inspired. You can guess which one I believe is nothing more than a variation of resurgent baalism and a product of demons...need I say more?



    1. This is an extensive amount of information. The religion of Islam is flawed by default, because there is no sactification with in it.

      There is no holyness, so there for how can one have rightousness with in themselves? The very founder of this religion isn't even rightous. Therefore, who do they (notice I say "they", not "we") model themsevles after?

      Galatians 1:6-9 (King James Version)

      6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

      7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

      8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

      9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

      According to the Word, this belief system and anyone who preches this message is accursed. The Word of God is amazing because notice in verse 8 where is says, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel."
      They claim that this message came from an angel (aka unclean spirit). I'm not sure of time in which this verse was given to Paul through inspiration of God. But if it was before the time when Islam was created, verse 8 looks like a prophecy that came true in relation to islam.

    2. Also Islam cannot be called a "Gospel" because there is no message of salvation. I dont know what to call this. In this message, there is no hope for rightousness to prevail in an evil world.

    3. Servant Of The Most High God,

      Powerful and absolutely correct. This is "another" gospel. One NOT sent by God in any way.

      Friday's post will center on the Nation Of Islam and as bad as this is on traditional Islam, they are even worse.

      This is what's called a "doctrine of devils". What proliferates this false doctrine is illitracy. many in the islamic world can't read and some of those can't read Arabic and there is prohibition against translating the Quran and reading it in any other language other than Arabic.

      I know some people from the mid-east who can't read or understand Arabic dialect. In fact in one province of Pakistan, the dialect is totally different just 50 miles away and people can't hardly understand one another.

      So this prohibition within the Quran has its purpose of addig to and perpetuating the confusion. so a lot of people are simply born into it, told what to do and they follow it without ever having read it or even understood it for themselves.

      Another thing is the read of the Quran. It's jumbled and a complete mess. Chronology is out of order and absolutely no secondary resources to confirm much of any facts contained within it. Adherents say it's so "beautiful" that it can't be comprehended without an Islamic and submitted mind.

      Convenient to say the least.

    4. I really appreciate your unpacking and explaining the basic beliefs and tenets of Islam. I just returned a few months ago from working in Saudi Arabia... and I had very little grasping of why they did the things they did, so this was helpful.

      I've been christian/pentecostal a good portion of my life, but from my trip it was very clear that this religion had an iron-clad grip on every facet of life although people barely had some understanding of why they did things--like none of the women could explain to me why they had to wear the burkha (yep, I had to wear one as well, so I wanted to know)

      That whole "submission" piece is right on target; it is a out double-meaning, because Islam all seems peaceful at appearances; but really in Islam, it's either you submit to their beliefs/ways or die...just like you detailed from giving a little history of their origin-- it is a war culture and in fact a war god, that I think they serve.

      Does anyone know why they have a moon symbol on all of their least this was the case in Saudi?

      From my trip to saudi, I was shocked at the level of brainwashing and evangelism that is in place...they usually have about 15 of their 20 television channels devoted to their ministry or preachers talking about Islam and praying on tv(I mean until 3AM in the morning they aer still on); and I even saw Americans and on saudi T.V. talking about their conversions...further, Saudi sends out about a million muslim bibles to the world on some special day.

      I also think you're right on target about their works--when I was there, it was always about, you could only move up in the company I worked for, if you were the most Muslim or did the right types of Muslim works or belonged to the right sect. From all my conversations there in Saudi, it was clear that this was a religion of works and not faith.

      I think when the new testament talks about the child of faith that Sarah had (Christians) and the child of works that Hagar had (Muslims and others) is the perfect fit...all that praying, bowing, reading, hajjing--and they are still lost. It's really so sad...I did mention Jesus to someone there and they had a visceral reaction of sad.

    5. In Christ,

      Thank you so much for your evaluation and your experiences. That was right on time and a clear confirmation of much of what was cited. Believe me, I do not wish to inaccurately represent Islam. The truth of Islam can stand unencumbered and JESUS is still clearly the Only way of hope and salvation.

      This is one of those religions in foriegn countries that it will cost your life if you deconvert from. I have received much information about various converts being persecuted, threatened and even killed. Granted I don't get out much (believe it or not) so I have to take the inforamtion I receive on face value and through netwroking with individuals I know, so I believe there are some credible problematic stories associate with Islam.

      You asked this:Does anyone know why they have a moon symbol on all of their least this was the case in Saudi?

      This is VERY interesting and I could teach a complete bible class on it but it begins right here:

      Judges 8:18-21 ~ "18-And he said to Zebah and Zalmunna, “What kind of men were they whom you killed at Tabor?” So they answered, “As you are, so were they; each one resembled the son of a king.” 19-Then he said, “They were my brothers, the sons of my mother. As the Lord lives, if you had let them live, I would not kill you.” 20-And he said to Jether his firstborn, “Rise, kill them!” But the youth would not draw his sword; for he was afraid, because he was still a youth. 21-So Zebah and Zalmunna said, “Rise yourself, and kill us; for as a man is, so is his strength.” So Gideon arose and killed Zebah and Zalmunna, and took the crescent ornaments that were on their camels’ necks."

      Gideon under the hand of God defeated the princes and kings of Midian. The last 2 kings were Zebah and Zalmunna....They decorated their camels with "crescent ornaments" These were the "crescent moons" that islam would later adopt. Why? Partially because of this understanding:

      Judges 8:24~"Then Gideon said to them, “I would like to make a request of you, that each of you would give me the earrings from his plunder.” For they had gold earrings, because they were Ishmaelites.

      Those Midianite Kings were not only Midianites they were Ishmaelites...Guess what?

      "Muhammad claimed Ishmael as his ancestor, as do most Arabs."
      [Youngblood, Ronald F., General Editor; F.F. Bruce and R.K. Harrison, Consulting Editors, Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1995.]

      The practice of the crescent moon and reproduction of stars etc. was also baalism and idol worship.

      This is what God said not to do:

      Ex. 20:4~"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;"

      Baalism was an astral religion and religious system. Astral religions pattern their idols after what is viewed in the heavens. Islam is an astral religion and religious system. The only difference between Islam and baalism of history is that Islam is monotheistic.

      Sistah that is DEEP and God has a word for us...That also happens to be one of my favorite OT topics and verses of scripture.


    6. Pastor Burnett, this was a very insightful article. Any thoughts on why Pres. Obama had a special dinner in celebration of Ramadan, but did not chose to make any special observance of the National Day of Prayer? I understand that past Presidents also acknowledged Ramadan, but most also proclaimed a National Day of Prayer. Also, do you know if any of our African American Christian leaders have "called" him on this? (From where I'm standing, the silence is deafening!)

    7. Concerned Saint,

      Yes that is something isn't it? The President hold the Muslim religion in high esteem (at least openly) and certainly doesn't want to be identified as a man of "Christian" faith only...he then knows there's no room for Islam etc. It's totally political. In addition i believe his father was a Muslim before he became an atheist.

      So far as people calling him on it, Janet Parshalls, James Dobson, and even Glenn Beck have taken him to task about his "Muslim love", but the push now is to strip conservatives of their credibility by declaring them to be extremists. So they are talked down and laws are being instituted to address them and US specifically.

      So there has been a lot of wrangling and hiding of truth. There's also a lot of bluffing going on to try to put opposition to shame. I can go back through his speeches and give the President's words on his exaltation of the Muslim faith. I may do that.

    8. "Muhammad claimed Ishmael as his ancestor, as do most Arabs."

      They also say that Abraham took Ismeal up on the mountain, not Isaac, and Ishmael received the promise.

      Muslims have an average of 8 kids, Americans have 1.8, barely enough to sustain our race/heritage. Do the math- it doesn't look good for us.

      Right now, I just look at the direction our country and government is going and just hope people (more than just some conservatives) wake up real soon. There may be coming a day when you won't be able to post an article like this.

    9. I found out today that a masssive Islamic prayer service will be held on Capitol Hill in D.C. at the end of this month,50,000 Muslims are expected to participate.What is going on in the White House?

    10. Laura & Walter,

      Isn't that something??? right before our eyes we see all kinds of things and what i call rampant deterioration.

      Now I'm for religious freedom, but IF the state is NOT going to endorse religion, then endorse NO religion. we can't get a quasi-mix or "endorse what we feel like" or whatever is "politically expedient" for us to endorse. That's a travesty. This is what's happening.

      Yess, like I said I am aware of the effort to stop voices like mine and others from even being able to addres subjects like this the way we do...Canada already outlawed open speech condemning homosexuality, and if that stuff catches on in the US on homosexuality and religion...this will be a TOTAL mess!


    11. the moon symbols they do bear significance--thanks for the scriptures. I'll have to read that passage.

      "Muhammad claimed Ishmael as his ancestor, as do most Arabs.They also say that Abraham took Ismeal up on the mountain, not Isaac, and Ishmael received the promise."

      Not only do they think that Ishmael was the chosen one, but they also believes Esau to be the chosen one and that Jacob was rejected. Yes they believe Abraham to be their father like the Jews, but there is a whole twisting of the old testatment, with their bible being full of even more switcharoos like these.

      The key problem with Esau and not Jacob, and Ishmael and not Issac being the chosen ones, is that it absolutely removes any hint of possibility that Jesus is the chosen one, because the lineage of Ishmael and Esau does not lead to him. So naturally, they would have a different gives a whole new meaning to the scripture "the god of this world blinds them..."
      And let me tell you, in the middle east, lineage and ancestry is a really big deal; one of my muslim coworkers used to carry his family tree in his wallet; he would "proudly" trace his line all the way back to abraham. He would tell us this long drawn story as he would go through this intricate familly tree.

      I would like to agree with others, being Muslim is like the new "black"...that's why people like Rick Warren and all his holding hands with muslims to teach them how they can have "church growth" and a "purpose-driven" mosque--gives me the creeps.
      Christianisty and Islam are not one and the same; they are directly antithetical to each other.

    12. "that's why people like Rick Warren and all his holding hands with muslims to teach them how they can have "church growth" and a "purpose-driven" mosque--gives me the creeps."

      Like that Open Letter to Muslims by US clergy (hosted by Yale U.) a year or so ago. Where we (them) pretended we worshiped their moon god too.

      I found the link:

      There was so much bending in that letter - it rivaled Obama's bow. Talk about creepy!

      Pastor, I'm ready for more and more persecution for my faith, and I would die any day before I would denounce my Savior. I almost feel like updating my address book and phone numbers because I sense that something is going to happen, an emergency of some sort, that will change our lives and freedoms overnight.

      I'm not paranoid, but I can connect the dots. We are not without hope, however;
      God is in control.

    13. In Christ,

      You said:"that's why people like Rick Warren and all his holding hands with muslims to teach them how they can have "church growth" and a "purpose-driven" mosque--gives me the creeps."

      You mean to tell me Slick Rick did that? Do you have a link? I know he's said some things previously but I have seen "The Purpose Driven Mosque" That would be horriffic!

    14. Laura,

      Thanks for that link. I found these things interesting:

      and the best basis for future dialogue and understanding, is the love of God and the love of the neighbor.

      The love of God and the love of neighbor...I guess if you're a Muslim then you can be loved both by God and other Muslims, until then you're trash and god certainly can't love you under any circumstance...Nothing like John 3:15-16 exists in the Quran...NOTHING!

      Then they said:Rather than engage in polemic, the signatories have adopted the traditional and mainstream Islamic position of respecting the Christian scripture and calling Christians to be more, not less, faithful to it.

      Of course there is no compullsion in religion and all men will have peace "with their God". This being from a monotheist religion. What is the hidden message...You'll be damned to HELL for not accepting the Muslim version of truth called Islam...This whole statement is a farce.

      Then this:"but it does so on the most solid theological ground possible: the teachings of the Qu’ran and the Prophet r, and the commandments described by Jesus Christ u in the Bible."

      The "most solid theological grounds possible"? Jesus and Prophet r??? But look's the "commandments DESCRIBED" by Jesus in the bible. Not the commandments OF Jesus as Lord over the commandments AS HE DESCRIBED

      I see a FAKE comin' a mile away. this type of rhetoric is so easy to read through it's pathetic.

      That was just the statement...I'll critique the actual paper's a mess too I'm sure.

    15. One little trick that is used by people who want to simply homogenize the truth is the technique of not seperating religious and social values.

      I'll explain: The Christian response to "A Common Word" states:
      Since muslims seek to love their Christian neighbors, they are not against them, the document encouragingly states."~[Paragraph 10 "Loving God And Neighbor Together: A Chrsitian response to A Common Word Between Us and You"]

      This treatment of the statement DOES NOT distinguish the diference between religious values and social values. In other words, i can stand for TRUTH and stand for god WITHOUT being against anyone socially or morally. They blur and even eliminate the line of of separation and basically claim that it's a conflict to stand for truth and stand against damaging spiritual and religious ideas and principles.

      This is the lie and why these 300 scholars are adding to the deception of Islam. It cannot be overstated that a person can stand strong against heresy (which islam is) and stand 100% with and for the persons social welfare and humananitarian needs.

      the difference between Islam and Christianity is that Christians want all people to be blessed and the ultimate blessing is to be saved...Islam wants all nonconverts to to their beliefs to be damned and there is NO CONCERN about the welafre or social condition of the "infidel" or "people of the book" (Christians) who reject their apostasy.

      WEAK LEADERSHIP AND SCHOLARSHIP is a travesty and will be judged by God!

    16. This treatment of the statement DOES NOT distinguish the diference between religious values and social values. In other words, i can stand for TRUTH and stand for god WITHOUT being against anyone socially or morally. They blur and even eliminate the line of of separation and basically claim that it's a conflict to stand for truth and stand against damaging spiritual and religious ideas and principles.

      Pastor, I didn't even see that. You should have a hay-day with the so-called "Christian response" to their letter. It's been awhile since I read it, but mostly I remember that the clergy didn't correct them in reducing Jesus, but bended and pretended that we are worshipping the same God - even calling Muhammad a prophet. Was he a prophet from God? lol

      It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

    17. Hey! How did that happen? I must have hit the google account button. I need to take my last name off there. Well, that's me and my wiener dogs, lol.

    18. Laura,

      Now isn't that cute...cuddly dog pictures...that was good.

      The document was a Muslim rebuke.
      It starts off by saying:

      "While we applaud your efforts to oppose the dominance of positivism and materialism in human life, we must point out some errors in the way you mentioned Islam as a counterpoint to the proper use of reason, as well as some mistakes in the assertions you put forward in support of your argument."

      I'm stuck on pt. 2 their explaination of God being transcendent. They simply said that the Pope had rendered "statements which can be misleading", they didn't say he rendered any wrong statements...that was funny.

      Then they took about 4 paragraphs to explain that God's nature is revealed but not himself. (As stated in the article) As they make that claim they are trying to say that their definition is the same as God revealing's like "how close can we come to saying something like God isn't transcendent even though we know he is?"

      They end that discourse by saying that their whole concept of prayer comes from the idea of God's compassionate nature, stating,

      "Is it not self-evident that spilling innocent vblood goes against mercy and compassion?"

      In short God is transcendent not revealing himself, but only his attributes...There remain no comparison to Jesus for Jesus is God in the flesh reconciling the world to himself.

      I've got more on the way.

    19. Like Christianity is perfect--the Bible and Christian doctrine was pieced together over the early centuries with the meeting of seven church councils by whom? Men!
      You have countless Christian denominations all holding to a varying array of beliefs and doctrines.Is God the author of confusion? Look for information about Jesus outside of the Gospels, you will find there is little historical evidence that he ever existed. And please don't cite Josephus and the bogus later entry to his writings.If Jesus did all the Gospels report then why is next to nothing written about Him in secular texts? And you question the Qur'an's validity? As far as violence in the Sacred Text--read Psalm 137--or how 'bout the multiple times God reportedly called for the elimination of every man,woman and child? Christians---examine your faith and its origins!

    20. Anonymous October 27, 2010,

      Please limit your fallacious argumentation to one piece of garbage at a time. A buckshot approach does nothing to further your cause or create real dialogue.

      I guess that would only be good if finding TRUTH were important.

    21. I guess that would only be good if finding TRUTH were important.

      Amen, Pastor Harvey! In the year since I've posted here, I have had countless discussions with non-believers about God, the Bible, Jesus and salvation. And at some time or another, the same question will have to be asked of those asking me questions - "Do you believe there is such a thing as truth. Does 2 plus 2 ever equal anything but 4?"

      I came across this, and I think it sums up the post-modern thinking of today, where no real discussion about God and the Bible takes place except their error as to the origins of scripture (like the post above) and an endless circle of questions about the validaty of scripture and interpretation:

      "In precisely this way literature, by refusing to assign a "secret", an ultimate meaning, to the text (and to the world as text), liberates what may be called an anti-theological activity, an activity that is truly revolutionary since to refuse to fix meaning is, in the end, to refuse God..."
      ~Roland Barthes (atheist)

      Glad to see you are still fighting the good fight.

    22. Laura,

      Great to have you back and glad to see that you are still fighting the good fight also.

      God bless!


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