Wednesday, October 21, 2009

"Hate Crimes" Legislation, Presidential Approval Of The Gay Agenda

This Is What God Says:

Leviticus 18:22-30 ~ 22-THOU SHALT NOT LIE with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. 23-Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it [is] confusion. 24-Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25-And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26- Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations; [neither] any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27-(For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which [were] before you, and the land is defiled;) 28-That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that [were] before you.  29-For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit [them] shall be cut off from among their people. 30- Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that [ye] commit not [any one] of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I [am] the LORD your God.

This Is What The President Obama Says:



"My expectation is that when you  look back on these years, you will see a time in which we put a stop to discrimination against gays and lesbians whether in the office or on the battlefield. You will see a time in which we as a nation finally recognized relationships between two men or two women, are just as real and admirable as relationships between a man and a woman."

On Oct. 10,2009 President Barack Obama said these words to a warm and welcoming cheer from the crowd of about 3,000 at the annual dinner of the Human Rights Campaign, (HRC) a gay rights advocacy group which we have detailed on this site. In fact gay advocate, Harry Knox, current member of the Advisory Council on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships was the former director of the HRC until Presidential appointment in April of this year.

In one of the most shocking parts of the President's speech he single handedly and in one sentence exalted gay and lesbian relationships to "admirability". Not only are the immoral relationships of homosexual unions out of the closet, they have taken center stage and are now touted as being something worth aspiring to. This means that homosexual relationships are, in the minds of many leaders of our country, at least equally as desirable as heterosexual ones. What has happened? This indicates a paradigm shift of morality, from objective values to culturally commensurate and relative values. Plain and simple the winds of CHANGE has shifted from the absolute truth of the God's word to a standard that is both socially and culturally acceptable and ever changing.

On Military Service

"I will end 'don't-ask-don't tell,'"..."We should not be punishing patriotic Americans who have stepped forward to serve the country,"..."We should be celebrating their willingness to step forward and show such courage and selflessness on behalf of their fellow citizens ... especially when we are fighting two wars."...I will end don't-ask-don't tell, that's my commitment to you."

Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell was the tag name of the law was passed by Congress in 1993 and signed by President Bill Clinton. The act prohibits any homosexual or bisexual person from disclosing his or her sexual orientation or from speaking about any homosexual relationships, including marriages or other familial attributes, while serving in the United States armed forces. President Obama said that he's working with Pentagon and congressional leaders on ending the policy so that gays can serve openly in the military without fear of reprisal or discharge.

The question is do the straight men and women that serve in the military mind taking showers with and bunking with individuals who are openly gay? Is there a psychology that comes along with these type of associations that make it difficult for both the straight and homosexual person? Will there be a greater risk on the battlefield for a homosexual than for a straight individual.? Will the homosexual receive preferential treatment in advancements and promotions?

I'll deal with some of these questions in the racism & the struggle for equal rights below.

On Marriage
"And I've called on congress to repeal the so called defense of marriage act and and to pass the domestic partners benefit and obligations act."
The HRC was one of the major advocates for repealing Prop. 8 in California and suffered a black eye at the hand of what they considered to be the "religious right". Since then 7 states plus DC have joined the ranks of legalized gay marriage bringing the total to 9 states plus DC. This is working according to the plans of the gay activist movement and in particularly groups such as Gay And Lesbian Advocate Defenders (GLAD) and Lambda Legal. who have aggressive plans to make homosexual marriages legal across the United States.

With that comes child indoctrination. As homosexual marriages become legal, and because we currently allow a system of federally controlled education, text books and syllabuses must be changed to reflect the laws of the land. This has happened, and will continue to happen as parents find that they have no rights when it comes to protecting their children in the public education setting. I've documented one such case HERE in Massachusetts which is the "gold standard" for homosexual educational rights.

President Obama has further committed and deeply entrenched himself himself into the homosexual agenda. From the Presidential Web site the further plans are open for everyone to view:


"President Obama also continues to support the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and believes that our anti-discrimination employment laws should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity. He supports full civil unions and federal rights for LGBT couples and opposes a constitutional ban on same-sex marriage. He supports repealing Don’t Ask Don’t Tell in a sensible way that strengthens our armed forces and our national security, and also believes that we must ensure adoption rights for all couples and individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation."

Racism & The Struggle For Equal Rights

Is the struggle against racism and for homosexual rights equated? In my opinion absolutely NO. Homosexuality DOES NOT equal the struggle for racial equality although the struggle for social acceptance follows the a similar path.

The critic says that in all of those questions that were asked above, we can simply remove homosexual and insert Black. Those were similar considerations when Blacks were allowed to serve in the proverbial "white man's" army? But is that really the case?

Being Black is certainly nothing that can be changed neither can it be repressed although many try. Black is something that is beyond an individuals choice "to do" and one cannot vacillate between being black and or any other color. In fact once a person IS Black they cannot become any other race or nationality. most say that 1% of blood that is Black is Black forever no matter how bleached it may be.

Similarly to my Grandmother who was 100% Chippewa. By all accounts she looked like a white woman. She married a Black man. When that happened,  her future children, as fair skinned as they would be, were no longer considered Indian (except by the gov't & casino industry) They were considered Black. In fact when my father showed up at the job at General Motors in Detroit, MI., light skinned and as much straight hair as he wanted to have, his skin was yet a half hue darker than white, and immediately my Grandmother, as faithful and good worker as whe was lost her job.

Sexual Choice


You see, all sex is a choice. Although many feel sex is an uncontrollable urge, it's really a choice. Love is also a choice and it is a spiritual venture not meant to be controlled by feelings (as it often is) or emotions (as is the modern standard). Homosexuality is not subject to the constraints of God and is a violation of his word. Plain and simple. It is a sin, along with heterosexual sin, and one must be saved or delivered from sexual sins IF that is one's propensity. I have written about a much argued point on Homosexuality In The New Testament HERE. FYI: God still does not favor homosexuality and it is still a sin.

Be it known, as I have stated clearly before on this blog, no person deserves to be discriminated against in employment, housing or the right to live and pursue freedom because they are homosexual. The reason is because homosexuality is not an illegal activity under the law (at least in most places). Homosexuality has advanced in the American Psychiatric Association (APA) definitions, and was declassified as a mental disorder in 1973. All disciplines soon followed. 

However the doors are open to members and advocates of other so called "sexual minorities" such as pedophiles and the incestuous, who are making the statement and asking the question, "I'm think I'm normal, why not make my sexual lifestyle legal?"

I'm sure that Warren Steed Jeffs is claiming that polygamy and pedophilia have not been give a fair hearing, and that he should not be in jail, not only because he's God's messenger, but also because he's simply a "sexual minority". Then there's movie mogul Roman Polanski who certainly feels unfairly treated especially since the young lady he sexually assaulted 10 years ago was 13 years old. He knows that the legal age of sexual consent in the Netherlands is 12, (see note below) and that America is just plain ole unfair.

Conclusion:

President Obama ended his speech by saying,
"Thank you for the work you're doing, God bless you, God bless America!"
The reality is how can we ask God to bless us when we endorse something contrary to his nature, his will and his word? How can that be blessed of God?

God has spoke and the President has spoken. Who's words will you follow and believe?

For me I'll conclude by saying this:

Joshua 24:15 ~ "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, we will serve the LORD."

Blessed!

Should We Be Alarmed About Hate Crimes Legislation?
Read HERE and then read HERE.

Note:
The Netherlands has no sodomy laws, the age of sexual consent is 16 for all, sex between an adult and a young person between the ages of 12 and 16 is permitted by law, as long as the young person consents. It may only be prosecuted by complaint from the young person or the young person’s parents. The question remains whether the public prosecutions department would proceed to prosecute if the young person themself had consented and their parents filed the complaint.

49 comments:

  1. Barak Obama is turning out to be one of the worst president's this nation has ever known! I was hoping that Barak would do the right thing and he is not. Barak Obama is also a spineless, flip-flopping, wicked leader. He will go down in history as one who has done wickedly and evil in the sight of the Lord!

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  2. Are you serious? In the netherlands, sexual consent is at 14 years old--wow, this is where America is heading?

    Hey, Obama is the will of God; he was meant to be president. He's God's judgment for a nation who loves sin, hates Christ, worships money, and murders babies. Just as Nebuchadnezzar was God's judgment for Israel...so stay tuned...it will only get worse

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  3. DSHB,

    It is curious that you defend that one and one only commandment in Leviticus and no other.
    What about all the commandments in Leviticus that you don't obey?

    Cherry pick much?

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  4. DSHB,

    "However the doors are open to members and advocates of other so called "sexual minorities" such as pedophiles and the incestuous,...."

    That's the slippery slope argument. There is no indication that this argument has any veracity or merit. This is merely alarmist rhetoric. Stick to the facts.

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  5. Froggie,

    Since you just like to argue...pick a commandment or something in Lev. (since you say we don't follow the laws) and present it and let's see what "cherry picking" is really all about.

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  6. DSHB,

    "Froggie,

    Since you just like to argue... ((as if you do not constantly argue with scientists that are far more knowledgable than you)) pick a commandment or something in Lev. (since you say we don't follow the laws) and present it and let's see what "cherry picking" is really all about.

    Just for starters let's define something.

    Leviticus 17 through 26, where you get your prohibiton of homosexuality, also includes death for children that insult their parents (Leviticus 20.)

    Are you recommending we follow that commandment?

    Leviticus 17 through 26 are obviously laws based on superstitions of the day. Many bible scholars refer to them as "The Holiness Laws."
    The prohibition of gay relationships does not even extend to women, it is specifically directed toward men.

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  7. Froggie,

    You said:Leviticus 17 through 26, where you get your prohibiton of homosexuality, also includes death for children that insult their parents (Leviticus 20)...Are you recommending we follow that commandment?

    OK let's look at the verse Frogman:

    Lev. 20:9 ~"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him."

    You think that is a problem and if we believe that homosexuality is wrong according to Leviticus then we should also believe in killing children who "curse" us.

    First of all I'll start off by pronouncing a FUNDY ALERT!!! for all interested readers:

    You THINK, "cursing the father and mother" means that a child stands up(or sits down for that matter) and pronounces curse words at their parents and therefore the bible says they should be killed for it.

    First, that's not even CLOSE to what the scripture was talking about...Look at the word curse:

    The form of the word is a Piel participle from קָלַל (qalal), meaning in Qal “be light,” in Piel “treat lightly, curse, revile, declare contemptible, treat shamefully.” (See its use in Lev 19:14; Josh 24:9; Judg 9:26-28; 1 Sam 3:13; 17:43; 2 Sam 16:5-13; Prov 30:10-11; Eccl 7:21-22; 10:20.) It is opposite of “honor” (כָּבֵד, kaved; Qal “be heavy”; Piel “honor,” as in 20:12) and of “bless.”

    This verse then could refer to any act contrary to the commandment to honor the parents. Example is B. Jacob (Exodus, 640) cites parallels in Sumerian where people were severely punished for publicly disowning their parents. “

    "Lev. 21:15, 17 taken together evoke the picture of parents who, physically and verbally, are forcibly turned out of the house (cf. Prov. 19:26)” (C. Houtman, Exodus, 3:148).

    In a deeper context...the scripture in Leviticus is dealing with a sense of false worship and service towards other gods. Molech is introduced in v3 and it's basically set up saying how a parent can curse their family by giving them to false worship. In that case the penalty would be death v.5...Additionally there are other things in the same scripture that deserve death:

    1-Adultery, 2-parental child incest, 3-homosexuality, 4-bestiality, 5-sibling incest, and 5-menstrual cycle relations.

    So far as the child concerned in v.9, the same sentiments are repeated by Jesus in the NT in both Mt. 15:4 and Mk. 7:11...in both instances Jesus condemned the Pharisees for teaching the people to turn their heads to false worship of the children when they were being financially benefited...calling what was given to idols "corban" or a "gift"...This means that they were saying that what was evil according to the commandment of God, was somehow good as long as it paid the bills.

    This was the ultimate CURSE upon the parents and the family...false worship, idolatry and all the evils that came along with it being called good.

    So in the verse we see from OT to NT a clear condemnation of false worship, dishonor, disrespect in the sense of calling evil good and all immorality that weakens nations, disrespects and dishonors the family and causes parents not only bad feelings but a total mental and physical harm and degradation.

    see 2

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  8. 2

    Froggie,

    GOd said these things were worthy of death. So since this nation (America) does the same now, why aren't these dead both young and old?

    Ephesians 2:8~For by GRACE ARE YE saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

    Through faith in who? Christ Jesus alone!

    So why not kill the children that do all of these evil and degrading things to their parents? To begin with because we're living under grace and under that grace we have a greater command for mercy as I've indicated, secondly because Jesus fulfilled the penalty of the law for sin...

    Romans 8:3~For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and FOR SIN, condemned sin in the flesh:

    Now, back to the original critique and accusation leveled by you...

    How does this relate to a homosexual and homosexuality?...1- They were also condemned to the same death as I point out...So who's killing homosexuals today? Not the church. ONLY criminals both religious and nonreligious.

    So to be FAIR, as you obviously are not, the church by teaching against the practice is doing EXACTLY what it should do as it ALSO teaches children to OBEY RESPECT and HONOR their parents etc...just as Leviticus states...

    So what's the problem?

    Just a MADE UP ONE by people who only use the bible to condemn it...

    So when we look at it in full context...WHO'S THE REAL CHERRYPICKER?

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  9. Pastor Burnett, I served 10 years active duty in the Army including service in two armed conflicts. For seven of those ten years, I was homosexual. And I served BEFORE dont ask, dont tell. Then, it was "find out, go to jail."

    I knew plenty of other homosexuals in service too. And for as much as I can remember they all were great soldiers. So was I.

    But here's the thing. Not one person I ever knew or talked ever talked about wanting to be openly gay in service. In fact secrecy was a badge of honor for us. It took wits and discipline to maintain, if you understand. Sure, maybe it could be argued that it was an idea before its time, but not necessarily.

    We loved being soldiers, not different soldiers, just soldiers. What we did behind closed doors or on our own time was no different than any other person in the military. I experienced "shower" incidences where I knew a guy (I presumed to be heterosexual) was attempting to connect with me, not the other way around. But I didnt do cheap stuff like that. Why? because I wanted and enjoyed being a soldier and didnt want that to destroy my career.

    Some of my army buddies knew I was gay because they asked and I told them.

    I dont have a problem with homosexuals serving in the military, no more than I have a problem with atheists serving. Because truthfully, they always have. A person who will voluntarily put their life on the line for this country gets my respect in that regard.

    But I see this push to make the military allow openly homosexual people is a dangerous exercise. Its born out of a need to legitimize homosexuality, not to stop gay people from serving in the military.

    There are people who do all sorts of things wrong in the military, but they pretty much keep it to themselves and soldier hard when the lights are on.

    But just like in the civilian culture,the gays want no equality but domination.

    Thats dangerous for everybody.

    Thanks for letting me be honest.

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  10. Well, Pastor...the world's going to hell in a handbasket on so many fronts. It's all happening so fast, it's like you have to choose your battles.

    InChrist said it's God's judgment on us - but what about the half of us that aren't whackos and love our country and freedom? God was going to save Sodom for 10 righteous men. So I gotta believe there's more to this than gettin' what's comin' to us.

    I'm a firm believer that these are the last days, and I think a person would have to have their head in the sand not to see it. And so when I start getting a bit detached, I have to wonder, is that such a bad thing? We are in the world, not of the world.

    My bud Paul (Saul) had much to say about homosexuals (that's the NEW Testament, Froggie), and it reads like todays newspaper. He starts his first letter ever with this opening line:

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

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  11. (continuing, I'll add my remarks in italics)

    "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Obama, the government, about 50% or more of our churches, some scientists, some teachers, etc) because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (yep)

    because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man (neanderthal man) —and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things (darwin, the fossil record).

    Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie (evolution), and worshiped and served the creature (earth) rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

    And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness;

    they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;

    who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.(Obama speech)
    ~Romans 1:16-32

    So what does Paul say to all this, other than alluding to their punishment to come?

    "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things."
    ~Romans 2:1-2

    So we are in a catch 22 here, aren't we? It's not like we can sail away to a new land. And the damage is being done so fast that I'm afraid to think of what this country will look like in 3 more years.

    But what did God do when Sodom was fixin' to go down? He got Lot and family out of there. Seriously - I'm looking for Jesus and the rapture. He said it would happen sooner than we think.

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  12. I meant to say "those of us who love GOD, country and freedom.

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  13. Froggie,

    YOU'RE an IDIOT!

    I have no tolerance for you and your LOONEY and INSANE rantings. I think you're on block and deletion from here on.

    With STUPID comments like this:"The "gay" agenda is no different than the "black" agenda, or the hispanic agenda, or the atheist agenda, and that is equal treatment."

    All I can say is any IDIOT who relates the color of skin to a sexual CHOICE is not only and IDIOT but TOTALLY NUTS...

    You're DONE...C-YA!

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  14. The only bad thing about blogging is IDIOTS like Froggie

    I think he's Dennis Collins in one of his many deceitful and LYING personalities.

    You can tell because IDIOTS like that NEVER provide any support for their comments or arguments, treat everyone as intellectually inferior, even though THEY suffer from the intellectual deficit...In fact I'm SURPRISED that IDIOTS like that even know how to use a computer, yet alone own one...totally STUPID.

    These sort of IDIOTS just make statements, say whatever DUMB thing comes to mind...STUPID as a box of ordinary rocks on sale at a lemonade stand.

    He's out...Thanks for the patience of those who can add to this conversation.

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  15. Froggie,

    Neither YOU or your IDIOT friends or aliuses are welcome...

    C-ya later--BYE-BYE!

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  16. You see one problem with unbelief, is that they THINK all things are only about relative relationships...

    In their world there is no ABSOLUTE truth. There is no absolute wrong or right, only perceptions of what one thinks is right. The bible says however:

    Psalms 15:4~In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. [He that] SWEAReth to [his own] hurt, and changeth not.

    This indicates many things and amongst them the ability of the SAINT to believe in and uphold a standard fo RIGHT no matter who is effected...That's the problem with society in general, everyone wants their little piece of relative morality, when it comes to their issue. They believe, "well if that happened to you, you would think differently"...Yea right, as if it hasn't ever happened to anyone before who wasn't afraid to stand for God and make a difference.

    So worldly morality can be debated, but STUPIDITY isn't stood for.

    God's standards are right and people that follow them are blessed. Aids, though disproportionately high among African American females is still a disease running rampant through the homosexual community and that came from that community.

    That's just one problem with gaydom, not to mention how in the word will mankind continue to grow if not for male/female unions?

    Radical idiots such as Froggie and his friends probably want us to believe that "science" will help humanity continue...what a FARCE!

    Science hasn't produced a cure for Aids in over 20 years and continues to find more everyday that it doesn't know...heck it can't contain the swine flu...so our trust and instructions certainly don't come from science.

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  17. FYI,

    I don't mind contrary OPINIONS...I simply hate contrary IDIOCY...

    If you have an OPINION address the audience RESPECTFULLY and actually lay out a logical argument instead fo simply saying what comes to mind...any BAFOON can do that as we see with Froggie's and Whatever's comments...

    evangelizng for your god is ok as long as you're reasonable and at least pretend to have a grade school education...other than that...

    These nuts always pull out that card, as if nobody has ever heard there stale, lame and refuted arguments. As if hearing them say them will somehow "shake" our faith...THEY ARE NUTS!

    That's the arrogance of atheism and especially this new home spun brand of it, they think noone has ever thought of their stupid insights until they get a computer and arrive on the scene, people in history thought RINGS around these clowns hundreds of years ago. And their arguments were refuted too just like these pretenders...

    HIT THE ROAD JACK!

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  18. Both whatever and froggie are a mess...Whatever states he only knows Froggie form a certain atheistic web site, I guess that was AFTER he removed his name as a team member from his blog...

    He regularly writes with and for that clown. The lengths that IDIOTS like this will go to is amazing!

    call Christian morals into question when they have ABSOLUTELY NONE!

    Tell me there isn't a difference between clean and unclean, sinnser do what they do by nature, lie, cheat, steal, even pretend that they don't know each other, to further INFECT the world with their GARBAGE.

    It's FUN to watch idiots like this crash and burn...by the way Christianity IS a SUPERIOR worldview, it has proven itsef to be so over the ages...atheism was developed 400 PRIOR to Christianity and as a worldview is unaccepted by most rationally thinking individuals. The most smart unbelievers claim agnosticism which is a much more intellectually superior claim than atheism (although it's still worng)

    Anyway, sorry for the interruption to all. You give charlatans a chance and you get burned...

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  19. PS,

    I don't have time to babysit IDIOTS. Thank ya very much...

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  20. This other idiot named Whateverman offered an excuse about his immediate espongement of his profile: This is what his excuse is:

    Whateverman has left a new comment on your post ""Hate Crimes" Legislation, Presidential Approval O...":

    I provided the IDIOT website because that's where I'm currently active. The Raytractor's site is old and no longer active - and I couldn't figure out how to get Blogger to recognize it...IOW, my profile needs to be updated...

    Now IF it wern't for the fact that he said this too:

    "I'm not Froggie, actually (though I do know him through the (GARBAGE WEB SITE)

    (emphasis mine)

    But what he doesn't mention is that Froggie was a contributor along with him at his old site that he refers to, so these garbage regurgitators have known each other for quite some time.

    Then he states this:

    Please tho, I'm curious to hear how you can advocate that your objective standards of morality are to be adhered to literally in one case, and ignored in the other.

    That's what I mean by IDIOCY. Just to the left of the message box I posted 2 entries on that issue. addressing it SPECIFICALLY...They CAN'T READ EITHER!

    Tell me this how can we expect to be enlightened by people who can't even read when that's all this forum is about?

    That's what I'm talkin about...

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  21. Pastor Burnett, once an idiot opens his mouth, the conversation is all but lost. My suggestion is to give them a 1 shot chance before banning. They intimidate other commenters with their idiocy, thus derailing honest and vigorous discussion.

    thanks!

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  22. Pastor, I gotta agree with you. It's one thing to debate these matters with someone who has read the Bible or done their homework, or, like gmcwatch, has personal experience.

    It's quite another thing to hold a discussion with time-wasters who get their talking points from silly "stump the christian" websites. They sound as unlearned as our president did when he quoted Leviticus in his "we are not a Christian nation" speech.

    So you patiently explain the error in their biblical thinking, and they

    1. act like they didn't hear you, because if they did, they wouldn't say the next thing they say.

    2. add nothing new to the discussion, but continue to insist their point was right.

    It does get old.

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  23. Gcmwatch,

    I try to be nice open up for debate. Most of these guys are good, like Gandy, Scott, Dave and a few others, but then the others allow their SIN natures to take over full scale...

    Then they have the "nerve" to try to say that their morality is on parr with Christian morality...They can't even respect a bolg in the blogosphere...Those are the types that make the best arguments for evolution, because they act like animals-LOL!

    Look, with all the problems that the Christian church faces both from within and without, I'd rather spend a day dealing with that than an infinite amount of time in sin and shame.

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  24. Laura,

    On point my friend...Like I said, I'm not paintin' all of them like these IDIOTS, because I actually like to engage with alternate ideas and concepts even if it gets heated but these are ridiculous imitators.

    They want to imitate scholarship and know NOTHING about any issue. Especially these kind of issues.

    In their world, someone who breaks into their homes and kills family members shouldn't be punished too severely because they may have had a "genetic" incapacity or disadvantage.

    They are LIARS with no basis for truth. In fact they can't even define truth, truth is what they make it out to be...totally nonobjective.

    Someone says, "Why is Jesus coming back as Judge?" It for rebellious, stubborn and stony hearted idiots like that...people who hear the truth and reject it, fail to com to any understanding, always crying like a baby trying to make an excuse for their stupidity.

    Can they change? Yes, but they've got to want change and they are so blinded by FLESH and the enemy, their appointment with destruction is certain.

    now, I've lived long enough and debated some of these characters long enough to see circumstances change for some of them. I've had convo's with atheists much better than any of these cats, and every one, has a sense of respect for both me, this blog and my work.

    They do what they do but yet I even respect them certainly as human beings and some even friends, but ramblers like these are radical, home grown wanna be's, twisted by hate and rage against what is right.

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  25. Pastor, gmcwatch made a great point about how they stifle debate and conversation from lurkers. I'll keep that in mind for myself too when I get too rambunctious. Your blog didn't just "happen", it takes time, thought and effort, and I respect that.

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  26. Post ..1

    District Supt. Harvey Burnett said... "Those are the types that make the best arguments for evolution, because they act like animals-LOL!"

    Yes well i guess i`ll really have to admit,i can definatly be a cheeky wee monkey quite often :(

    But hey supposedly the gods kill your old man aged 38 with cancer,when he never even smoked never drank worked hard loved his kids loved god went to church (every single day) of his life.etc etc etc

    Left me aged 18months with a mum and 5 others kids all 10+ older than i.

    Fine Religious folks around always only run us down for all our imperfections and nothing much we seemed to do seemed worth much in their books,and they made stupid rules that made everyone else dislike us only making matters much much worse.

    Folks and family all around us were splitting and dividing and some even ending their lives.

    Guess maybe i should have become the wonderful serrious type,but ahh life seemed kinda like a jungle to me where the top cats always slam dunked those under them anyway. And so being a wee monkey and trying to always see the funny side of life if you could, sort of felt like it kinda helped out a little...L.o.L

    Hey you questioned where our morals might ever fall out of the sky from, you said...."In their world, someone who breaks into their homes and kills family members shouldn't be punished too severely because they may have had a "genetic" incapacity or disadvantage.

    They are LIARS with no basis for truth. In fact they can't even define truth, truth is what they make it out to be...totally nonobjective."

    Harvey you have called us simply liars, nailing all us non believers to the analogical christian cross in the process but what choice is there really?.

    We could choose to totally hate and become hell bent on revenge ask for the death penalty,will that bring back the family member killed? ...Will killing the killer make me any better?.Will his/her death finish and completely remove my hatred and dislike of losing a family member now gone? ...Will i then and only then cease from letting myself be eaten away from anger and hate?.

    And was it the society i was also part of and involved in the making of along with my forefathers too as well,somehow partly to do with all the whys and hows etc certain folks do become killers! while many other folks dont seem to quite the same?

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  27. post 2

    See thats what i keep trying to explain to you Harvey,even though i feel your faith beliefs make you often mean and nasty and yes i will say quite thoughtless(forgive me for simply being honest)what good does it do me to allow myself to PERSONALLY FEEL HATE FOR YOU for to long?....Will it save me wrinkles and frown lines?..or will it just tend to give me them all the more.

    So while i often read your blog and remember those very same bosses of the church i once came from, who even then seemed to be drunken on power and control and set in selfrightiousness nastiness and faithful bigotry.

    I dont allow myself to lay the blame on you personally...Because i know that it goes far far deaper than that,and blaming you personally would be as wrong as you blaming Froggie or who ever else.And i know that you like the killer are just another type of product of the many situations of society and our many different lives around us.So though you and even i do wrong and that is not so easy to excuse,its better to learn how to (understand it) so we can then hopefully learn to make the changes needed.

    Now you might decide to delete this cheeky wee monkeys post too,i just want to add i wont let it give me too many more monkey frowns and wrinkles if you decide too.I will simply leave the wrinkles and frown line for you to worry about.

    I have plenty of work to do elsewhere too.You yourself are supposedly a minister of some god, while im ministering kindness and hope of monkey humanity to others like me who have been abused by faithful religion.As well as combining with those who work to see it all stop and finish,so we can have hope that some more and more humane lil wee monkeys can slowly return to this here earth.

    Its just simple monkey business as usual see Harv :)

    Hey how does that banana fit in a human monkeys hand??,do ya reckon ol Ray Comfort might even give my ideas a slim chance

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  28. Gandy,

    You do have issues and I wonder what does any of your experience have to do with what we're talking about...I mean if you have an atheist's world view, then what does what you've experienced mean? What does your father dying at your early age mean? It means NOTHING.

    I'm sorry to be blunt but too many atheists try to take jabs at GOd while at the same time they say he doesn't exist...I know what my suffering means and I have confidence in what it does for me:

    Romans 8:18~For I reckon that the SUFFERINGS OF THIS present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

    Death, life, sickness and health EVERYTHING I go through has value to it. I don't have to know what that value is but I know in whom I trust...

    Psalms 125:1~THEY THAT TRUST in the LORD [shall be] as mount Zion, [which] cannot be removed, [but] abideth for ever.

    So the only thing YOU display with "blame God' stories is that you 1 either BELIEVE IN HIM and are simply frustrated because you don't understand him, or 2- you're just throwing whatever complaint you can up hoping that someone will have some sympathy for you...well you haven't asked me for any and I gives ya none.

    Then you said concerning capital punishment:We could choose to totally hate and become hell bent on revenge ask for the death penalty,will that bring back the family member killed?

    Absolutely not, but it establishes a standard of justice not seeking to punish the surviving victims. It places perspective and let's offenders know that there is a cost and a penalty and that life is precious. Are you a "bleeding heart" with a backward sense of right and wrong too? I can tell it, at least until it's your family member huh?

    Then you said:See that's what i keep trying to explain to you Harvey,even though i feel your faith beliefs make you often mean and nasty and yes i will say quite thoughtless(forgive me for simply being honest)

    No my friend, the problem is your TWISTED sense of morality and right and wrong...you reward the fake, crook and perpetrator of evil assuming you're being loving. A reward for evil is never good, all it does is foster more evil. So whatever evil you see in me is ALREADY glaringly staring you in the face and it's called SIN!

    see 2

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  29. 2

    Gandy,

    You said:what good does it do me to allow myself to PERSONALLY FEEL HATE FOR YOU for to long?

    Thus ANOTHER glaring difference between the sinner and the saint...I have NEVER felt hate or dislike for you and you've said many silly things as you persist, but I know the illness and it's called sin and evil heart, that makes you flip flop and follow feelings...My call is greater my friend. I'll debate rigorously, but hatred NEVER. I may hate some actions, but never the person.

    You said:"So while i often read your blog and remember those very same bosses of the church i once came from, who even then seemed to be drunken on power and control and set in self righteousness nastiness and faithful bigotry.

    See don't forget I had a god called sin, self and flesh too...that was the bigot I served JUST LIEK YOU do now...The ONLY divider you have in your life is the ultimate divider between you and God and that's SIN AND UNBELIEF. You only hurt yourself with that garbage...your position isn't unique...I've been where you are and then some, in fact I was better at it than you, I wasn't trying to hang around church people when I wasn't saved, i was all about doing it my way...all of you that hang on to every word Christians say and get mad are PRETENDERS...people afraid to die and not fit to live.

    Make a decision in life for yourself for a change. Be a MAN. Every post you make is about what the "establishment" did to you, how "they" divided you from your family etc...NOBODY done worse damage to you than YOU! Stand on your own two feet and stand before God openly and honestly for a change instead of crying about how bad the church or supposed church people treat you. I'll bet they did none of the things you accuse them of...it's people like you that tend to create memories and live in denial of facts or a created reality...I learned my independence at an early age so I have no sympathy for you...

    You said:"And i know that you like the killer are just another type of product of the many situations of society and our many different lives around us.

    What you are is the product of sin and evil...and that's the TRUTH Ruth!

    Look at this clown:You yourself are supposedly a minister of some god, while I'm ministering kindness and hope of monkey humanity to others like me who have been abused by faithful religion.

    The atheist knows NOTHING about God but isn't it funny how he always knows what and how God's people should look and act...talking about a mote and beam...GOt a whole forest in his eye and has the NERVE to try to criticize...pleasssse! Get a life mookie!

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  30. Gandy, I feel for you and the pain you have gone through in life. Until Jesus comes, the devil will continue his assault on the people of this world, and at times that assault can come from those who pretend religion, or even in the name of religion, but that's not Jesus.

    I know that I know that I know that Jesus is Lord, and stepped down from heaven to reconcile us with Him, because He loves each of us personally and individually. I suppose that's why these discussions are so easy for christians - we already know the truthful answer, or we should all be in the looney bin for having a real, tangible relationship with a figment of our imagination.

    Religion is not Jesus. Jesus' strongest words were against the religious, and a running rebuke of them during His ministry on earth. Take a look at the "Woes" in Matthew 23 for an example.

    You are carrying a burden and you have it in your mind that that's just the way it is and if you can keep smiling, then you are doing pretty good. Jesus said "Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

    You're angry with Pastor Harvey because he's not acting like you think he should act. Mere humans will always disappoint us, given enough time, at one time or another. Seek the One who is perfect and Holy, who promised those who believe "I will never leave you or forsake you".

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  31. Laura,

    If people had a reasonable expectation, they would have a case, and individuals are like me, they weren't born last night.

    What we have are excuses being leveled at the church for a personal experience. But we have this from a person who neither believes in God nor religion, assuming that his experience with religion has been so messed up that now he has some sort of "built in" pass on doing right and observing the same rule of right.

    That's not so. Neither is his problem religion. In fact don't allow charlatans and complainers lock you into the concept that "religion" is wrong because it's not:

    James 1:27~Pure RELIGION and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

    What Jesus condemned was "tradition" of men and carnal understandings of his word that kept individuals from doing right and even encouraged wrong:

    Mark 7:6-8 ~6-He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me. 7-Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.8-For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do."

    So the problem Jesus had wasn't "religion" it was flesh and carnality, excuse and unrighteousness, given a religious name.

    Remember Jesus came to establish the church and the church is precious:

    Ephes. 5:25-27~"25-Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26-That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,27-That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

    Now the trend is that modern day people avoid the institution, but that's on them too and they'll have to answer to God for that given their ability. No matter what though a person has a greater obligation to God.

    Now Gandy's sentiments have been addressed over and over, I would like to see him simply make an on point or topic argument on the subject instead of trying to tee off at the church at every opportunity. religion isn't his problem neither are religious leaders...his problem is being blind and trapped in SIN, like all of us used to be!

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  32. Hi Pastor Harvey. Sometimes, in trying to be brief, I don't make myself clear. By no means was I saying all religion is bad or wrong.

    When I said "the devil will continue his assault on the people of this world, and at times that assault can come from those who pretend religion, or even in the name of religion, but that's not Jesus", I was visualizing two types, those that say they have God but don't, and the world's largest christian faith, the one leaning heavily on tradition.

    Perhaps I have a bias towards that particular religion, but it comes from walking in the wake of it's damage and even destruction that I see when visiting atheists and agnostics on their home truf.

    I don't have a problem with condemning false teachers and exposing them, but with that one, I'm not comfortable speaking out against those that hold the communion so dear. Would you agree with me that Jesus would have some choice words for them?

    We ARE the Church, the Body of Christ, and we are in most christian religions. But the religion itself is not the Church, but the place of assembly. True?

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  33. Laura,

    You said:I don't have a problem with condemning false teachers and exposing them, but with that one, I'm not comfortable speaking out against those that hold the communion so dear. Would you agree with me that Jesus would have some choice words for them?

    ABSOLUTELY and without doubt. We're on the same page.

    I was just clearing up the fact that Gandolf, froggie or whoever and whatever will have no excuse in that day...won't be able to blame the church or anyone for their existence and a fist won't be shaken in the face of GOd.

    So we're good...

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  34. Pastor, I look forward to the day when you realize just how much you're in love with your sin, and that you turned into the thing you thought to preach against.

    Good luck to you - you're going to need it.

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  35. Now the trend is that modern day people avoid the institution

    I found out this week that a good friend of mine is entangled with the Manifest Sons of God bunch. She was always legalistic, so I guess this should come as no surprise that she was so easily decieved. It's going to take a lot of time and effort to point her back to Jesus, but that's what the Church does. We are His hands and feet.

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  36. Pastor Harvey, I have been gleaning your blog and have been blessed for real!

    Great article, I have passed this on to many of those who were sending me pretty family pictures of Pres. Obama! I am sure I will not get anymore pictures, ha ha!

    Grandolf, if you the church you used to attend lined up every memeber and they each took a turn and spat in your face it would not have changed the fact that Christ died for your sins, you are responsible for the knowledge you have and will be judged accordingly. You see its Christ who save and not mere man. If you were the only person to recieve Christ as LORD and Savior, He would not have died in vain.

    I was not accepted in the Church I got saved in and was ultimately kicked out over a blatant lie! I am not totally guilt free but the facts remain.

    Your issue is Gods truth coming against your sin, its uncomfortable for all.

    Blessings!

    Paul

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  37. It's amazing, that topics like homosexuality are so emotionally charged becuae the unsaved believe their way of morality is superior.

    Look theirs changes with the wind and is based on societal standards. Totally unobjective.

    Wjy don't they also fight for the rights of these pedophiles to have sex with children? Why don't they undertake the rights of bigamists to have multiple wives? Why don't they go to AZ (or wherever he is) and fight for Rev. Jeffs that I mentioned on the front page?

    If their morality is so grand as they claim why are the homosexuals singled out as a sexually preferred group for them to fight for?

    They are unbalanced in their reasoning process and it shows greatly.

    The fact of the matter is that homosexuality is not only damaging to the homosexuals it's damaging to society in general. Biblically it was a practice (like adultery and other heterosexual sin)that was punishable by death. These radicals say "Leviticus says don't weat shrimp so why don't you stop eating shrimp too?"

    First shrimp eating wasn't punuishable by death and secondly Mt. 15:11 and Mark 7:18 Jesus who FILFILLED the Law said that what went into the mouth is not what defiles us, but what comes out of it because those are the things that indicate the issues of the heart. They they have NO CONCEPT about why Jesus came in the first place which was to FULFILL and complete the Law for righteousness.

    A totally different set of circumstances. President Obama even rendered that one about shrimp himself as a reason that we shouldn't obey the bible...that's STUPID and as a rock wearing sun glasses.

    Most of the critics make the same kindergarten 101 type assertions and think they are "stumpping" bible readers because THEY don't know how to interpret the bible themselves or even know what the bible says...

    So it's always interesting to see the type of lunacy that this sort of topic yields from the morally superior relativistic crowd.

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  38. Now,

    Look at it. The only HATERS are the one's who don't like hearing truth that offends them and their warped sense of morality.

    They haen't heard the preachers mission. It's summarized like this:

    Isaiah 58:1~CRY ALOUD, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

    Then there's Jeremiah's mission that is vicarious to pastoral leaders today:

    Jeremiah 1:10~See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to THROW DOWN, to build, and to plant.

    Homosexuality is a SIN like any other. Who told you that they way you like to have sex translates to a favored status in ANYTHING?

    I think I should receive favored status for the way I like to have sex and who I like to have sex with, so why am I not being advocated for? Why aren't these moral relativists undertaking my cause?

    Whateveman, as long as you can be REASONABLE, stay on point and not reder silly questions, I'll allow your commentary....

    We've already addressed you twisted sense of morality and the relationship of Leviticus to NT worship, this isn't a bible study for you to ask a million questions. If you need help catch a plane and come to church I'll hep you personally after you receive the word and anointed prayer, along with your friends too. But anythng STUPID will be deleted.

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  39. Paul,

    Thank you and EXCELLENT advice. Many of these want to force their way into the church and just correct eveything they see, without realizing that the FIRST correction should be them.

    I had an atheist render the argument, "why doesn't God eliminate sin if he's so powerful?"...the fact is if he did he'd start with him first...cause we are sinners and all have sinned. We don't have a stone to throw at God like we have some superior intellect...You want God to deal with an issue and really give the justice we deserve, he'll leave a bunch of human spots in his wake. God owes us nothing. Grace can't be owed nor earned.

    That's why I thank God for Jesus and what he means to US. That's where the mercy upon our lives flows from, not in some back and forth anger/love/hate relationship with the church and people of God. That's instability of the mind and heart and a complete travesty.

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  40. My posts are being let through now? I don't entirely understand why they were being deleted in the first place. I didn't insult you or your beliefs; I was polite. I merely wanted an answer to my question (which I don't believe you actually answered).

    However - this is your blog, and I'll do my best to adhere to them.

    On the subject of gay rights (ie. a loose generalization of the topic you wrote about), I believe President Obama contradicts the Bible as much as astronauts do. To wit: the earth isn't flat nor is it the center of the universe.

    That is to say, Obama's contradiction of Leviticus doesn't seem to be overly important. I can understand why the general topic is so heated - homosexuality is personally/deeply offensive to some people (whereas a spherical Earth is not). With that said, homosexuality has been around for a *long* time - I don't see the presidents speech as being indicative of a trend (aka. the lowering of standards or a turning away from God's rules per the Bible.

    Can you explain to me, pastor, why Obama's speech is any more important/noteworthy than any other person's opinion about homosexuality? Help me understand why you're focusing on him...

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  41. Whaterverman,

    You said:"My posts are being let through now? I don't entirely understand why they were being deleted in the first place."

    Because of your initial insults, repetitions of answered questions and association and deception regarding that association with a known idiot.

    You said:I didn't insult you or your beliefs; I was polite.

    Not hardly, I did save the email and they were very condescing as radicals usually do when they want to make some great social point and self-exalted statements against Christianity.

    You saidI merely wanted an answer to my question (which I don't believe you actually answered).

    Your questions were answered BEFORE you made any comments as I had addressed them with your friend. If you don't understand the answer simply say that, but to go on with other silly questions based on the same premise means that you either didn't care about the initial answer or didn't read the initial answer, either way that indicates just a desire to spread your views and this is not the place for that...we've been where you are, in SIN, and your disdain for the church is of no concern for us...we all hated God to some degree in our mess...you're in yours so that's nothing new. I'm simply not tolerating people trying ot attempting to bully the board. You're not the first and you won't be the last...so don't take it any more personally than necessary.

    Now, to the question you pose which is a good one and I'll ask others to provide their input also regarding it.

    You said:Can you explain to me, pastor, why Obama's speech is any more important/noteworthy than any other person's opinion about homosexuality? Help me understand why you're focusing on him...

    Partially because he is the President and what he says carries a lot of weight. (much more than what I say) He is endorsing a lifestyle that has proven to be harmful and inconsistent with not only biblical values but also societal values. He is not simply protecting people which would be a good thing by itself, but he is dealing with life structures and on top of that superimposing the worst type of biblical interpretation in support of his views.

    Like I said this isn't because "the bible told me so" and even IF it was that would be sufficient enough as the bible sets forth a good and objective moral standard for humanity, and there is no repression of religion in our country (at least presently) therefore I have not only and imperative to speak from my set of beliefs, but a right to do. (I know that's more than what you asked but I know that's what you want to address anyway)

    Another thing is that this President is consistently aligning himself with the gay agenda. This means changing the standards of social morality all the way through the system. Look at it. They (gov't) hold the educational system. the NEA has already aligned with GSLEN and other gay rights organizations, what's next? the further erosion of parental rights and the complete indoctrination of our children...you don't believe me ask Dr. David Parker,
    he found that out after finding himself in jail some years ago.

    The Christian view of this issue is much more well rounded than the critic realizes. Most of you think we only base our actions on a bible verse or two. Although one can do that and be successful, and blessed, there's a LOT more to the issue than meets the eye.

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  42. "Many of these want to force their way into the church and just correct eveything they see, without realizing that the FIRST correction should be them."

    Pastor I was thinking the same thing, the easy way out is to give up isnt it? If you know how the Church should behave be the example.


    I also agree that God owes us nothing but He has done so much hasnt He, how gracious is our Father!

    Whateverman, I ask you, if group want to have sex with animals should they be advocated for? Please dont think I am over the top because someone told me he sees absolutely nothing wrong with it.

    You say "like" I am sure you are aware that people "like" to have sex with children, they "like" to kill, yes they actually "like" it. Like has nothing to do with it, right and wrong does, according to God and not you, me or Pres Obama. If we all did what we "like" can you imagine what this world would be like.

    You know I have asked pro homosexual people, why is murder wrong and they talk about pain and hurt and against someone will, well by what standard are those things wrong? you see there must be a "STANDARD" and it cannot start with man as we wil always do what is right in our own eyes (Judges 17:6).

    Another question I have is about gay rights, when you have fullgay rights, what do I do about my Children? How do I protect them from being indoctrinated or even having to see this as norm. Please tell me what to do because I dont want my children to be confused and its obvious that this current administration is ardent about this. Where are my rights to raise my Children morally and have them taught morals in school?

    Paul

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  43. Ahh i see if i post on your blog it means im just simply angry at Harvey or his god.

    So when Harvey used to often post on John Loftus blog it was because he was just simply angry at john loftus and atheism.

    I have had a reasonably happy life my own family with two kids,worked and paid for a property of 283hectares.

    If i mention some of my past im just simply having a grump,i should instead be clapping my hands for joy also about stuff to do with religion.

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  44. Gandy,

    I've debated over at DC for almost 2 years now and I've never doen what you do. I've never whined or complained about being treated unfairly.

    What do I do? Set forth my arguments stand by them field opposing views have a good time doing it.

    Whereas you're out to prove all of Christianity is wrong because you say so all the time...that's silly.

    Just say what you believe and why. Debate the ISSUES, not stuff that off in Pluto. That get old and like I said, we know what SIN is and we chose to leave it by the grace of God and thankfully nobody over her is weak, or tetter, tottering in their faith like radicals seek to convert.

    We're strong in the Lord and getting stronger as we share. You don't understand though. Unlike a Christian coming to an atheist board, an atheist coming to a CHristian one opens themselves up in dimensions that you don't understand. You open yourself up to prayer that you say you don't want and information that sinks into even the most stony heart and makes change.

    So in essence you "think" you're here for one thing and you're really here by divine appointment and the longer you stay the more you'll be challenged and changed, not for the worse either, but for the better.

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  45. Well you should be so rapped to be challenging and changing us then huh Harvey.Feel free pray for me all you like and challenge and change hard out all you like too,im real fine with it.

    Not sure how you will be challenging and changing folks that much by banning some of them though Harv,like you have done.Must be some new strange type of preaching im not used to.Seems more likely to me though that you just get angry.Ban them because you getting your knickers all in a twist cause you just cant handle it and its the best thing left you can think of doing.

    Of course you could always just make this a blog only for your followers,and we others could simply go away so you could all pat each other back and tell each other how wonderful things are etc.But things wont just simply go away,if they really need to be discussed with others not in your group as well.

    Whatevermans and others have some good points,you and other faithful friends of yours might not think so.But you post on atheist blogs they dont just ban you if its not what they want to hear.

    I wont bother to argue with you to much about it Harv,but feel ive sure seen you windge and moan enough from time to time on blog for instance about how you feel christians are treated wrong.Or this or thats not right.You could have simply disappeared too like maybe you really wish i just would,but you wanted to stay on the blog and say woe is me poor little christian.Its not good and just not right that folks are leaving and christianity is going downhill.Its no good that so many folks are finally sticking up for gay folks,and giving christian bigots heaps for being homophobic.

    Hey Harv yeah sure i mention stuff about my past,my reason is because i know the real problem is you and other christians really would rather just not hear any of it.And when someone else mention elswhere how his very young child died of leukemia think it was,and keep sticking it up you!! asking where the heck was your god Harvey when my young boy needed him..You finally couldnt handle it anymore either and just got shitty over that too.Tried the old return abuse trick on him too,to try and make him just disappear.But he still around too Harv hmmmmm.

    Im actually surprised you church folk finally facing sexual abuse thats happened in your church.Most likely mostly only because it just simply became unavoidable though.

    We not going anywhere Harv,even if you ban us from your blog you can be very very sure we still going to be around ever ready and waiting to say it like it is, and whats more we gaining more in both numbers and momentum week by week and day by day now!.

    Anonymous if you keep unfairly totally comparing adult gay couples and gay folks, to pedophiles and those folks into bestiality or sexual abusers and rapists etc.Like you really think there is just absolutely no difference between them at all.

    Sooner or later the majority of folks on this planet might end up being much much more worried and sickened about the thought of their children having to see and experience Christians.You really want that?,well you doing fine so keep at it tiger.

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  46. First of all, I apologize for this being such a long post.

    -----

    Anonymous wrote the following to me:

    Whateverman, I ask you, if group want to have sex with animals should they be advocated for? Please dont think I am over the top because someone told me he sees absolutely nothing wrong with it.

    I don't understand your specific question, Anon, so I'm going to assume you meant the following (please correct me if I'm wrong):

    if people advocate having sex with animals, or if they practice it privately, is that "wrong"?

    I don't know, Anon. The idea disgusts me, and I certainly would get angry if I saw/read/heard someone proposing that it's "ok" to do so.

    With that said, I stop short of saying it's "wrong" - only because I don't have all of the available information. I don't want it happening in my family or my backyard. But in order that I take into account my lack of knowledge about the entire issue, I do this: if the animals aren't being hurt/harmed, and as long as it's kept private, do what you want. I'm pretty sure I could argue "harm" is being done to the animals on a purely psychological level - and that the person committing the act has serious issues him or herself.

    Understand this: I'm pretty sure there are theists who feel about homosexuality the way I do about bestiality. They're disgusted by it and don't want it advocated. Fair enough. With that said, they make the mistake of assuming their disgust is a Just indication of the wrongness of the behavior.

    How can I say this? People used to be equally disgusted by images of black people being treated as peers to whites. Disgust is nothing more than instinct - and as such, I refuse to let mine decide how the rest of human society "should behave".

    -----

    Anonymous also wrote this:

    I am sure you are aware that people "like" to have sex with children, they "like" to kill, yes they actually "like" it. Like has nothing to do with it, right and wrong does

    Ok. If I accept this, you're going to have to show me that your version of right & wrong is superior to other versions. Although I'm sure you have faith that yours is the correct standard, there are other people with just as much faith in their standards who think you are absolutely wrong about yours.

    As someone sitting in the middle of this, how can I choose which standard is best? If I choose yours, I'm told by your opponents that I'm going to hell. If I choose theirs, you're not going to like my choice either.

    I'm a pragmatist. I would rather err on the side of caution, rather than tossing all my eggs into one religious basket and hoping for the best. Is homosexuality "wrong"? I don't know. I find it distasteful, but I try to strike a balance between caring for the person I disagree with while NOT advocating his opinions/behaviors.

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  47. Sorry, one more post. Anonymous, you asked me a really good question, and I didn't answer it in my last post. Here's what you said:

    Another question I have is about gay rights, when you have fullgay rights, what do I do about my Children? How do I protect them from being indoctrinated or even having to see this as norm. Please tell me what to do because I dont want my children to be confused and its obvious that this current administration is ardent about this. Where are my rights to raise my Children morally and have them taught morals in school?

    I'm someone who generally rejects the concept of sin. I believe there are rights and wrongs, but they have nothing to do with a literal interpretation of the Bible. I wont turn this into a discussion about ethics, though, because your question is one which I, a non-Christian, can relate to and identify with.

    What should you do? Teach your kids your values.

    Make them understand that adults don't agree about some of the really important things: God, standards of behavior, politics or whatever. Teach them that just because someone says "X is right, and Y is wrong" doesn't mean it is so - and then instruct your kids about what you believe.

    What more can you do? If you try to assault every opinion that contradicts yours, you'll spend more time fighting than time with your kids.

    It's possible to teach your kids that your version is the correct one. Many parents (religious or not) do this. Yet, all children who make it into adulthood realize they disagree with their parents about certain things - will they reject your standard or morality or your taste in art? Who knows!

    You have less chance of your kids rejecting your views if you're less "absolutist" about it. Teach them what you believe, not what you claim to be the truth. Show them why you've come to believe these things, not that they MUST believe the same things as you.

    These are my humble opinions, of course.

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  48. Gandy,

    You said:Not sure how you will be challenging and changing folks that much by banning some of them though Harv,like you have done.

    First of all I am a REAL pastor and do have a church and this board won't be an instrument for you or anyone else to spread garbage without it being checked and burned. Secondly, no one RESPECTFUL will be banned. Only those who like to go from point a to point z making no sense and being disrespectful along the way. That's uncalled for. If you make a point and the point is addressed, don't keep repeating. we heard it the first time. I'm simply not going to allow my readers to be intimidated and or confused by clowns. You know I like to banter, but at the end of the day give me some kool aid and let's watch a game.ie: "chill out" as they say. Some guys are in one mode- "Destroy all Christians", I only point out that there have been many better than them that have tried and all have fallen short. Some of the new arguments i see are only bad and twisted interpretations of old dogmas refuted twice over. So repetition is not a desirable thing.

    You said:"Hey Harv yeah sure i mention stuff about my past,my reason is because i know the real problem is you and other christians really would rather just not hear any of it"

    No because most of us aren't psychologists! We would rather hear you STAY ON POINT of an argument and if you want to ramble on various topics
    as it fits your needs, open your own site and get as confused as you want to be. What we want to do is ENJOY what could be a learning
    experience. Jive has happened to ALL of us and you're not unique, but you don't hear us throwing up our hands every other word.

    Regarding sconnor's son who died of leukemia you said:"Harvey when my young boy needed him..You finally couldn't handle it anymore
    either and just got (DELETED) over that too.Tried the old return abuse trick on him too,to try and make him just disappear.But he still around too Harv hmmmmm.


    Obviously you don't know what you're talking about but rely on atheist hatred. He too was not given sympathy because Sconnor exploited and dishonored his son's death for the sake or argument. He tried to use it as a tool to challenge and come at Christians making a whole bunch of silly, stupid, and unfounded assertions and he was stuck in his mindset like you. I reached out to him as a man and father, not Christian preacher and he let his religion hatred get in the way. A TOTAL moron (and you are quickly following the same path) So I don't take to IDIOTS to well no matter what they have been through when they act as if everyone owes them something...Guess what, WE DON'T. Grace is unmerited. God didn't owe
    him his son's life. That life came and neither he or his wife knew the exact moment of it, only God did by Grace. His son suffers no more
    but he does and I don't know but the last debate we had went pretty and we were able to make some points that were insightful. So what does that
    mean? It means you should only talk about YOU and what you know instead of things you have no idea about. You'll only look more pitiful.

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  49. Don't ask, don't tell is outta here now isn't it?

    One Presidential promise kept I guess.

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