There are more than a few comments that have been made in light of the Bishop Jackson ordination controversy. Though I have addressed other aspects of the issue in the previous post, another one of the criticisms is that the Bishop's laying prostrate on the floor was and ungodly act because it was a form of male emaciation, Roman Catholicism or Masonic in origin.
Statements like that not only show a hatred for Catholics, (which I believe is ungodly in and of itself, certainly non-Christian) but also ignorance of scriptures and the act of worship. Simply stated, worship didn't begin neither will it end with the Catholic church, and it is certainly not defined by Masonry and is not an emaciation of men or males. So there needs to be a disconnection between these issues and I believe obscurity exists because the devil is a deceiver and men are more open to being deceived now like never before.
What Does Worship In Spirit & Truth Look Like?
The bible commands that the requirement for worship is that it must be in Spirit and in Truth.
John 4:24 ~ God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in
spirit and in truth.
First of all, worship begins in the heart and mind of the individual. That worship must be directed at the ONE who is the TRUTH and that is God himself. The key to this is that worship actually begins long before it can be seen. However, there are things we can do to symbolize our worship and reverence towards God that God respects, honors and encourages. Some of those things outlined in the bible include, raising and clapping one's hands, yelling or shouting, speaking well of HIM and praising his name, dancing and singing, meditating, studying, praying, fasting and the list goes on and on.
Laying prostrate on the floor as an act or reverence, devotion, yielding and honor is in solid biblical order as well. This is also an act of the deepest humility. Here are just a few scriptures in support of my assertion:
Lev. 9:24 ~ And there came a fire out from before the LORD, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: which when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces.
Matt. 2:11 ~ And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
Isa. 66:23~ And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. (Many modern translations say "BOW DOWN")
Ps. 95:6 ~ O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. (What does bowing down begin with? KNEELING, bending and lowering one's self...)
Micah 6:6~ Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
Rev. 4:10-11 ~ 10-The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11-Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created
Rev. 7:11 ~And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Falling on one's face was an act, one of the most high acts of reverence:
Num. 16:45 ~ Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces
1 Kings 18:39 ~ And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.
1 Chron 21:16 ~ And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.
In addition to all of this, in 2 Chronicles 5 we note the the Priests "could not stand" in the presence of the Lord because the glory of the Lord was so strong. In Chapter 1 the Prophet Ezekiel saw the Lord and the heavenly host, couldn't stand on his feet and recorded the following in Ch.1:28:
"As the appearance of
the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of
the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of
the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I
heard a voice of one that spake."
The Fast Food Christian Generation
Now, this is a "fast food" generation and though it (by way of Christian believers) quote all kinds of scripture to make all kinds of points, I have wondered does this generation really know or have an experience of any kind with God? We now believe in "fast food" Christianity, which includes the "God understands me" type living and lifestyle, that simply says what it says, does what it does and claims that "God loves me anyhow"....We live in the generation of them that can tell you a thing or two, but when confronted with the truth and error of their ways, runs to the hills and every mountain for safety and security and agreement. Paul wasn't wrong, this is what they do even under the "guise" of Christian truth:
2 Timothy 4:3 ~For the time will come when they will
not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to
themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Well...THESE are the times!!!!!!
Lack Of Personal Experience With God
My question to you is, have you been there or do you go?
Blessed!
This may be offensive to some, of that I am sure, but the problem is, as I see it, a serious lack of any personal experience with the true and living God.
Judges 2:10 ~ And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.
This new generation. has relegated truth and truth seeking to radio blurbs, TV personalities, internet expostulation, blogs, daily rants on Facebook, Tumbler and even Tweets. Personal experience and reverential worship to God are things of antiquity, lore or folklore. The movement of God and the people to really be responsive to God in public worship has been reduced to "casting out devils" (because many of the same critics can only find devils in the church and believe that everyone but THEM has one...go figure!) and various types of "healings" that many times only they and their adherents attest to or confirm.
See, I have had my experience in a very real and personal way. I KNOW and have experienced and seen the healing power of God. I have PERSONALLY seen and peered into spiritual things undefined by natural realm or natural processes. So I KNOW beyond scripture that God exists and the scriptures are real. I have been there for myself and given my life to the pursuit of that ever ongoing and real TRUTH.
Laying prostrate on the floor is an ordinary and even necessary experience for me. When I see a Catholics do it, it is only something that I pray that is blessing them and something by which they receive from God. To demonstrate this form of humility before God blesses me. So far as the rest, (as it pertains to the ordination) our scriptural opinion is clear, but the profane in no way overshadows the HOLY nor the HOLY God we serve. Thank God for that!
Blessed!
You neglect several scriptures that state literally not to prostrate in idolatry, before items, or before men or angels. I will go with scripture that is repeated over and over again. From exodus where worshipping (reverence) in front of images or Peter telling a man to get up and not prostrate in front of him, to the angel in revelation telling John not to fall down in his presence.
ReplyDeleteProstrating before God not man or images, that is what scripture say. If catholics or other denominations are accepting of their own traditions, that is there business. My God tells me to prostrate only towards Him and so I face nothing or no one in my prostration. To question peoples relationship with God because they do not agree with the topic of your story or you is not christian either. As a matter of fact, the earliest christians had discussions on what should be done in traditions and not all were in agreement. You can go back to James insisting Paul attend the ceremonies while in Jerusalem as an example. Religious tradition is just that, tradition. If the bible says one thing, and your church tradition says another or a church is in opposition to God with ramapant pedophilia and sexual inappropriateness coming from its clergy, I would be more concerned if that tradition was even being graced.
ReplyDeleteJon,
ReplyDeleteApplying the common sense of scripture, one "should" understand that serving or bowing before idols in worship is wrong. There is no suggestion in the article that idolatry is right or endorsed, so you seem to be placing the old classic "red herring" argument out, to display what I don't know.
Our servitude towards God however is only as good as that same servitude, respect and love towards man. In fact Jesus's message is solidified by stating that they (people in general) would know us by the LOVE we have one for another. (Jn. 13:34-35)
So although we don't worship men, we do serve one another, instead of kick one another as it seems you like to do.
I don't "question" anyone's "relationship with God". You just spent 2 comments throwing stones at Catholics (I suppose) doing what you "say" that is unchristianly. It seems that you readily do that with those who disagree.
Then failures of men in church, similar to yours as you've displayed, and are all egregious. There is NONE exempt. Yet the CHURCH is still ordained of God and God still loves people. We can ALL thank him for that.
Scripture plainly implores both tradition and Spiritual (God given) value ethic and moral. One would only need to summarily read 1 Cor. 11:16 to concluded that. But that is another subject.
Quite simply do this...say what YOUR freedoms give you to say and don't demand others to speak for you or echo you. My assessments are mine and I am not your clone and neither do I need approval from you to engage any subject.
You do you, and I'll do me....Those are words to live by.
Thanks.
You are completely not addressing the topic. You are commenting on as if someone were in judgment. If that is your feelings, you would have to take that up with scripture. I commented on scripture and its repeated stance against worship, bowing before, prostration, reverence, or whatever people would like to call it before anything or any man (read peters response to cornelius bowing in reverence - literal word for word from scripture). Doing you and me doing me apparently is why the local church is in trouble now because everyone wants to do themselves an are not doing thus said the Lord. Loving people sir also includes truth of God's word and ordinances. Love is not following tradition that may be a "disputable matter" or even not even biblically based. Men following traditions over God's commands. It just totally blows my mind the ire raised when "tradition" is questioned in retrospect to the words of God in scripture. Truly it is no wonder the the local churches condition. And by the way, I am not addressing the catholic church, I am questioning the sexual immorality of all churches including COGIC as well to be more specific. To continue with traditions and turn a blind eye to perpetual sin. Does grace abound in that because one says it is a church of Christ? I hardly believe that to be the case even by the very words of the apostles. Good day. Interesting
DeleteNo, what you are doing is STRAINING at a gnat and SWALLOWING a camel. Your argument and commentary is rudimentary and needs no bible defense. Sin is sin, whether in individual homes or groups, so your commentary is lost and ineffective.
DeleteYour aim is obvious, to advocate for the ineffectiveness of the organized church based on it's imperfections and sins, only, as I say, there is NONE perfect but the Father. No ONE gets a pass on sin and that is already understood. So I refuse to "try" to find something either helpful, on topic or constructive in your conversation, because it is simply not there.
Your "comment" on scripture is nothing that we don't already know...The church is in trouble because it listens to and follows shoddy councilors, many of whom feel that they are in a unique class whether in or out of the organizational church. That is the problem....
And I am not forcing you to agree and I have not labeled you for not agreeing. It is your choice. As I said in my first post, there were disputes from the beginning between the 12, at the counsel of Jerusalem, even up till early church councils. So to say that a person is wrong because they question an act or tradition that does not appear to be one appropriate for men of Christ, people have their right to disagree without being "prayed for" or being told they are wrong to do so. That is obviously why there are many denominations of the same faith. All with their own traditions, all with their beliefs, but all centered on one faith. I do know that the gratuitious use of the word LOVE is a misnomer for many to silence truth. Did Paul not love those in the faith that he rebuked for their traditions? Did Paul not dispute with the very Apostles himself on traditions and matters of the church. So questioning of a "tradition" is far from wrong and speaking on it is also not error either. Not enough speaking out on "tradition" has been done in the black church in particular to the point and condition where we are now. Far removed from the saints of the old black church.
ReplyDeleteTradition is to be held to if it is sound...2 Thess. 3:6 ~ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. With "paradosin" or "tradition" meaning "instruction passed from one generation to the next".
DeletePaul was delivering the word of God that would become a "tradition" to all believers. Only the modern so called church (church confused) views sound practices and beliefs as antithetical to Christian faith and practice. That is a horrible dogma that traps many of the modern confusers...
Being "wrong" depends upon what one is "wrong" about. A person can't be a believer saying that satan is Lord. No matter how much they say that Christ accepts them and they have a confession, that belief and what they extend for us to hear and see is wrong. A tree is known by its fruit.
People that bandwagon onto lies and perpetuate ungodliness bear that fruit, for the believers "feet" are beautiful and they are not "swift to shed innocent blood" but they "believe and hope" all things. Anyone know that they hope the best until they have reason for otherwise.
You seem to be offended because I named some liars that you obviously have confidence in, wrong and ungodly and if so, I made and executed an accurate judgement, because, unlike most, I do my best to not make a judgement unless it is supportable by the evidence. Still say, saints and true believers don't engage in bowing themselves to the IDOL of BLOSSIP...they center themselves around truth.
So I agree we ONLY bow to God, but we honor men, because Christ is in them, supposedly like all them that believe and have placed their trust in HIM.
Traditions "of men" were the only traditions condemned in the word of GOd. Sound practices and history was to be held on to, rehearsed and used as a foundation upon which to build the future.
ReplyDeleteNo One...not even a novice can call me into question regarding COGIC or any other church. My record precedes me and it is placed here for all to see that have eyes and any sort of understanding?
Has anyone that questions me, spent any time advocating for victims? Have they spent one dime of their precious money that they look for an excuse to not share with anyone other than themselves and causes they direct, to bridge the gaps of the hurting?
Have ANY of them stood with the hurting out of their way to bring healing or created and presented plans and advocacy to apply the healing salve and preventative measures against abuse?
I don't see and know of any critics that have....yet they all talk and the more they do the more they are condemned by their own inaction.
Before one speaks to me about any form of sin in the organizational church that they can't turn a "blind eye" to...do some research and find out who you are addressing first. That may make the ride a lot more easy.
LOL and SMH!!!!