Tuesday, March 1, 2011

Calling The Community From Death To Life

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved"
Romans 10:1

I think I'll just let them speak:

The Testimony


The Poem


Testimony ~ "Born in sin, shaped in inquity, open to do all sorts of things BUT..."


21 comments:

  1. thank you sir. And SPEAK we will.
    I know both of these ladies personally and they are sweet and saved for real.

    Im sad and astonished that in THIS SEASON the church continues to ignore such powerful, God-given tools literally at its doorstep.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Amen Elder, I saw the one's interview with you after a conference that you spoke at. It was also powerful.

    I'm like this, we've got to save the remnant that want to be saved and persuade those that will listen that they too can be saved and be set free.

    Now, Palmer said he didn't see any of these people and they are as abundant as only opening one's eyes. People like himonly want to justify sins by claiming that its so natural and normal that a person can't change. No matter how one becomes a homosexual, persons can be free, saved, set free and real.

    Thank God!

    ReplyDelete
  3. Min. Gerald Palmer

    The church ignores the testimonies of so called ex-gay because the church knows deep down that there is no such thing as being exgay.

    If God wanted folks to change our sexual orientation, he wouldn't have given it to us in the first place. People who say that they are exgay are still attracted to the same sex but abstaining from sex. Still gay. And instead of creating a gay Christian watch or participating on the watch Harvey and Foster should truly embrace what they are truly struggling internally against.

    That is what this is all about. Your own personal struggles with your sexuality. God is okay with gay.

    ReplyDelete
  4. So shouldnt your wife go ahead and divorce you so you can get with what you really want? Using your convoluted logic, Jews who fight against anti-semitism secretly want to be nazis. And blacks who speak out against racism really want to be white. Is that how it goes, oh unbalanced one?

    If addressing an issue with consistency equates to "struggling" with it, you should be the first to admit your secret desires, right? Perhaps you should go ahead and let her know tonight so she can move on with her life. If your logic is good for others, it should apply to you too? Otherwise you would be little more than a d-list hypocrite.

    Actually, the way you stalk legitimate blogs (Ive deleted dozens of your bizarre comments) is disturbing. But I guess that's what people who would otherwise be ignored, do to get the attention they need.

    Pastor Burnett is truly a charitable man.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Palmer,

    First you have no clue of biblical exegesis regarding this issue and secondly, as Elder Foster says, you hail the logic of a frog. In fact frogs make more sense than you.

    Your premise is pathetic. Even IF one is born gay the command is not to be gay according to the word.

    Now, who said that just because a person is a certain way, that the way they are is perfect or how they are supposed to be? So even under the most liberal scenario...just being generous...making teh assumption that one is born gay....YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT that makes sense.

    According to your twisted logic, the pedophile that feels that they are "born" with a sexual perversion for children should be encouraged and accommodated...how about the Jeffrey Dahmers that feel that eating people is both physically and sexually fulfilling? Should they be accommodated???

    What stops the world from making laws to accommodate the millions that feel as they do?

    I like the way the sistah put it...we were born in sin, open to all that sin has to offer, but there is yet no excuse for our sins and we are to submit our sins before God...PERIOD.

    Any biblical exegete worth his salt knows that...but Palmer plays these little idiotic games.

    Only thing I've seem you do is offer is a secular moral sense...the "human" value of struggling with sexual identity...You haven't got a biblical case because there is none to support your garbage.

    If one is going to advocate for homosexuality be like our dear friend Ausfhrt...He is a very honest person and one that I have come to like. Be like him and do so because that's what you believe not because you "pretend" that the bible favors your sick argument...advocate for homosexuality out from under the garb of "minister" because that's a LIE straight from the PIT of hell. Biblical EVIDENCE in no way favors his position and like Gomes, Hawkins and all these others inclusionists you'll pay the serious price for your apostate lie. Unfortunately others will too.

    ReplyDelete
  6. So two twins were born conjoined at the head and surgery can correct the situation and it has been determined that both will live if they are separated...

    Palmer says..."Hey wait a minute...they were born that way. Leave 'em alone."

    Everyone with a bit of a brain and sense says..."DO the procedure Dr. and we'll stand by in prayer and support them as they recover."

    A person is born with a cleft palate...Palmer's logic..."Let the palate be the palate...they were born that way!"

    Once again everyone with a brain says, let's correct this with a specialist to the best of the ability that it can be corrected"

    Why do we do this?

    Because we KNOW that being born a certain way does not equate the way things should or are supposed to be.

    Now, that's the first thing...secondly, in those cases above we can trace things to some type of event or some type of chromosomal disorder or something. there is a genetic trail. In the case of sexuality we KNOW that all science says it's in the best interest of humanity to be born heterosexual simply to repopulate the earth and continue survival of the species. Not to mention that there is NO homosexual genome or genetic pattern and that even based on the law of large numbers homosexuality is a deviance rather than a norm...

    But people with no argument persist!

    What can you say?

    ReplyDelete
  7. Minister Gerald Palmer:

    @ DL Foster

    "So shouldnt your wife go ahead and divorce you so you can get with what you really want?"

    Good point DL, I should have stated my comment better. Let's put it like this: There is no such thing as ex-gay, people who consider themselves as ex-gay still have same sex attraction but are not having sex with the same sex. Even if they ignore such an animal as sexual orientation, it still is real.

    In other words those that are fighting so hard against the gay community are actually fighting themselves and their own desires.

    The examples you gave are folks who are fighting against oppression. Jews who fight anti-semtism are fighting wrongs against them, blacks that fight racism are fighting wrongs against them. Folks like me are fighting heterosexism and mistreatment of our lgbt brothers and sisters.

    You? Your fight is against your homosexuality. Gay folks have not oppressed you, they have not done a thing to you. The underlined point is oppression and pain.

    I hope that is better.

    You stated:

    "If addressing an issue with consistency equates to "struggling" with it, you should be the first to admit your secret desires, right?"

    You don't address homosexuality, you attack people, you slander folk. If you really are addressing homosexuality then attack the so called causes of homosexuality.

    Now I see why legit ex-gay groups have distanced themselves from you.

    "Perhaps you should go ahead and let her know tonight so she can move on with her life. If your logic is good for others, it should apply to you too? Otherwise you would be little more than a d-list hypocrite."

    Yes sir I struggle. Every time I hear stories or see the tears of those hurt by your lies and the lies of those like yourself who deny the truth that sexual orientatation is a God created gift.

    "Actually, the way you stalk legitimate blogs (Ive deleted dozens of your bizarre comments) is disturbing. But I guess that's what people who would otherwise be ignored, do to get the attention they need."

    You are quite good with painting others as bizarre and disturbed however you are good with deleting, blocking and degrading those those that challenge you.

    "Pastor Burnett is truly a charitable man."

    Yes he is not a coward.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Palmer,

    Stop attacking the man. Elder Foster is a great Christian brother and highly knowledgeable. So please stop disrespecting him personally as you do. I know we have disagreements, but you are diggin especially on him as a person and that's uncalled for and I won't allow it.

    The fact is he made a legitimate observation regarding your assertions and draws logical conclusions on what you are saying here.

    Another fact is that you live in denial regarding this issue. Joe Dallas is yet another minister I've featured here, a former homosexual and yet you say "There is no such thing as ex-gay, people who consider themselves as ex-gay still have same sex attraction but are not having sex with the same sex. Even if they ignore such an animal as sexual orientation, it still is real."

    That doesn't make sense...if you can apply that to anything else in life, let's say, "lying" (and I do know some who lie with almost every breath) you will say that there are no ex-liars only some who control their impulses to lie better than others? That's simply a false premise and does not pan out biblically or even naturally.

    There are many people who have reverted and changed from one thing or another and

    ReplyDelete
  9. Minister Gerald Palmer

    Thank you for allowing me to respond on your blog. You invited me when you mentioned my name.

    "Palmer,
    First you have no clue of biblical exegesis regarding this issue"

    Oh but I do, we have been down that road.

    "and secondly, as Elder Foster says, you hail the logic of a frog. In fact frogs make more sense than you."


    Right and you tell me to stop digging on Foster?

    "Your premise is pathetic. Even IF one is born gay the command is not to be gay according to the word"

    Where in the Bible does it say to stop being gay?

    "Now, who said that just because a person is a certain way, that the way they are is perfect or how they are supposed to be? So even under the most liberal scenario...just being generous...making teh assumption that one is born gay....YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT that makes sense."

    Hmm if we are not born with our sexual orientations intact we certtainly don't choose them.

    "According to your twisted logic, the pedophile that feels that they are "born" with a sexual perversion for children should be encouraged and accommodated"

    The same lame ole comparisons, the same illogical responses.

    Again pedophilia is not a sexual orientation, it is an illness.

    "how about the Jeffrey Dahmers that feel that eating people is both physically and sexually fulfilling?"

    Again mental illness.

    "I like the way the sistah put it...we were born in sin, open to all that sin has to offer, but there is yet no excuse for our sins and we are to submit our sins before God...PERIOD."

    She is a tortured soul who was taught that her sexual orientation was wrong, was evil was the same as being a pedophile or a cannibal like Dahmer. Being gay is not a sin and the scriptures that we have been taught that describe homosexuality have been used incorrectly. And there are plenty of exegetes who back this up.

    However they are the ones you guys deem false, etc.

    "Only thing I've seem you do is offer is a secular moral sense...the "human" value of struggling with sexual identity...You haven't got a biblical case because there is none to support your garbage."

    There is no struggle with sexual identity if you learn that God made you just fine. It is folk like you who poison the water.

    "If one is going to advocate for homosexuality be like our dear friend Ausfhrt...He is a very honest person and one that I have come to like. Be like him and do so because that's what you believe not because you "pretend" that the bible favors your sick argument...advocate for homosexuality out from under the garb of "minister" because that's a LIE straight from the PIT of hell. Biblical EVIDENCE in no way favors his position and like Gomes, Hawkins and all these others inclusionists you'll pay the serious price for your apostate lie. Unfortunately others will too."

    The lie is the one that you are holding Harvey. Not only do I believe what I believe but I can back it up in all areas.

    ReplyDelete
  10. "Palmer,

    Stop attacking the man. Elder Foster is a great Christian brother and highly knowledgeable."

    Foster does the exact same thing to others.

    "Another fact is that you live in denial regarding this issue. Joe Dallas is yet another minister I've featured here, a former homosexual and yet you say "There is no such thing as ex-gay, people who consider themselves as ex-gay still have same sex attraction but are not having sex with the same sex. Even if they ignore such an animal as sexual orientation, it still is real."

    Not only do I say that there is no such thing as ex-gay, I can back it up. Joe Dallas is another one in the camp of lying to folks about sexual orientation. Another tortured soul.

    "That doesn't make sense...if you can apply that to anything else in life, let's say, "lying" (and I do know some who lie with almost every breath) you will say that there are no ex-liars only some who control their impulses to lie better than others? That's simply a false premise and does not pan out biblically or even naturally.
    There are many people who have reverted and changed from one thing or another and"

    Sexual orientation is different from lying. You have to lie to be a liar, to be gay or straight, you don't have to do anything.

    I will speak up for right and I will speak against men like you and DL Foster all day. Again I have much respect for you because you allow those that you disagree with to answer, Foster does not.

    He attacks many and blocks them like a coward. He gossips, and attacks just like you but you allow others to answer.

    Thank you for that.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Palmer,

    regardign my statements concerning Joe Dallas you said:Not only do I say that there is no such thing as ex-gay, I can back it up. Joe Dallas is another one in the camp of lying to folks about sexual orientation. Another tortured soul.

    Now you said you can "back it up" where's the PROOF? Where is your evidence that Joe Dalls is lying or that he is tortured? This is your chance...

    I expect to hear something new, not the same ole...also you have not addressed any of the real issues...

    I stated:"Now, who said that just because a person is a certain way, that the way they are is perfect or how they are supposed to be? So even under the most liberal scenario...just being generous...making the assumption that one is born gay....YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT that makes sense.

    Let's just assume that a person is born with a homosexual orientation (which one isn't but let's revert to your territory)Since the bible CLEARLY has a denounciation of homosexuality throughout, how can you justify remaing a homosexual once confronted with biblical truth?

    Aren't we to submit our will, ways and actions at the Cross in response to HIM that calls us out of darkness?

    ReplyDelete
  12. Look I am done with you my friend. Once you start editing my comments I can't do nothing with you.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Palmer, you MUST use your name or a handle or go through blogger, they remove spam automatically. I thought you had deleted a comment, but I'll check spam. I have no control they automatically secure some anonomyous commentary.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Palmer,


    You said:"Where in the Bible does it say to stop being gay?"

    Well if the bible condemns all actions that a homosexual does and promises that those that do the acts that homosexuals do are in sin and will resultantly go to hell...I would think that should be a good enough indication that the bible not only condemns homosexuality but certainly condemns those that continue to be gay...

    You said: "Hmm if we are not born with our sexual orientations intact we certtainly don't choose them."

    All sex is a choice. Feelings of love maybe not, but sexuality and the desire is a choice. Some choices are driven by our sin nature and are perverts, alas any sexual deviance, whether heterosexual or homosexual...

    regarding my statement on pedophilia and other sexual deviance you said:"Again pedophilia is not a sexual orientation, it is an illness."

    According to whom? Youm? Just a little while ago the classification of homosexuality was a mental illness was it not? What changed to make it "normal" or a "normative" part of sexual experience? ...Aaaaa Nothing! Nothing other than a liberal agenda and anti-God rhetoric of science...So the analogy sticks and is very applicable to the conversation because many pedophiles don't feel it harmful to have sex with adolescents. That's why there is an increasing advocacy to lower sexual consent ages and normalize sex with children all the way down to age 12 and 13 in many cases.

    Now what will you do when this becomes the law or it is allowed and ages of consent are reversed in America? Will you still call them that do this "mentally ill"? Are they more mentally ill than homosexuals were and are?

    You said:"Being gay is not a sin and the scriptures that we have been taught that describe homosexuality have been used incorrectly. And there are plenty of exegetes who back this up."

    Where are they and from whence do these devils come? We know the false doctrines but name ONE that renders biblically accurate and supportable materials in favor of homosexuality...Mel White certainly doesn't...You??? I don't think so...

    You said:"There is no struggle with sexual identity if you learn that God made you just fine. It is folk like you who poison the water"

    It's folk like me that point out that the foolishness that you believe is full of lies and will send people to hell. It's folk like me that uphold the truth that God has a standard of living that encompasses our total life including our sexuality and if we are not submitted to him we're in trouble.

    God may have made us "just fine" but when sin entered the picture through no choice of our own, the acts and desires for sin also entered through no choice of our own...

    In all of this you still have failed to answer the questions asked...So I'll put it to you like this:

    What gives you even the smallest impression that how we are born is that way that God intended for us to be? So now all men are born holy and perfect according to you...then why do we need God and what was teh sacrifice of Jesus about at all...you just said that God made us "just fine" so according to you we need no help right???

    Honestly, tell me how does that sound???

    ReplyDelete
  15. Oregonsistah,

    http://www.hicktownpress.com/“please-step-away-from-the-mic”/

    I think you will like this article and site. Have a blessed day

    ReplyDelete
  16. Oregonsistah,

    Great article and thanks...it said:"Preachers that struggle with homosexuality use the crutch “well, I was born this way”. I am singling this out because it has become prevalent in light of the recent events at two prominent Atlanta churches. That is a cop-out. We ARE ALL BORN SINFUL!"

    That's a truth...we have no excuse to continue in sin because Jesus did what he did to make us free.
    Thanks again and be blessed.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Minister Gerald M. Palmer,MSW

    Let us find common ground. I want to listen.

    Do you believe that all people should be treated with dignity and respect? Do you believe that gay folks should not be called fags, sissies and dykes from the pulpit?

    ReplyDelete
  18. Palmer,

    You asked:"Do you believe that all people should be treated with dignity and respect? Do you believe that gay folks should not be called fags, sissies and dykes from the pulpit?"

    Let me admit my previous fault...I used to think that things like that didn't matter.

    There was a time where for me, calling a homosexual a "fag" or a "sissy" was out of hand under the guise..."I'm calling them what they are"

    Now, believe me if you want to or not, it was a blog post where Elder Foster and another minister called St. James I believe enlightened me on the subject. We dialogued about the harmful nature of basically name calling...and I changed my position on the issue...

    I really don't think to call the homosexual nothing other than lesbian, homosexual, bisexual and standard type terms that are not lent to picking on a person's sexual choice (in my opinion)

    I definitely believe that all opportunities, so far as employment, health care, housing etc...should be extended without consideration to their sexuality, however I draw the line at marriage and am processing the implications of civil unions even though, I believe as a freedom people have teh right to give their money to whom they wish and select their own power of attorney's etc to conduct business. I don't like the government intrusion into those areas of personal freedoms anyway.

    So "gay bashing" I believe is totally inappropriate, but as you know I reserve the right to outline a position and vigorously defend it. As a person of faith, I believe the bible supports my position and I can only point out the flaws in the argument of those that interpret the bible in an opposing manner.

    Now, I've said it on other posts and trust me that I will do so...if a gay person comes to me with an issue where they have been denied housing, access to medical care, or had their human dignity challenged or denied because of their homosexuality I will fight for them with the same vigor I fight for others. In fact I have done so. Some are reluctant to tell me that they are homosexuals, but I have spent just as much time advocating for their rights as I would if they hadn't been gay.

    Now, that position I know opens me up for criticism on some levels, but I think we should advocate for a person who gets stopped by the police and gets beat down because they are a homosexual as equally as strongly as if they were Rodney King...

    So I'm a little wordy here but that is my sincerity regarding the issue. Now, how do I balance that as a matter of faith? Through submission to what God says. now, I love what he says, but if I run into something that I don't understand, I've learned to say yes to the Lord anyway.

    So thanks for asking and giving me a chance to explain and I know holding me accountable to what I say and set forth. I think that's a good thing.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Minister Gerald Palmer,MSW

    Amen Harvey let us keep this healthy conversation going.

    "We dialogued about the harmful nature of basically name calling...and I changed my position on the issue..."

    The name calling is harmful, I know so many lgbt friends who were called those harmful names in the church. They are still hurting today. Along with that though, is the hurt of not being affirmed.

    "I really don't think to call the homosexual nothing other than lesbian, homosexual, bisexual and standard type terms that are not lent to picking on a person's sexual choice (in my opinion)"

    You believe that being homosexual (having the attractions) is a choice?

    "I definitely believe that all opportunities, so far as employment, health care, housing etc...should be extended without consideration to their sexuality,"

    Cool, there is still plenty of discrimination that lgbt folk face and especially black lgbt people. Transgender sisters (man to woman) are faced with so much violence, drug addiction and prostitution.

    "I draw the line at marriage and am processing the implications of civil unions even though, I believe as a freedom people have teh right to give their money to whom they wish and select their own power of attorney's etc to conduct business. I don't like the government intrusion into those areas of personal freedoms anyway"

    So if gay couples could get the same benefits as heterosexual couples without putting the marriage tag to it, you would be fine with that?

    "So "gay bashing" I believe is totally inappropriate, but as you know I reserve the right to outline a position and vigorously defend it."

    Do you believe websites like gay christian movement watch is gay bashing? I do and many other Christians do as well. It is one thing to comment on theology but it is another issue to attack the people. What is the use of talking about a dead man? What is the use of gossiping about the sexuality of others?

    I know you are not in charge over there but you are a visible figure there and it goes against what you said about bashing.

    "As a person of faith, I believe the bible supports my position and I can only point out the flaws in the argument of those that interpret the bible in an opposing manner."

    You do realize that I feel the exact same way as you. That is why I asked for common ground.

    "Now, I've said it on other posts and trust me that I will do so...if a gay person comes to me with an issue where they have been denied housing, access to medical care, or had their human dignity challenged or denied because of their homosexuality I will fight for them with the same vigor I fight for others."

    Amen.

    "In fact I have done so. Some are reluctant to tell me that they are homosexuals, but I have spent just as much time advocating for their rights as I would if they hadn't been gay."

    Amen

    "So thanks for asking and giving me a chance to explain and I know holding me accountable to what I say and set forth. I think that's a good thing".

    That is awesome. The thing that I never do is demonize folk. Others may call me false this or that and add other unfavorable titles to may name but I learned to stay away from that. I never called you a homophobe or any nonsense like that, I saw from your interaction with ausfarht that you could be okay.

    Thank you again for this conversation. Let me say this in all honesty and love, you should really distance yourself from gay christian movement watch. You are way better than that. I mean that truly.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Palmer,

    You asked:"You believe that being homosexual (having the attractions) is a choice?"

    Yes. I believe that all sex is a choice. I also believe that there is a such thing as "inordinate" affection, or affection that is simply out of the order of God. A person with a sexual attraction for another person of teh same gender has an "inordinate" affection (Col. 3:5) in my opinion and understanding of scripture. This is defined accordingly:

    "inordinate affection": ~ Gk: páthos (from pásxō, "having strong feelings") – properly, raw, strong feelings (emotions) which are not guided by God (like consuming lust).

    This type of thing is not limited to homosexual love. It can be an expression of any type of lust over even inanimate things. I believe things of this sort are spiritually driven and not purely psychologically driven although there may be some psychological undergirdings present or that facilitate it. I also believe that this may or may not be a cognitive act or action of an individual.

    So "choice" may not involve a person's ability to pick an alternative behavior as much as it involves following the behavior to which they are drawn.

    You asked:"So if gay couples could get the same benefits as heterosexual couples without putting the marriage tag to it, you would be fine with that?"

    I would like to think that I approach this subject sensibly and reasonably, but I can only lay out what I believe. Usually the erosion of rights is a one way ticket. Conferring sam sex civil union rights may not appear to be "immutable" at least initially, but I believe it's a dangerous and slippery slope argument.

    As we have witnessed when marriage becomes law, parental rights are eroded and parents cannot teach their children what to honor in may cases such as Mass. with Dr. David Parker. (I believe that was his name)

    I prefer this approach...get the government out of the issue all together. We currently have Power of Attorney's and other legal documants that can bridge these gaps. Trusts can be established to bypass probate and guarantee privacy, and healthcare POA's and Living Wills are generally honored without restriction in every state.

    Under current rules property can be transferred etc and in most states, AFTER insurance underwriting and approval, policies can be amended to reflect the beneficiary designations of non-qualified insurable interest parties without question. In other words, a person can change a beneficiary on almost any policy anytime, without notice, without having to satisfy insurable interest requirements. husband/wife/partner not necessary.

    So without changing the laws and creating a monster in teh process, educate on how things can be done economically, and affordably.

    In short, every individual has the right as a US citizen (in my opinion) to dispose of their personal effects without the incumberment of any individual or state or federal entity. I only say do not make a special class, because it will be never ending.

    See 2

    ReplyDelete
  21. Palmer,

    You said:Thank you again for this conversation. Let me say this in all honesty and love, you should really distance yourself from gay christian movement watch. You are way better than that. I mean that truly.

    Now I can only say that I have grown immensely as a result of my relationship with Gcmwatch and I don't see any of the "bashing" that you intimate. I see homosexuals willing to bash him for many of his positions and what he brings to light and I see him standing firm in his calling...I applaud him and continue to lift him up.

    We may approach subject in somewhat of a different manner at time, but we're coming from two different perspectives. I've never been and never had homosexual inclinations and or tendencies etc...I have loved women thoroughly (-LOL-to my SHAME!!!) BUT the point is that my first view is through the lens of scripture and subjection to God. The same effort that it took to free me from my lust for women is the same effort that it takes to free a person involved in same sex attraction from same sex attraction, but as I see it some folk want their cake and want to eat it too...

    I had to struggle and submit to God, why can't others. That's why I know all sex is a choice my brother...I had to choose to commit to God, I simply ask why can't the homosexual, polygamist, pedophile or anyone else do that too??? I mean it's much more easy to stay and do what you "feel" that is a natural part of your self...but at the end of the day, we find plenty of poison in nature too.

    So thanks, but I love GCMwatch even if I don't pursue his particular focus. he has to do what God has commissioned him to do and I can only encourage him and it. now, I'm sorry if you've felt slighted by him, but I know it wasn't just a mindless sloughing off, there's got to be more to the story.

    Thanks again and I appreciate the dialogue also. This isn't an easy subject and I've got a post I'm preparing on a little more in depth basis dealing with the legal aspect of this issue.

    ReplyDelete

Please send me an email if you try to post a comment and cannot do so. Dunamis1@netzero.com. Thanks.