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Tuesday, July 23, 2019

Why Has The Western Church "White-Washed" Biblical History?

It may simply be a "sociological" phenomenon. The desire for a culture, any culture, to make the imagery and moral codes of historical, heroic figures their own. To identify themselves with the best and most heroic figures and acts in order to associate themselves with positive and virtuous ideals and ideology.

Is that the case with Western Christianity? Why has the influence and even inclusion of Black people in the bible, in significant roles I might add, been either reduced or overlooked in biblical discussions and studies? Then what of the contribution of African Christians and apologists during the early post Apostolic era? Why has their imagery also suffered from this "white-washing" motif? 

"The White Jesus. The God Of The White Man's Religion, Christianity"

One of the chants that have been reverberated over and over, quite in error, by groups such as The Nation Of Islam, and the Black Hebrew Israelites, and others who have held to Black Nationalism and Black Separatism, has been that the Bible and Christianity in general is the "White Man's Religion" and Jesus is a "White man's God".
In short the story goes like this:
The White man, took Black man both from his home (Africa), and his religion (Islam ~ at least in most cases) and stripped him of his cultural identity and re-indoctrinated him to believe in White superiority (aka: Christianity) and in the White man's god (aka: Jesus) and did this all as a control mechanism.
But the question is how did this "White man's religion" become a "White man's religion" and the Jewish Jesus become a White European in the minds of many?  

Author Forrest G Wood states this:
"Graphic portrayals of Christ had to be “as far removed as possible from anything that could suggest darkness or blackness.” The result was a Renaissance image of Christ that recorded his transmogrification from Semitic to Aryan, his dark hair and beard evolving into “the color of sunshine” and his dark eyes magically taking on the “color of the sky” from which he descended and to which he returned." ~  Forrest G. Wood, The Arrogance of Faith: Christianity and Race in America from the Colonial Era to the Twentieth Century (New York: Knopf, 1990), pg. 51.
So it seems that the evolution of the European Jesus and his association to a Eurocentric religion, where a cultural virtues were aligned with biblical values, was more of a sociological event than a biblical or religious or even migrational truth. 

White Christian teachers and preachers such as the late Billy Graham, noted relentlessly that Christianity was NOT a White man's religion, neither was it a Black man's religion, but a religion of ALL men, and that there was no cultural advantage/disadvantage to any race in accepting Christ or in repentance.

However, what some teachers did was severely reduce and downplay the influence of Blacks and Black culture from the biblical narrative itself. in the many places where Blacks or African countries and cultures are mentioned, they are nearly always downplayed when the teaching is positive and hailed when the teaching is negative. 

For instance...When I was in theology school, our Old Testament Survey professor taught a message on Moses wife, Zipporah without the mention in any form that Zipporah was or could have been a Black woman and that the reason that Moses sister Miriam and Aaron did not like her, or mocked and criticized her, was because she was Black. (Num. 12:1) 

Now, part of this stems from the fanciful conjecture that  Moses had 2 wives as opposed to 1, and that Miriam and Aaron were simply criticizing the one. However, there is no reason to think or believe that Moses had 2 wives from the text. There is reason however to believe that Zipporah, was not only a Midianite (Jethro or Reuel's  daughter) but was also a fine dark skinned woman of possibly Cushite (Kushite) or as the KJV says "Ethiopian" descent. Either of which would have led a faithful historian to conclude that the woman had African ancestry or heritage and therefore was a Black woman by heritage. 

Conversely, in Exodus 18, Jethro (aka: Reuel), Zipporah's father, being a Midianite, who by virtue of his lineage also had a historical Black heritage, was responsible for helping Moses to effectively organize his duties as a chief Judge to adjudicate the grievances of the People under God's direction. 

In other words, the first theocratic form of governance that the bible points to was, in part, organized by Blacks and people of color. 

This is hardly a narrative that anyone within Christianity preaches or teaches today. In fact it is often held that churches organized by Blacks are somewhat disorderly while churches organized by Whites are generally more orderly. (which is a completely different article) But the point is clear, Black people and positive Black culture over time, and even within the biblical narrative, has been downplayed or ignored and even cursorily stepped over in many instances. 

Very little effort has been given to pointing out the praise or positive contribution of Blacks within the pages of biblical writ and I personally believe this has led to the confusion, alienation and even anger of millions of Black people over time to conclude that they have no or very little positive place or history within the world and ultimately society itself.

Teach It In Schools. The Bible IS Black History

Most shocking to many is that Black people's place and history within the bible is certain and in many instances if not most, very positive. For instance, it was a Black man, from an African territory of Cyrene, that helped bear the cross of Jesus during the crucifixion. (Mk. 15:21, Lk. 23:26) That is certainly not coincidental. 

There is much more that can be said on this topic, but please watch this interview with Dr. Theron Williams. I believe you will find it eye-opening.    

65 comments:

  1. I’m trying to find a name for the church I’m starting that accurately reflect the character of our Lord Yahweh. Here’s a few names I have in mind:
    St. Joshua the Holy Genocidal Sadist COGIC (Joshua, the ancient Hebrew warlord that killed thousands for Yahweh)

    Phineas Memorial Ministries (you remember Phineas? The nice man with the spear who’s double homicide made Yahweh so happy that he stopped his own round of mass murder. But not before he murdered 24000)

    New St. Abraham the infanticidal Patriarch COGIC (Even though Issac was spared I'm sure he battled PTSD for years after seeing his father come after him with a knife with the intent on stabbing him to death and then burning his carcass so Yahweh could smell it)

    Hang them before the Lord COGIC (remember when Yahweh starved David’s kingdom by sending a famine because of what Saul had done? So to get Yahweh to quit starving everyone, David had 7 of Saul’s descendants “hung before the Lord”. This mass homicide made Yahweh happy so he quit starving everyone)

    Plague, Pestilence, Torture and Death COGIC (just read the Old Testament and you’ll see the true character of our Lord Yahweh)

    Kill All of the Firstborn Ministries (like when Yahweh hardened Pharoahs heart so hedh have an excuse to murder all of the firstborn humans and animals of Egypt)

    Jephethas Daughter: The Human Sacrifice COGIC (he offered her as a burnt offering to Yahweh which Yahweh gleefully accepted)

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    1. FUNNY...to say the least....tell you what give the police a week or two off and let's see how your "good all by yourself" human moral codes kick in. In addition, EVERYTHING you suggest that makes God maniacal only applies if God is a human like you and I...Lot more i could say but stick to ONE point at a time...Don't have time or energy to review OLD REFUTED out of pocket arguments.

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    2. Of course....we're human. No one says that humans are all good or all loving...hence why we need police. However, Yahweh is said to be those things. And if Yahweh can still be those things but condone or worse, order to be carried out genocide, slavery, rape, inducing famine (starving to death is a slow, painful way to die) etc then what does it mean to say Yahweh is all good or all loving. You might as well say the opposite because at that point, it has no meaning. You'd consider me evil if I intentionally killed ONE person. Yahweh slaughters thousands, even millions and he still gets to be good?? In fact, according to the Bible, he kills more than Satan and the one's that Satan kills, Yahweh gets half the credit for those because he gave Satan permission to do it.

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    3. I guess I will go down this long lazy haze of utter confusion that you are in because I need some exercise, I suppose...simply no real good reason to for I am sure you've already had many of your LAME assertions debunked by others...but since you need to know my take, as if I have never encountered anyone with arguments like your's, (because you are sooooo unique right?)I suppose I will indulge:

      You said: However, ( for context: loving kind and good) Yahweh is said to be those things. And if Yahweh can still be those things but condone or worse, order to be carried out genocide, slavery, rape, inducing famine (starving to death is a slow, painful way to die) etc then what does it mean to say Yahweh is all good or all loving.

      My response...WOLF TICKETS AND HOGWASH and more rambling GARBAGE! There is no passage or divine command where God commands rape, slavery and or genocide as a way of life and or practice...and the the places that you "think" he did, such as the OT where he commands the destruction of 5 nations, this was a case of JUDGEMENT and correction upon enemies, not only of God but also humanity. EVERY ONE of those 5 nations had over 400 years to get right, were doing some of the most damnable practices, such as baby murder, and genocide themselves, and were total haters of any humanity outside of themselves. They became generational cancers to society, embracing human sacrifice, sexual perversion and all kinds of degenerate practices.They were ingrained to murder the innocents...Now, in your world of morality, God should have simply "loved" them, displaying his hatred for the innocent right??? Your whole diatribe falls flat on its face in light of the evidence we have both written and archaeological.

      Further, God NEVER commanded rape and or slavery and in the cases were people were taken whether as servants and or wives they were given RIGHTS, that law codes of the day such as that of Hammurabi and others, did not even think to have and or include...in fact under Hammurabi's code, a slave could be killed simply for looking or focusing his/her eyes the wrong way or on the wrong thing...They had no current and or eventual rights of freedom and certainly no such thing as a jubilee or release. There was no rule of freedom and or release. Now set God's commands in that and you find a code head and shoulders above anything that existed and a way OUT of slavery for good and the death of it as an institution. This is why nearly EVERY abolitionist accredits GOD,. the Christian God especially to their change of heart on slavery and other perversions. Many of them accounting that they thought things JUST LIKE you present...but God REMOVES their blindness and causes them to decry humanly immoral behaviors. Thank God for JUDGEMENT, for without it, LOVE cannot exist


      I mean you people have problems...You think that your sense of modern morality exceeds that of the ancient, and yet you are involved and endorse many of the same sick practices and then blame God...You are truly sad!

      You said: Yahweh slaughters thousands, even millions and he still gets to be good?? In fact, according to the Bible, he kills more than Satan and the one's that Satan kills, Yahweh gets half the credit for those because he gave Satan permission to do it.

      As I have said earlier, your whole argument rests upon a warped interpretation of love, which does not include judgement and ultimately justice. If God is God at all, no action would escape him. even the thoughts and actions of free moral agents. satan is a free moral agent as well and exercises his freedom to do what he is, but RELUCTANTLY and BLINDLY becomes an agent of God even in his free will, evil capacity...I already know you can't fathom that so I won't go any further, because you're blinded by carnality...so there is no need for an indept in hos God uses ALL things to serve his purpose.

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  2. Many of the biblical people resembled brown Arabs. Plus, notice the striking similarities between the barbarism we see today in the Muslim world and the barbarism we see in scripture. Those were the same people

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    1. We see barbaricism TODAY...what of abortion? What of infanticide? of of medical mistakes being the 3rd leading cause of death in the US? That is mighty barbaric to me....

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    2. Medical mistakes are just that...mistakes. Doctors and medicine aren't perfect nor have I ever heard anyone claim that they are. That's why doctors carry malpractice insurance.

      Yahweh is the grand master of infanticide and abortion. How many times did he order that women, including pregnant women and babies be killed??

      God will punish women by aborting their fetus through a miscarriage.

      “Give them, O LORD–what will You give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.” (Hosea 9:14)

      God orders Moses to kill every Midianite woman who was no longer a virgin. (many of these women would obviously have been pregnant) (Numbers 31:15-18)

      God promises to destroy the infants of Samaria and rip open the stomachs of pregnant women.

      The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. (Hosea 13:16)

      God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah to be ripped open.

      At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women. (2 Kings 15:16)

      Lots of Christians say that scriptures like the 23rd Psalm or Philippians 4:13 are there favorite bible passages. I wonder why 1 Samuel 15:3 isn't among the favored Bible passages of modern day Christians. Let's take a look at what it says:

      1 Samuel 15:3
      3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

      Looks like some infanticide mixed in there.

      Psalm 137:9
      9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
      and dashes them against the rocks.

      Yahweh strikes a nation with a famine so great that it reduces them to cannibalism of their own children

      2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”

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    3. Here we go, and by the way, I am GLAD that you finally disassociated yourself from the person of R Kelly...I suppose living and pretending to be him is difficult especially when he is in jail and denied bond.

      Anyway...not only do you absolutely BUTCHER the interpretation of the scriptures you reference, you do something greater to make the statement...

      What you do is EXALT human morality OVER God's moral nature and even the moral laws of ancients. This is post-modernism view of reality. Your view is "better" than the ancients, and even better than God's. Certainly the self exaltation of man!

      The problem is this, if God is God as we claim, his entitlements to act, whether positively or negatively as we interpret his actions are allowed. As the giver of life, life does not exist without his decision to provide it. If he chooses by his own will to take it and or end it he is entitled to that.

      In addition, your writing displays that you view all writings of the bible the same. In other words you make no distinction between apocalyptic literature, prophetic literature, and or divine commands, and parallels, entendres, inclusios or any distinctions. in other words you approach complex portions of scripture with absolutely no discipline. You pay no attention to style of literature and distinction of purpose for which it is written.

      For example, you reference Hosea 9:14 suggesting that God carried out a genocide on the women of Samaria...However Hosea was a PROPHET delivering a JUDGEMENT using prophetic license of parallel because Israel had perverted its concept of God and its worship and had followed idolatry. The pronouncement was one of judgement, using an allegory of a pregnant woman (Israel, which should be "pregnant" with the message of salvation) having the "baby" (special or exclusive relationship with God) ripped away or out of her.

      Not only was the exclusive pattern of "salvation" aka: the baby, ripped out of Israel, but it was extended to the whole world by the sacrifice of Jesus...

      Now,. THAT is how the narrative is interpreted. Otherwise, NAME this genocidal episode in history? When was this fulfilled, other than by judgement in which Israel lost it's national identity?

      Another often cited by radicals such as you is Psalms 137:9 and you are right in the playbook...Now was Psalms a divine command? If God wanted infants seized, in this manner, does he not have divine command by which this should be done? Why is there NO prophet or otherwise that is famous, or infamous for going through Israel and doing this to women...You won;t see it. Why? BECAUSE IT WAS NOT A DIVINE COMMAND! It is language of parousia or JUDGEMENT. Indicating that the enemy, would be HAPPY to subdue you as a nation as an act of judgement directed by God.

      So, I don't care...bring the most damaging scriptures that you "think" impugn God and his character, but READ the literature for what it is and distinguish the differences. The bible contains history, but not all is history nor historic. The bible contains prophecy, but not all is prophetic. The bible contains commands, but not all are commands.

      But RADICALS, will be radicals now won't they??? And you know this MAAAAAAAAN!!!!

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    4. One more thing, about the only close argument you could possibly have here is Numbers 31. The problem is that Numbers 25 comes before Numbers 31. One does not understand Numbers 31 without a few things...

      1- God's commands to sexual purity, faithfulness and purity in worship
      2- the egregiousness of the culture of sin and sinful sexuality and what it did to Israel
      3- That God is real and as a part of his realness, means what he said and will preform what he has said, or else he is a liar and not God.

      All these elements exist in this narrative...We have a culture that turns the hearts of a nation under GOd's divine command AWAY from God intentionally and did not expect judgement or punishment in return...

      Now, the girls, were not young as in 15 to 18 as your Westernized and anachronistic view of the scripture suggests.These girls were more likely 10 to 12 and UNDER. In other words, not only was there a prohibition against rape already, and this whole passage dealt with aligning Israel WITH what God was saying and commanding, but did not allude to rape. It alluded to making servants of these little girls...

      OK, you say, well the boys were killed...I say, YEP, that was sad that the sin of their FATHERS and older individuals fell on them. But what were the alternatives? To live with anger, a desire for revenge (not that the girls could not feel such) but also with a determination to follow the "god of their fathers" when liberated from their captors? I mean it could be the girls doing this but society was different than ours at that time.

      Herein is the issue....the assumption is that our society and what we agree is right to do is the BEST moral value. We deem that saving the children of this war was humanistic. Like Thomas Payne we revolt at the idea that God's morality is LOWER than ours. We become the arbiter of moral truth...our judgement becomes the judgement whereby the world is made right...y'u-know, WE ARE GOD!!!!

      Yea right...then we woke up and realized that we are as confused if not more confused than most ancient societies on moral meta-ethics and values...

      The point is that this passages affirms the nature of God as holy, and one not to be triffled with as the people did. Yes, he is merciful and loving, and at the same time, like any judge on the bench that has children, will work within the context and scope of their power to judge or make judgement.

      Now, if this life is all there is, or if God is only a man or a figment of man's imagination, there would be a problem. But since NEITHER of those assertions are true, God being the author of and giver of life is entitled to take any life as he sees fit for his purpose which we can only wonder about at any time with or without reason. That is a prerogative of God, not men or mankind.

      In addition, IF what I believe is true, the young boys killed ended up better off, as they would have been in God's presence because the fault or sin was not theirs even though the judgement was. That is yet another concept that you may not like, but you not liking it, doesn't make it not true or a truth!

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    5. So you actually try to get around the rape part by appealing to Yahweh ordering mass genocide, which is arguably worse. Like, oh Yahweh would never condone rape, but what's a little genocide and mass murder here and there??

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    6. OK, you're a kid sitting at home enjoying life. Your father and mother commit mass murder. They are caught and sentenced to DEATH. Who is the victim?

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    7. I don't get the meaning of the question...

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    8. Now, I was waiting for the answer to the first question...but there is a 2nd question too. May as well ask it now. Who is EVIL?

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    9. Do you care whether what you believe is true?? I think on the one hand you do but on the other hand you don't. Every single argument you make can be and in fact has been made on behalf of the Muslim Allah. When ISIS chops off someones head they say the exact same thing about Allah being righteous and holy yada yada ya. The only difference is that where Moses and his troops used swords and spears in the 21st century BCE or whenever, groups like ISIS use AK47's, .45's and explosives in the 21st century CE. Which Moses and the Israelites would've no doubt used had they been available.

      The only thing is...you think that Muslims have the wrong god. If they had been getting their orders from the Hebrew Yahweh rather than the Muslim Allah, you'd be all for what they are doing.

      Yes....I am more moral than Yahweh and so are you Pastor. You know genocide, slavery, killing all of the men and boys but keeping the women for yourselves is wrong. You just can't bring yourself to criticize Yahweh like you feel free to criticize Allah. Because you believe that even though Yahweh loves you, he's perfectly willing to have you tortured in a lake of fire forever if you dare disagree with hi. Sounds like a certain dictator in North Korea. Except Kim Jong Il couldn't possibly have someone tortured forever.

      As for slavery, Yahweh tells you where you can buy your slaves, who you can buy them from, how hard you can beat them, that you can pass them down to your children as inherited property. Matt Dillahunty is brilliant as holding theist feet to the fire when it comes to them trying to defend biblical slavery.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frxAVJ3sOmc

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    10. The victims of the murder are the first and foremost victims. The child is a victim in a way as well. But we don't get to "keep her for ourselves" at least if the child is a virgin girl. We don't slaughter him if he's a boy.

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    11. What you are confused over is the apparent parallel between Christianity, even OT Judaism and Islam. This is YOUR issue not mine and there is clear distinction. Divine command theory for Christians does not include mass murder or "jihad" as in Islam, nor did it include such in the OT under Judaism. So you simply misrepresent the entire case overstating as most radical atheists do, in an attempt to support your case.

      God's "commands" were not out of hand and or pocket. There was plenty of pre-warning for repentance and realignment BUT people refused. It was the SINS of the people in Canaan that drove them out and even then only 5 nations were pronounced utter destruction as judgement. For the same amount of time, Israel was in Egypt, the Canaanites were and had been warned of destruction and repentance. This was over 420 years. What were their choices? Repent and change, or remove themselves. Since they did not believe God, at least Yahweh, who as you claim was immoral, they refused to do either. It is interesting, that you and other radicals claim Yahweh to be psychotic...however, he did not LIE about what he was going to do did he? So he would be a TRUTHFUL megalomaniac to you huh? That is interesting, afflicted with mental illness, YET stands by his word. That is conflicting, but I'll pick up on that one later.

      But to listen to radicals like you ., God pronounced death and destruction upon everyone who would not follow him, YET that is not inferred in the Bible in the least bit, UNLIKE Islam that you continue to invoke. So one could simply start by presenting a FACTUAL case, instead of a false parallel.

      Secondly, in the biblical narrative, each nation was given adequate time to turn, repent and change and they did neither. I think that is important because radicals as you don't make any distinctions, except for when it suits your case.

      So here we have 5 nations that embraced abominable practices including indiscriminate murder of the innocent, including attacks against Israel and spoke of God with utter contempt. Then they established their actions as a cultural and societal identity. Goliath appears as one source of proof of this. Notice that God did not pronounce total judgement or annihilation upon the Gathites. Why? they spoke boldly against HIM...

      So disagreement with God was NOT the issue. Neither was immorality...Your warped version is simply and sloppily intellectually lazy and spiritually misguided. You offer no context but view all things as equal...a death equal murder to you. A death does not equal judgement and or justice unless of course it is for your specific benefit to hold the position, like all materialists do.

      So your invocation of the Islamic parallel and basis of divine command theory, as far as I can see and compare, miserably fails. They are not one in the same as you try to contort them to be.

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    12. Secondly, lets look at victimization...You say that "victims of murder are first and foremost victims" and go on to say "the child is a victim in a way as well"...Then you simply avoid the evil question all together.

      So for you, as most, as I have stated sloppy sophists, you have 2 distinct categories of victims and victimization. You claim that those murdered are "more" victimized, than the child of the murderous parents.

      However, there are 5 classes of victims here. Those murdered and their families, the child and his or her extended family members, and the community in which these murders took place. The victimization is rampant and extends deeply.

      I know this because I have done over 50 prayer vigils for families effected by street crime and violence. In each case, not only is the immediate family of the victim effected, but the extended family, community, and family of the one who did the killing, both close and extended family members. ALL of them need healing and what is just to one class is not necessarily just to the other.

      Now, if you had sense, you would agree that the one bringing the pain, or doing the murder is evil or unjust.

      But what you want all of society to believe is that the JUDGE, by pronouncing capitol Punishment is unjust...Herein is the issue...

      In what word, where there are at least 5 classes of victimization, does the JUDGE be accounted for evil because of his judgement?

      Is there a better judgement available? Not for an all knowing judge! How could there be? Does that all knowing judge, have to accommodate those who observe his judgement? Absolutely not! Why would he have to?

      As stated, the family and extended family of the murdered may think life is appropriate. However those who have lost their family members to murder, may feel that death cannot occur quickly enough. Who's right?

      Now, let's look at the real of judgement and then I'll deal with your whining about the males or boys being put to death as opposed to the girls and why...

      IF the judge does nothing, no justice is dispensed and murder is on the same par as non-murder. They are equally fulfilling actions. However, in GOd;s case, in every situation people are first TOLD that there will be judgement, told how to avoid it and given time to do it...

      Example...In Joshua, Rahab tells Caleb and Joshua, that they Jericho, has heard of them (Israel) and the terrible nature of their God and what their God had done to Egypt. This is why their city was fortified and shut up. Now, how many years ago did this occur? Simply...40 years ago.

      In other words by the time, these nomads, who had never fought a war, arrived 40 years later in Jericho, they KNEW that their city and way of life would be judged. They would meet the God that they had heard about for a whole generation of time, some for all of their life. Yet, most of them, did their own thing. Ignored, any instruction and or warning and considered themselves above God.

      It was the embracing of sin that destroyed Jericho. God judged it, they held on to it, and they were caught in the judgement...Contrast that to Nineveh. Judgement was pronounced in 40 days. Over that period everyone repents. They are not Jews, but find favor with God, not for killing, but for repentance. They don;t die in 40 days. Did God lie? You say..."gotchya your God is a liar!" However, Jonah answers that doesn't he. Jonah understood that God was compassionate and that is what he was afraid of. What actually happens is that 150 later Nineveh turns back to their evil and are destroyed. Judgement was delayed, but what God purposed he did, but dealt with the people accordingly as any JUDGE does.

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    13. When a judge in a courtroom makes a decision it is firm. However, there is a such thing as "contempt of court" in our system, whereby a judge can modify or heap on a sentence if it is perceived that his court has been disgraced, or overlooked.So what would have been 1 year, can easily turn into 2 or what would have been 5 years can easily turn into 7.

      For contempt, does the JUDGE have to answer rhyme or reason? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

      Contrary to a natural judge, God always gives even the guilty opportunity to correct. Therefore, penalties are in most cases delayed for considerable amounts of time. However, in every case where God has decided to judge, it WILL occur surely. If he is JUST, he must judge and since he is God, he judges according to his own edicts (as most judges do) without regard to perception. Or else people claim partiality and God says he is not a God that is partial, EXCEPT for those covered under the Christian covenant.

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    14. Now, if you are an R Kelly fan, you should know all about judges and judgement. So I will digress from that simple examination which when it comes to God all of you radicals lose total sense about, as stated except when it is you...when you are victimized you want a JUDGE and JURY all at once in one motion to avenge you, no matter what the judgement is...That is your selfish nature at work.

      Now, on to the little boys who were killed according to the edict of Phineas.

      So, in this case, Phineas becomes the judge adjudicating Israels contemptuous sin of idolatry and sexual immorality and perversion. Now, as stated in Chapter 25 the idolatrous relationships began and were promoted. In Chapter 30 they were judged.

      Part of the judgement included salving the girls under 12 (most likely) and killing the young men and boys of the same age and younger. You look at the judgment and claim the judge is evil as stated above.

      Why do you do that? Because the penalty is harsh and unusual? But IF God spoke and said that people should not engage in idolatry and or sexual perversions or sins or else them that do would die (which is the law) then how do we as humans get off saying that the judge acted too harshly? As the giver of life, he takes life to himself as an indicator that contempt will not be tolerated. However, this judge is not a man, he is God. He does not command punishment on nations that did not offend, only on the offenders.

      You say, "those poor children" ! And sit up righteously indignite! "God is horrible"!!!!

      However, you give NO credence (another very sloppy thing you do) to the character of culture in ANE times. Culture of any society was carried and promoted by the MALE. not female. So here, at least you would have some kids, too young to defend themselves, but old enough to remember, that would have raised themselves full of hatred, for the judgement that fell upon their parents and effected their lives. They would have been enslaved with RIGHTS of release. Now, do you think they would have accepted the God of Israel? Maybe some would. Maybe some would not. However, the JUDGE that knows all, said, whether they will turn or not, I pronounce this judgement to allow all people to know that I stand by my word, and my word is serious.

      As God, he has the innocent in HIS hands. They are not nor will be in hell because of their parents. However, the message is clear to the living.

      For God not to have judged would be immoral. For HIM as ultimate judge to make a judgment is HIS to make and just like you may not like the judgement of a natural judge, God's decisions do not have to appeal to our warped sense of human value.

      Name me a NATURAL judge that cares about what you think of his/her judgement...God, not a natural judge, does care, but has already said what the judgment would be and gives us space and time to correct, unlike the natural judge who does no such thing, except for a sentence of probation and that is another issue.

      Delete
    15. So in your material world, the judge is evil, while the offenders, both Israelite and Midianite, that were already aware of God's commands and actions on those who engaged in the perversions that they did...remember when Moses went up and the golden calf and sexual perversions took place???

      Israel knew EXACTLY what the judgement of God had been in the past but were in CONTEMPT of heaven and God. You claim that to be evil. You are SILLY!!!!

      What judgement should he have implored? Done nothing??? Save everybody alive? Then what of correction?

      One thing you don't is think things through...

      Like slavery...all the atheists, "God should have condemned slavery"...well he did IDIOTS!!! He defines slavery so far out of the books that it no longer looks like, acts like, nor feels like, slavery as it is known in those days or even in modern times. There is buyout rights, causes of action and a freedom clause and a care clause that slaves, when freed, MUST be provided for by their former owners...What is that???

      You want God to tell the slaves to revolt. You want a blood war that kills families and everything. Don't worry, God does not endorse chattel slavery and never did. Slavery only exists as a result of mans free will choice to do evil, not GOd's endorsement and when he speaks on it, he sets parameters around it to change the very nature of it.

      Your little anti-GOd apologist can talk all they want in favor of their religious materialistic view, but they misrepresent facts and offer all kinds of anachronisms to prop up their false assertions. Totally sad.

      Delete
    16. Like I said, you are just rationalizing it away because it's the god that YOU believe in. Muslims make the exact same statements about their god. The only reason you think they got it wrong is because you think they worship the wrong god. Don't know how familiar you are with the assasination of Malcolm X but what commonly gets overlooked is the religious motive behind it all. The people who killed him felt that they were instruments of Allah's judgement on him.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF89sUqs7mg

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM3mW5HnRZ4
      He states that Malcolm X was considered an apostate and had slandered Elijah Muhammad and it was his duty as a righteous Muslim to slay the apostate. As spelled out in the Quran, the inerrant and perfect word of god (according to Muslims).

      So by your own logic...you have to admit, what they did was right as long as they had commands from the right god. Because the ancient Israelite soldiers did the same type of slaughter for the same reasons, acting as instruments of judgement for Yahweh instead of Allah. And they did it on a much grander scale.

      But it gets worse than that. Those genocides for the most part was so they could get the land of the people already there. A lot of it was a land grab.

      Delete
    17. Once again Yahweh tells you where you can buy your slaves, how hard you can beat them, that you can pass them on as property to your children, who you can buy them from. The other form of indentured servitude only applied to Hebrew males. But you could get them to be your slave for life if you gave him a wife and child. Then at the end of 7 years you could say "You're free to go but it's a shame that your wife and child have to remain with me" then if he didn't want to leave his family he went to the elders who put an awl through his ear and then he was a lifetime slave.

      Delete
    18. Leviticus 25:44-46 New International Version (NIV)
      44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

      Exodus 21:20-21 New International Version (NIV)
      20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

      So you can beat them hard enough just short of death since "the slave is their property".

      The male hebrew servant which only applies to Hebrew males and no one else but it includes a loophole to enslave even them for life:

      Exodus 21:2-6 New International Version (NIV)
      Hebrew Servants
      2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

      5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

      Deuteronomy 22:28-29 New International Version (NIV)
      28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

      Delete
    19. Rape, murder and pillaging in the bible cont'd

      Judges 21:10-24

      So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

      The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”

      Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

      Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. Also, this story includes some good old fashioned mass murder as well. Notice how Yahweh does nothing and lets it happen in a time when he always made it clear when someone displeased him.

      Delete
    20. Numbers 31:7-18

      They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

      Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

      Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgin girls. And the genocide of everyone else.

      Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

      As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

      What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery? Also, even if they surrendered, they'd still be forced into slavery.

      Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

      “When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.”

      Once again God approves of forcible rape. Obviously if the woman refused her captor, she'd have been killed. The text acknowledges that she was "marrried under compulsion". I wonder what would've happened if she said "I don't"??





      Delete
    21. Yahweh accepts human sacrifice in exchange for helping Jephthah commit genocide

      Judges 11:29-40 New International Version (NIV)
      29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

      32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the Lord gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

      34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.”

      36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”

      38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

      Delete
    22. Further Jepthah DID NOT commit child sacrifice. You KNOW tge interpretation if wailing her virgimity was beamoaning the fact that she would be dedicated to the Lord without her own consent. She did not have a chance to chose to serve because her father had to honor his commitment.

      Why am I confident of this?

      Because unlike you I actually deal with arguments, I can point to 2 things that give me assurity...

      1 Abraham's call in Mt
      Moriah which God told him to sacrifice Isaac. Isaac becomes a proto-type in which a ram was provided to affirm the covenant. No child was sacrificed.

      2 God said that chikd sacrifice was a practice of the heathen and forbade such explicitly.

      Leviticus 18:21 "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD

      The thought if further completed:

      24-Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25-And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26-Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you"

      Now what you want us to believe is that God somehow condemns the practice of child sacrifice to others while encouraging it to himself. How dumb if an argument is that???? No wonder you don't argue it, it sounds too stupid to even get out of your mouth yet alone in words somebody can read.

      As stated that us refuted on its face and any Christian that contends that child sacrifice was what Jeptheh did is just as biblically illiterate as you. They however can be saved, but you will still be lost and confused.

      And.by the way earlier I said Phineas
      ..I meant Eleazar...


      Delete
    23. Now your rank misinterpretation if Deut 21:10 is also too fantastic....

      As I've said before you think leaving tge women and children in their village to suffer, be abused and raped is actually better than being tajen captive and given rights of citizenship.

      In the passage you cite, between v10 and v14, the word rape or any precursor appears a grand total of ZERO times. Incidently the word "wife" appears twice and huaband once...this was about MARRIAGE not RAPE nor SLAVERY!!!!

      Then there was a provision, if the marriage did not work because she could not continue, she was free to leave with a blessing and not sold as a slave...she was a wifenot whore or bed partner.

      I mean it's almost unbelievable what you guys believe the bi ke says when it says no such thing. Then to say it with auch arrogance...its incredible.

      Delete
    24. Then and the last time I will deal with anything you set forth as you deal with nothing...so expect your rants to be deleted if you don't deal with an argument (maybe you just don't know how) anyway, as you've claimed before Exodus 21 passage affirms perpetual servanthood...but once again, you mias the whole point. The servant that came single can leave single the 7th year. But what he was given while a servant aka:family he cannot take...why? Who will provide for the family suddenly? Should they become servants all over again? No, the practice sought to PROTECT the family and preserve it by keeping them together as the freed man desired to stay with his family...who has to provide for the family? The MASTER!!!!

      You obviously think its a bad thing to stay under protection and keep a family together...

      The more you radicals talk the more silly you sound!

      Like I said deal with arguments instead of quoting and asserting your interpretations. You obviously know very little about the Bible

      Delete
    25. Now, I suppose I should show this person how to make an argument and show this person what one looks like.

      What he is contending is that Israel endorsed sex-slavery.

      First where is the evidence for the claim? Is there literary or archaeological evidence?

      Lets look at 2 words where there might be some evidence...

      1 prostitute Heb. Zanah
      2 concubine, Heb. Pilegesh

      Interestingly Rahab was a prostitute. She exchanged sex for money. She was never defined as a slave.

      According to Gen.36, Timna was Amalek's mother. She was a concubine. That word indicates ine who is a paramour or a willing participant in a non marital relationship that involves sex...

      Solomon had 700 of these...none were associated in any manner with slaves.

      Kellz claims that the women in judges were "repeatedly raped" claiming that Israel fostered and participated in a rape culture. But where is the evidence? It is a figment of his imagination.

      There us no writings of the opponents of Israel that Israel maintained a rape culture. There are no writings or any literary evidence within the bible that a rape culture existed or that rape was ever encouraged or endorsed. So how do the radical come to their view?

      Through anachronism and imposition of standards of other cultures on ancient Israel.

      So we see no evidence in archaeology. No evidence in literature both friendly ir from opposition and no evidence if a sex-slave culture or practice from scripture.

      What we are left with is unsupported conjecture. A suspicion without a drop if evidence that continues to be repeated until it is believed affirming that a lie repeated enough.times becimes a fact even to the liar himself.

      Sex-slavery was a foreign concept to ancient Israelites and the closest thing to it existed in heathen nations and God declared Israel to not engage in those heathen practices and if they did they would be judged.

      So your arguments (which you make none) ia non-persuasive nor is it compelling. It is without any support and you twist scriptures to make a case.

      So have fun Kellz...until you can make a case...see ya and wouldn't wanna b ya!

      Delete
    26. "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves."

      Numbers 31.17,18

      Moses flies into a rage because his returning Israelite war party has slaughtered only the adult male Midianites!

      Yahweh murders for silly reasons:

      "At that Jehovah's anger blazed against Uzzah so that he struck him down because he had thrust his hand upon the ark, and he died there before God."
      (1Chronicles 13.9,10)

      God Kills the Curious

      And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and’ fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

      God sends bears to eat little children

      From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

      Delete
    27. Yahweh murders by sending a lion to eat someone for not punching a prophet:

      Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!” But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

      Yahweh says "Kill them all"

      “Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

      Yahweh threatens to cause rape and baby killing (let me guess you'll explain away the rape but ignore the baby murders)

      Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

      Delete
    28. Exodus 21:20-21 New International Version (NIV)
      20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

      Use whatever apologetics you ike but it's there in black and white for all to read. I'm just quoting the infallible word of the creator of the universe exactly as he inspired it.

      Delete
    29. As I stated repetition is not an argument and I will delete your repetitive assertions. Provide evidence. The text itself is NOT evidence of what you suggest.

      I notice you quote Ezekiel 9. You claim that this is a literal event that God commands right? Ooh yea plenty of murder and mayhem. I guess you got all us Christians and we should pack up and go to the nearest atheist meeting....

      Only problem is to understand Ezekiel you fist have to know that he is a prophet and speaks prophetically and mystically using parallels, associations, metaphors and many literary techniques.

      You make no distinction and look more and more silly suggesting "I just read it as it is"....

      Well Ezekiel 9 actually begins in Ezekiel 8...and here is what Ezekiel says:

      "3-And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. 4-And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain"

      Since you just read what it says, did you read that? It was a VISION of judgement for idolatry using parallels and allegory!!!! It was NOT a literal event....

      See this is what I mean. You quote a lot of stuff but have no clue as to what any of it means and to dogmatically assert something is not a case or arguement for it.

      Now, to be convincing I thought you would provide evidence from an ancient historian thatthis event literally ocurred or something that affirms the slaughter. Since the bible DOES NOT say it happened what evidence can you render? I know...NONE!

      You fail at prophetic and apocalyptic language. Thiae reading won't be as confused after really reading the scripture for what it says instead of reading it to try to prove a point.

      Delete
    30. The only other thing worth addressing, and your other points already adequately refuted, are the points on the Ark of the Covenant and the punishment of the mocking children, which are certainly hits on most atheist websites.

      Just so happens I have been preaching on these events for weeks now and did so again today.

      First, the Ark itself was sacred and Holy, represented the literal physical presence of God, and had special handling instructions. The Phillistines had taken it as a matter of judgement upon Israel, Eli and his house.

      The same thing that brought bkessing to Israel was a plague to the Phillistines. The men of Beth-shemesh were Israelites who knew the command of God, disobeyed by looking in and mishandled the Ark.

      Now what was God to do? Suspend his word or say he didn't mean what he said about the Ark?

      Secondly, Israel still continued to mishandle the Ark when it came to Uzzah. He was killed because he did not take tge word seriously. David later in 2 Sam. figured it out. He put staves back in the prepared loops and men carried it as was instructed.

      The point was God means what he says. So you can't seem to grasp why he doesn't lie. Maybe to you he should break his own word for certain circumstances...for the greater good...but he is not a man that he should lie!

      Delete
    31. The man eaten by the Lion in 1Kings 20...

      I mean you keep delivering easily explainable hits. You think Gods character is bad because he also judges. As I stated before and for the last time, judges don't care about your interpretation of judgement...so what you don't like it. That does not make his character worse, bad or evil..

      Here we have Ahab, a defiled, weak, king. This PROPHET had received a judgement upon Ahab and requested the help of an associate the associate refused. Why? Because either he had an affinity for Ahab, did not believe the prophet or disdained God's word.

      2 Chronicles 20 said to believe the prophets right? Evidently he was if good reputation and history. This man had a problem with simply following instructions and was judged himself as a result.

      Comes down to again, you don't like what God does.I say SO WHAT????

      The Old Testament does not allow us to see what we see in the New. God sees us through Jesus sacrifice on the cross and our acceptance of it. The OT reveals why we need Jesus. That is all you have brought up so far.

      Point to the countless scriptures where he says he loves both the righteous AND the sinner. The Quran cannot say that and does not say it (since you like to make parallels) sinners are not loved by Allah.

      Read how God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked Eze.33:11 and I k iw its a stretch, but try to understand the difference between pleasure killing and judgement...God doesn't pleasure kill as you suggest...

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    32. Now, do you belive in abortion? Or are you pro-choice?

      Answer that before I deal with your other illustrious insights on the children killed for calling the prophet bald headed.

      Let's see how really concerned you are about the welfare of children as you accuse God of not being concerned at all.

      Delete
  3. Here's a funny cartoon entitled "What Would Yahweh do"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmhFniUTQIE

    ReplyDelete
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    1. We don't deal in CARTOONS. We deal in TRUE arguments...So read this instead: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/can-we-be-good-without-god/

      Delete
    2. Hey Rev. I was going to engage, but remember the back and forth I had with that R Kelly guy. Like you said all these old claims has way been long addressed. What a waste!

      Delete
    3. For real and thanks. Now this Kellz "pretended" to be R Kelly before. But the real R Kelly is in jail at this moment and doesn't have access to computers. So he must have been a sho-nuff fake, or this one is a COVER. Kelly would more than likely do something like that to try to make himself look better...get a stooge to act on his behalf. What they don't know is that every comment leaves a footprint that can be narrowed by IP address. Digital fingerprints are available.

      Delete
    4. Yeah and that cartoon gives chapter and verse. It's not making anything up that isn't in the book. It shows Yahweh for the bloodthirsty tyrant he is.

      Delete
    5. If there's any misinformation in that cartoon, point it out. He even puts the chapter and verses so anyone can follow along in their Bible. Nothing he's saying is untrue and he's not claiming that something is in the Bible that isn't there.

      That's what you're doing. Make as many arguments as you like, but none of it is found in scripture. I quote scripture as it is printed on the page.

      Delete
    6. What both he and you say is there is not there in the context you state. You superimpose your belief upon it. That is the issue.

      Delete
    7. NONEOF THIS ADVANCES YOUR CASE AND IT IS ONLY A RANT...DISMISSED YOU CLOWN!!!

      Delete
  4. Repeating the same misinformation doesn't suddenly make what you are saying correct. You cintinue to spout incorrect information demanding people to deal with your arguments while you deal with nothing. You haven't said anything in response except "you're making a rationalization"...what is that?

    You're making bad and bogus arguments frim the new arrogant atheist camos of thought as If, just like they do, those arguments and same scriptures you say make your case habe never been put forth before.

    The religious schools if Germany and the form critics set forth the exact garbage that you and the new atheists continue to set forth. Tbise arfuments were refuted soundly then as they are today. Sad thing is your new version of the arguments arw weaker than the old because you make a false assumption that faith is devoid of resaon and analysis, therefore you assume that stringing enough misinterpreted scriptures together make a case, but it doesn't. Your refusal to engage the argumwnts make you look stupid...anyone can assert anytjing but engage the argument not simply move on to a new thought.

    ReplyDelete
  5. sorry about the misspellings. I am using my phone on some of these comments and I see it jacks up some words. So please excuse me.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Proverbs 18:2 - “A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.” 

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  7. Ancient historian Philo says this about Deut. 21:14

    “The wisdom and humanity of Moses, are very remarkable in this law, whereby the soldiers are forbidden to indulge a hasty and brutal passion, are kept a whole month in abstinence, and thereby have an opportunity given them of knowing the temper and disposition of the woman, for whose misfortune in captivity a compassionate provision is made, by allowing her so long a time of separation and mourning.”

    Philo is evidence against a rape culture.

    Where is the evidence in support of one?

    ReplyDelete
  8. No he sounds like an apologist. Consider the circumstance. And even eliminating the rape....there's still that pesky genocide which I'd argue is worst. But let's use common sense here. You have soldiers who cold bloodedly murder the men, women and children including the elderly but you think that they draw the line at rape?? LOL.

    Where is the evidence:

    Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)

    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

    What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

    What the above statement is saying is that they get a month before their captor gets to do whatever they want with them. Waiting a month to rape doesn't make it not rape. You can spin it however you like but it says what it says.

    And be honest, if any other holy book said the above, you'd totally agree with me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. First, I wouldn't agree with you because you have no clue of any context. I would do what I do. Check it out a number of ways.

      Secondly, I don't have to offer priif that the men would not rape. There is no proof that they did. You assert they did...YOU are to offer proof to support your assertion. So far all you have offered us you opinion.

      I have offered literary evidence, supportung outside evidence and pointed to the fact that a rape culture did not exist....to simply say "yes it did" is NOT an argument or proof...so move on.

      You have given neither me nor anyone any reason to believe you.

      Delete
    2. Then if you stop for a minute and read Deut.22 you will realize that rape of a woman is a penalty to the man. He gives up all rights and has to pay a penalty. Doesn't walk away free and there is no obligation for her to have sex with him.

      In other wirds the rapist is a FOOL! He has to pay, cannot divorce and has to continue to provide or care. She can leave if she wanta but the power is all hers.

      So who's the lunatic? The one who reverses what was a curse of rape, and gives the woman back her power and dignity, or the one who makes the false assumptions like you do that God does not demand justice of the rapist???

      Now, what would your judgement be? You would just throw him in jail right? Maybe a sexual rehab. Then what of the victim and her family and public shame? How is that addressed? How is this raped woman made whole by your judgement?

      Let's contrast a moment. You claim God's resolution plan inadequate. Partly because you can't correctly interpret it but now lets hear yours. Same circumstance.

      This ought to be interesting. I may delete all other comments from you until you answer that. I'd like to know.

      Delete
    3. R. Kelly is infinitely more moral than Yahweh. First, R. Kelly doesn't claim to be all loving and perfect. Second, he hasn't committed any genocides, slaughtered any children (or men or women for that fact), induce famine thus slowly starving to death entire populations, murder thousands with plagues, order that animals be sacrificed to him, accept human beings being sacrificed to him, threaten to force people to eat their children, send two she-bears to tear to shreds 42 children for name calling, drown everyone and everything on the face of the earth, kill 1 million Ethiopians etc. At least not that I'm aware of.

      Now, to answer your question:

      If it were men who wrote that...it would all make sense. Perhaps, under that time and circumstance, the man marrying the woman and having to provide for her for the rest of her life was the best case scenario because virginity was highly prized in a woman. So the woman may have been doomed to a life of poverty. I get that.

      However, you ignore the most important context of all. That supposedly was written by an all knowing god. So even though men may not have been able to figure out a solution, an all knowing god would. Unless he is not all knowing. You can't on the one hand claim that he is omniscient, but then try to limit his omniscience and say "well what else was he supposed to do"? I don't know, let's ask Yahweh, he's the all knowing one. And if he couldn't figure out any better solution than the iron age people of the time, at best it calls into question his supposed omniscience.

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    4. First of all, R Kelly is slime to the nth degree and you know it.

      Secondly, if God does not exist, then good old humanity, that is so moral, is responsible for all the pain you claim God is responsible for right? So both you and R Kelly are much worse off than it appears and certainly not moral at all, according to you. See you can' have it both ways. If God is not real, then who is responsible for what you criticize as being immoral?

      God's omniscience is not fatalism. In other words, because God knows the future and what is in man to do, it is not determined or fatalistically placed upon him to act. I know that is an advanced concept for you, But, I don't have time to really break down, how your world view without God IS a fatalistic one and one in which you can't escape any action that you take. It is called determinism and that is solely a materialistic worldview that comes with the territory you are on. There is no free will without God. FACTS.

      SO TRY AGAIN YOU SLIME LOVER!!!

      Delete
    5. And an "all knowing God" doesn't have to "figure out" anything. This all knowing God gives men, and obviously his angelic beings, free will to decide on their own what they will do and what they will honor. God doesn't destroy free will to restrain sin or avoid judgment. TO do so would be evil.

      I know these concepts are sometimes difficult, but people who come with the rant that Kellz does need to be better thinkers than that.

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    6. He didn't have any problem interfering with Pharoahs free will so that he could have an excuse to send plagues culminating with the slaughter of all of Egypt's first born. There was not a house without one dead.
      Exodus 7:3
      2You are to speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron must declare it to Pharaoh so that he will let the Israelites go out of his land. 3But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I will multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, 4Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay My hand on Egypt, and by mighty acts of judgment I will bring the divisions of My people the Israelites out of the land of Egypt.…

      He didn't mind tampering with the free will of the King of Sihon so he'd have an excuse to slay all of Sihon's inhabitants, even the little children.

      And I sent messengers out of the wilderness of Kedemoth unto Sihon king of Heshbon with words of peace, saying, Let me pass through thy land: I will go along by the high way, I will neither turn unto the right hand nor to the left. Thou shalt sell me meat for money, that I may eat; and give me water for money, that I may drink: only I will pass through on my feet. Deuteronomy 2:26-28

      But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand. Deuteronomy 2:30

      And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. Deuteronomy 2:33
      And we took all his cities at that time, Deuteronomy 2:33
      and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. Deuteronomy 2:33

      And apparently, Yahweh sends strong delusions to people so that he'll have an excuse to damn them for all eternity. So much for free will

      2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
      11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

      12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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    7. Like the fundy you are, you continue to miss the application of scripture. God hardening Pharaoh's heart was not some divine act of God "making" him do something. God hardening Pharaohs heart was Pharaohs response to what God was doing and who he was....

      Like this...A man hits his wife during an argument...what is the first thing he says in response to his abuse? Invariably..."SHE MADE ME DO IT"....He did it...but her arguing or whatever she said or did was so compelling until he responded the way he did and hit her...She did not take his hand, nor did she put out her face and say, i demand you to hit me...His RESPONSE to her actions made him do it...He LOST CONTROL!

      Same of King Sihon...and folk that WANT delusion prove that by not accepting him. So why would they complain about delusion when they REJECT truth???

      In other words, why complain about being deluded, when the truth has come and you don't like it??? What is truth to do? It is a waste of time isn't it? People receive strong delusion, because they LOVE the delusion more than they LOVE TRUTH.

      God's goodness and character still stands. at the same time, if you like lies, he will give you plenty of them and cause you to believe they are truth. It's up to you, not him. If he has already revealed truth, how much more can he do???

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    8. And here is another for King Ahab:

      2 Chronicles 18:20-21 ~ 20-"Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
      21- And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so."


      Why was this? Because Ahab DID NOT want to know the truth. He delighted in lies and only wanted to hear good things. He and his prophet Zedekiah were judged as a result. God allowed ie: sent a lieing spirit to deceive. Those that recognized truth, even Ahab himself, knew the prophecy of good things was a lie...He did what is called "holding the truth in unrighteousness"...

      Like you...you love LIES, so they keep on coming through your worldview. Pretty simple...I know a lot more as well, How about Saul prophesying for days 1 Sam. 18:10. in an EVIL Spirit...he rejected God so God turned him over to what? An EVIL spirit to make him look stupid, naked as a king prophesying...Why? Because HIS heart wasn't right. Not because God had a flaw.

      Delete
    9. Anything a person wants bad enough, God will let him have in abundance...see how much you like it then??? God gave them quails, (Num. 11:31) until God afflicted them and they got sick.(Num. 11:32) Why? because they wanted satisfaction of SELF greater than satisfaction of God. God was feeding them, but they couldn't stand his food that he prepared...they wanted something different...Sounds like you KELLZ...Sickened by your own appetite of self, selfishness, and hatred for God... You love swine, that's why God gives you garbage in your understanding so you can eat like a pig too...The word is not garbage, your understanding is...all jumbled up like that...

      Delete
  9. GLORY AND HONOR, you can respond to that rambling mess if you'd like. I have to go for a few days so you have it and when i return I'll post your answers. In fact if you'd like I can make a post specifically on each set of questions so you can fully handle this misguided soul...LOL...

    Peace!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I already did.

      "Proverbs 18:2 - “A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.”

      LOL...

      Delete

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